Federal judge blocks mandates for healthcare workers

[jpevans]

Again, I am not anti vax. I am anti mandate. For the record, I have been vaccinated but I don't believe in forcing someone to be vaccinated that does not wish to be. If the vaccine was a cure then I could get on board with a mandate, but it is not. I personally know of people who were vaccinated and contracted Covid just like folks that I know that have not been vaccinated and contracted Covid.

I noticed you did not address any of the rest of my post. Are you on board with forced vaccinations to receive government assistance or to enter the country?

These misinformed idiots who are clogging the countries ICU's are a clear & present danger to the medical establishment, as well as the rest of us. I've been vaccinated & boostered, but I have no spleen & other medical issues that make me a prime target for complications from COVID. It's a human connection that these selfish MFers are missing, until Bob Enyart, Marc Bernier, Phil Valentine, Dr. Jimmy DeYoung Sr., & Dick Farrel, die of COVID-19, all 5 radio hosts & adimate anti-Vaxxers.

You obviously have not paid attention to any of the information related to vaccines. If the vaccine will make the virus disappear, how is that people who have been vaccinated have contracted Covid?

Because there is still a large contingent of unvaxxed keeping it speading, mutating, killing.

 

[Rawley]

You cannot catch a heart attack. Heart attacks are not contagious.

Gvt could significantly reduce the number of heart attacks. Outlaw cigarettes. Mandates diet, mandated exercise.

 

[roguenuke]

Gvt could significantly reduce the number of heart attacks. Outlaw cigarettes. Mandates diet, mandated exercise.

Which doesn't change that there is a difference between mandating a vaccine that will protect everyone in a general way and mandating life styles. One is considered reasonably acceptable intrusion by government, the other isn't. And this is evident from a lot of precedent.

 

[Rawley]

Which doesn't change that there is a difference between mandating a vaccine that will protect everyone in a general way and mandating life styles. One is considered reasonably acceptable intrusion by government, the other isn't. And this is evident from a lot of precedent.

You find it reasonable.. Tens of millions of us find it the height of gvt. intrustion - injecting citizen with drugs that they don't want and in many cases don't need.

 

[roguenuke]

You find it reasonable.. Tens of millions of us find it the height of gvt. intrustion - injecting citizen with drugs that they don't want and in many cases don't need.

That is a reasonable person standard. Those millions (would love to see some actual evidence for your numbers) aren't necessary reasonable themselves.

Vaccine mandates are part of our lives and have been for a while. Ignoring that fact doesn't change it.

 

[OpportunityCost]

No, they aren't. One of those blocked was for healthcare employees, and there is a huge problem with the logic in blocking that one when many of those same employees are under other vaccine mandates. 4 states have flu vaccine mandates for healthcare employees.

Its going on 2 years. Emergency measures should have occurred long, long ago.

I have no problems with the states ordering vaccine mandates as long as they come from the legislature, the health department, or the governor.

The largest problem I have with your answer is you deflected instead of answering any of the concerns I brought up.

 

[OpportunityCost]

That is a reasonable person standard. Those millions (would love to see some actual evidence for your numbers) aren't necessary reasonable themselves.

Vaccine mandates are part of our lives and have been for a while. Ignoring that fact doesn't change it.

If some disagree that is not a reasonable person standard. According to vaccination numbers it would be around 1 in 3 that do not. Your standard is false.

 

[OpportunityCost]

These misinformed idiots who are clogging the countries ICU's are a clear & present danger to the medical establishment, as well as the rest of us. I've been vaccinated & boostered, but I have no spleen & other medical issues that make me a prime target for complications from COVID. It's a human connection that these selfish MFers are missing, until Bob Enyart, Marc Bernier, Phil Valentine, Dr. Jimmy DeYoung Sr., & Dick Farrel, die of COVID-19, all 5 radio hosts & adimate anti-Vaxxers.

Because there is still a large contingent of unvaxxed keeping it speading, mutating, killing.

First US Omnicron case was a fully vaccinated person. Your perception of what is going on has some holes in it.

 

[roguenuke]

If some disagree that is not a reasonable person standard. According to vaccination numbers it would be around 1 in 3 that do not. Your standard is false.

No, that is not how reasonable person standard works at all. It is recognized that some will disagree.

You can't base it off of "vaccination numbers" since many of those may believe in the "shots for thee but not me" depending on where a person works, what they do.

 

[mrjurrs]

Yeah, this state is a mess.


Working on it. We just took out the state senate president and replaced him with a guy that ran a campaign with only a few thousand dollars and several pairs of shoes. Literally nothing but walking door to door and one ad filmed on an iPhone.

Proud to know Ed and call him a friend. He will serve NJ well.

Picked up a few other state legislative seats the same way. Old school door knocking and taking to people, not any sort of fancy politics or ads or big money.

Let’s see what we can do in 2022 and further.

"...took out..."

That's the same phrase Congressional R's are crying about when they try to make equivalent their violence inciting rhetoric with what D's said. Did you mean you assassinated him? Of course not.

 

[SCrider]

I don't care that you're against mandates. I'm against the pandemic dragging on year after year after year.

It's weird that conservatives have picked team COVID to root for.

 

[OpportunityCost]

No, that is not how reasonable person standard works at all. It is recognized that some will disagree.

You can't base it off of "vaccination numbers" since many of those may believe in the "shots for thee but not me" depending on where a person works, what they do.

People who have already had Covid have little need to be vaccinated against it. It is unreasonable for them to incur additional risk when they have antibodies already. They have examined the situation and have taken action, in a reasonable way. It is just not the way you want it to happen.

The standard is to examine negligence. Examine a situation, take appropriate action.

Forcing a mandate as a condition of employment should mean risk factors then fall on the government should side effects or long term effects occur---that isn't happening. There is your unreasonable risk. Especially for those who have contracted covid already.

Before you go there, I have had 2 doses and will be scheduling a booster. My argument is examination of the point of view of those who feel the choices are theirs to make.

 

[roguenuke]

People who have already had Covid have little need to be vaccinated against it. It is unreasonable for them to incur additional risk when they have antibodies already. They have examined the situation and have taken action, in a reasonable way. It is just not the way you want it to happen.

The standard is to examine negligence. Examine a situation, take appropriate action.

Forcing a mandate as a condition of employment should mean risk factors then fall on the government should side effects or long term effects occur---that isn't happening. There is your unreasonable risk. Especially for those who have contracted covid already.

Before you go there, I have had 2 doses and will be scheduling a booster. My argument is examination of the point of view of those who feel the choices are theirs to make.

Except that we know that their resistance to covid does not last and is not absolute. They can get it again, and with Omicron, are very likely to get it again. The best protection for those who have had a covid infection is to still get the vaccine because it does give even more protection.

Even when it comes to flu shot mandates, they are not allowed to say "well I already had the flu". That is not a valid reason to not get the flu shot, which is mandated by many employers in that person's state.

 

[Helix]

It's weird that conservatives have picked team COVID to root for.

During the swine flu about twelve years ago, the anti-vax woo woo crowd was fairly every split. It trended more liberal, if anything. This time, it's a big right wing issue. The precious got the shot and even takes credit for its development. Their position makes little sense.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Except that we know that their resistance to covid does not last and is not absolute. They can get it again, and with Omicron, are very likely to get it again. The best protection for those who have had a covid infection is to still get the vaccine because it does give even more protection.

Even when it comes to flu shot mandates, they are not allowed to say "well I already had the flu". That is not a valid reason to not get the flu shot, which is mandated by many employers in that person's state.

The vaccine is not absolute and does not last. Omnicron is notorious for breakthrough infections.

Lets examine what occurred, we went from free to lockdown, to you don't get health choices, to you become unemployable and unable to use anything but basic functions. Its authoritarian as hell. You don't get why people are finally saying enough?

 

[roguenuke]

The vaccine is not absolute and does not last. Omnicron is notorious for breakthrough infections.

Lets examine what occurred, we went from free to lockdown, to you don't get health choices, to you become unemployable and unable to use anything but basic functions. Its authoritarian as hell. You don't get why people are finally saying enough?

I know why so many are saying "I don't want to get vaccinated" and it isn't because of having enough or any BS like that, because those same people (many of them, not all) have had no issue with other vaccine mandates, restrictions for health in the past. They are complaining because they are being led around by their political beliefs online and led to believe in stupid conspiracy theories.

 

[OpportunityCost]

I know why so many are saying "I don't want to get vaccinated" and it isn't because of having enough or any BS like that, because those same people (many of them, not all) have had no issue with other vaccine mandates, restrictions for health in the past. They are complaining because they are being led around by their political beliefs online and led to believe in stupid conspiracy theories.

Really, you want to go with 1 in 8 black people and 1 in 5 Hispanic people being unvaccinated based on politics? You keep deflecting, maybe you could try answering my contentions instead of avoiding them.

 

[roguenuke]

Really, you want to go with 1 in 8 black people and 1 in 5 Hispanic people being unvaccinated based on politics? You keep deflecting, maybe you could try answering my contentions instead of avoiding them.

Are you saying that none of those people could possibly be conservatives?

And you would need to show evidence that all of them fit into your view of the unvaccinated being that way due to "people are finally saying enough".

 

[roguenuke]

Really, you want to go with 1 in 8 black people and 1 in 5 Hispanic people being unvaccinated based on politics? You keep deflecting, maybe you could try answering my contentions instead of avoiding them.

Also, according to the CDC, white people are the ones coming in lowest for percentage receiving first shot (58%) compared to percentage of population (61%). Black people make up 12% of the population, but 10% of those who received first shot. Hispanics make up 17% of population but 19% of those received first shot.

Latest Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

KFF is collecting and analyzing data on COVID-19 vaccinations by race/ethnicity to gain increased insight who is receiving the vaccine and whether some groups are facing disparities in vaccination.

www.kff.org

 

[OpportunityCost]

Also, according to the CDC, white people are the ones coming in lowest for percentage receiving first shot (58%) compared to percentage of population (61%). Black people make up 12% of the population, but 10% of those who received first shot. Hispanics make up 17% of population but 19% of those received first shot.

Latest Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

KFF is collecting and analyzing data on COVID-19 vaccinations by race/ethnicity to gain increased insight who is receiving the vaccine and whether some groups are facing disparities in vaccination.

www.kff.org

Moving goalposts, how surprising. What was your original contention? Go back and read it and then forget you tried to change the argument.

 

[roguenuke]

Moving goalposts, how surprising. What was your original contention? Go back and read it and then forget you tried to change the argument.

You mean the statement that started with qualifying this "because those same people (many of them, not all)". You are the one who missed that qualifying part where it isn't all of those, but a good percentage of them are doing it based on politics. There is a recognized red/blue divide in vaccination rates.

The Red/Blue Divide in COVID-19 Vaccination Rates | KFF

This post examines a growing COVID-19 vaccine gap in Red and Blue America, with the share of the population that have been fully vaccinated in counties that voted for President Biden in 2020 increasing more rapidly than the share in counties that voted for President Trump.

www.kff.org

For COVID-19 vaccinations, party affiliation matters more than race and ethnicity | Brookings

There's no reason to believe that these gaps in vaccination rates will disappear anytime soon.

www.brookings.edu

 

[OpportunityCost]

Are you saying that none of those people could possibly be conservatives?

And you would need to show evidence that all of them fit into your view of the unvaccinated being that way due to "people are finally saying enough".

First, the number will be vanishingly small on conservative minorities, according to voting patterns. A mandate which states they will not be able to work will be a tipping point that will extend beyond party boundaries.

Think about how far that is going. Its a way to create a class system within the US with the unvaccinated becoming the unwashed and have rights just taken away from them, they don't get a choice. Examine it. Then, imagine another issue being treated the same way.

 

[Relsdm]

Military is mandated to get the flu shot every year. I know because that is the only reason I got the flu shot the 20 years I was in the service. The year after I retired, Covid hit, and so I got the flu shot last year and this year too (and likely will from now on).

But in fact 4 states have laws that mandate flu shots for all healthcare workers. In fact, Alabama is one of them. But individual healthcare providers are also allowed to mandate flu vaccines for their employees as well.

There is a difference in employer required mandates and a federally required mandate.
Even while the military was making that requirement, what other federal employees were required to be vaccinated?

As a general rule, I do not have an issue with mandates an employer may impose on their employees. For example, dress codes. I do have an issue when that mandate requires someone to undergo a medical procedure. If a healthcare facility required vaccinations when an employee was hired, I do not have an issue with that extending to covid vaccination.

 

[OpportunityCost]

You mean the statement that started with qualifying this "because those same people (many of them, not all)". You are the one who missed that qualifying part where it isn't all of those, but a good percentage of them are doing it based on politics. There is a recognized red/blue divide in vaccination rates.

The Red/Blue Divide in COVID-19 Vaccination Rates | KFF

This post examines a growing COVID-19 vaccine gap in Red and Blue America, with the share of the population that have been fully vaccinated in counties that voted for President Biden in 2020 increasing more rapidly than the share in counties that voted for President Trump.

www.kff.org

For COVID-19 vaccinations, party affiliation matters more than race and ethnicity | Brookings

There's no reason to believe that these gaps in vaccination rates will disappear anytime soon.

www.brookings.edu

More, but not absolute. Again the mandate will be a tipping point as being given the choice of take the vaccination or become someone with little to no rights will be seen as authoritarian.

 

[roguenuke]

First, the number will be vanishingly small on conservative minorities, according to voting patterns. A mandate which states they will not be able to work will be a tipping point that will extend beyond party boundaries.

Think about how far that is going. Its a way to create a class system within the US with the unvaccinated becoming the unwashed and have rights just taken away from them, they don't get a choice. Examine it. Then, imagine another issue being treated the same way.

Many, many people have started getting their vaccines due to mandates.

COVID-19 Vaccines

Vaccines are seen as one of the best ways to stop COVID-19. Learn more about the types of vaccines, including the newly approved Novavax.

www.webmd.com

I personally know someone who got vaccinated because of the mandate.

We have not had any pandemic, public health concern anywhere close to this in decades, if not a century (depends on view of smallpox mandates).

You haven't had your rights taken away on this.