Federal Air Marshal fires weapon on a plane

[libertarian_knight]

......and this means what exactly?
Do you fly much? I never pay attention to what passengers are saying while boarding unless they scream it in my face. Heck, I rarely know what the person sitting next to me looks like until after we're airborne. FAMs are trained and paid to be aware of these things and it appears that in thise case that they were.

Alpizar was bipolar and did not take his medication according to his wife. VERY bad idea to board a commercial aircraft under those circumstances don't ya think? Alpizar's wife said she felt it was her fault, that she had convinced him to get on board, that he wasn't ready.

In hindsight, it appears she is correct.

You mean a man running down the isle, followed by a yelling woman, confronted by another man claiming to be a Federal Air Marshall (the guy who was sitting right next to, in front of, across the isle from, or behind you) wouldn't get your attention? The FAM wasn't dressed like a steward, and the man wasn't behaving like a normal passanger. And besides, most normal people are even aware when the person next to them drops their magazine, let alone bolts up to confront another passager.

Maybe Alpazar and the FAM were whispering, secretly, so as not to disturb anyone lese.... right.

Unless, maybe the FAM was just not paying attention, like you do. Could be why so many FAMs quit, they get bored and sloppy.

 

[vergiss]

1. The man was shot on the ground not the plane as I stated before. So the title of the thread is wrong.

2.There was a claim of a bomb and a chase then a reaching into the bag... was a solid call for the marshalls

Yeah, a claim the FAMs made up. Hey, if I pretend you said you claimed to have a bomb, can I shoot you? :roll:

 

[wrath]

You mean a man running down the isle, followed by a yelling woman, confronted by another man claiming to be a Federal Air Marshall (the guy who was sitting right next to, in front of, across the isle from, or behind you) wouldn't get your attention? The FAM wasn't dressed like a steward, and the man wasn't behaving like a normal passanger. And besides, most normal people are even aware when the person next to them drops their magazine, let alone bolts up to confront another passager.

Maybe Alpazar and the FAM were whispering, secretly, so as not to disturb anyone lese.... right.

Unless, maybe the FAM was just not paying attention, like you do. Could be why so many FAMs quit, they get bored and sloppy.

Oh, I see! So what we really need are mind reading FAMs so in the few seconds they have to react, they can weed out the bipolar guys that will not respond to a FAMs demands to stop because they are not taking their meds, really dont have a bag full of explosives and are not reaching in that bag to detonate it. Well thanks for clearing that up. :roll:
Something tells me you would be saying the same thing if the guy was for real and took out half the plane. FAM's got bored and sloppy! The only difference is you'd be right.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Yeah, a claim the FAMs made up. Hey, if I pretend you said you claimed to have a bomb, can I shoot you? :roll:

O no.......... it's a conspiracy.. Put your tinfoil hat on verg and sit in the corner with the 9/11 freaks

 

[libertarian_knight]

O no.......... it's a conspiracy.. Put your tinfoil hat on verg and sit in the corner with the 9/11 freaks

Why does it have to be a conspiracy? The FAM could just be a liar, and the agency just believe him. Gosh, a government agent lying, after killing a man, that would NEVER HAPPEN... oh no. apologist.

 

[KCConservative]

Why does it have to be a conspiracy? The FAM could just be a liar, and the agency just believe him. Gosh, a government agent lying, after killing a man, that would NEVER HAPPEN... oh no. apologist.

Except that there were witnesses who say he claimed to have a bomb. When someone like that reaches into his backpag, you shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[Deegan]

I hope that we can at least take something from this tragedy, like possibly asking folks if they are on any medication, or off any. This may very well save lives in the future, and at least alert any FAM's if they are on board, that they have a mentally challenged person on the plane. I don't see why this would be such a hard thing to enact, will see I guess.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Oh, I see! So what we really need are mind reading FAMs so in the few seconds they have to react, they can weed out the bipolar guys that will not respond to a FAMs demands to stop because they are not taking their meds, really dont have a bag full of explosives and are not reaching in that bag to detonate it. Well thanks for clearing that up. :roll:
Something tells me you would be saying the same thing if the guy was for real and took out half the plane. FAM's got bored and sloppy! The only difference is you'd be right.

What do you mean? The FAM could have waited four hundred years and that bag would have never detonated. I mean really how stupid does someone have to be, to imagine the terrorist is getting OFF the plane he just boarded, using the same Jetway he just walked through, to blow up a bomb. Again, how come it seems the only one talking about a bomb was the FAM?

you, as passanger on a plane, having just settled in, next to another guy, hear a third man and woman yelling. Your nieghbor confronts the man, Identifies himself as a Federal Air Marshall, and you take no notice of anything? Nor does anyone else? Mysterious questions you dodged.

OHH it must be the Men In Black, Tommy Lee Jones Swooped in and used the mind eraser ray on the passangers so that they never heard Alpzar mention a bomb, and never felt afraid there was a bomb!.... that's it. Of course, the FAM who's mind was unaffected because of his strenuous training and sleek protective eyeware... what the f***.

Yeah, it would be great to live in a FANTASY WORLD, where Alpzar was really Osama bin Laden's retarded terrorist cousin!

How come the best defenses you guys have are fictions and hypotheticals? What's wrong with facts? Oh, you can't apologize for facts?

You know what's worse, I think the FAM was in a s*** spot, and made a MISTAKE, and the more I talk to the lunatic apologists, the more I think the man have been crimminaly negligent. The worst I would have thought should happen to the FAM is getting fired, but jail time seems more appropriate by the slew of lies and misinformation that his defenders spew.

If the FAM did nothing wrong, then STICK TO THE FACTS, not fictions. Unless, maybe you know he did something very wrong, and want to apologize for him, because killing an american citizen makes you feel safer.

Jesus Christ was supposed to be our last Human Sacrifice, why do you all keep demanding more?

 

[libertarian_knight]

Except that there were witnesses who say he claimed to have a bomb. When someone like that reaches into his backpag, you shoot first and ask questions later.

yeah? post it. a link or a transcript, or video clip of a non-FAM witness to the events. A passanger, or steward, anything. Not a reporter repeating offical statements, not an FAM spokeperson, and not a pundit. an actual WITNESS. You must have read, heard, or seen it to say with certainty as you did.

In this thread, on other forums, in Web, Radio and TV news I have yet to hear an actuallt witness say ANYTHING other that "they saw the man run down the isle and a woman screaming after him." THAT'S IT. I did a search through yahoo news, and others and I can't find it.

It very well may exist, and it may be true. I am not saying that is is a complete falsehood. But I have yet to have heard of an actual witness refer to a bomb, though I have read several witness statements that they heard NO MENTION of a bomb (which also doesn't make it that Alpizar never claimed he had a bomb, they just may not have heard). When no one (to my limited knowledge) actually corroborates the claim made by the FAMs, then doesn't that FAM statement bear closer scuritiny and suspiscion?

Unless is a vast airplane-wing conspiracy on the part of the passangers to tarnish the reputation of the Federal Air Marshalls.

 

[libertarian_knight]

I hope that we can at least take something from this tragedy, like possibly asking folks if they are on any medication, or off any. This may very well save lives in the future, and at least alert any FAM's if they are on board, that they have a mentally challenged person on the plane. I don't see why this would be such a hard thing to enact, will see I guess.

So the FAA should have access to medical records?

 

[Deegan]

So the FAA should have access to medical records?

Not at all, a simple question before boarding, or when purchasing your ticket. This would be for your safety, and for those on the plane with you, a heads up, if you will.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Not at all, a simple question before boarding, or when purchasing your ticket. This would be for your safety, and for those on the plane with you, a heads up, if you will.

The idea is noble enough, but I don't think it's sufficiently practical to prevent an occurance like this.

The FAMs are undercover. I would be necessary in some way, to communicate the information aquired at boarding, to the FAM, which may in fact blow thier cover. Either by pattern of behavior, or by tool or impliement.

If someone actually informs the FAM about a person, maybe introduces them, it could expose the FAM. If the FAMs are issued a device, say one that transmits picture or information, and that device is standard issue, that would be a kin to displaying the badge. Also, secuirty of the information or transmittal methods would be a concern to. Someone may be able to intercept or override such transmissions, or even broadcast false or misleading information.

the whole point of the FAM is secrecy and surprise. Giving last minute info to the FAM could disable that. Terrorists are trained to observe things too.

 

[Deegan]

The idea is noble enough, but I don't think it's sufficiently practical to prevent an occurance like this.

The FAMs are undercover. I would be necessary in some way, to communicate the information aquired at boarding, to the FAM, which may in fact blow thier cover. Either by pattern of behavior, or by tool or impliement.

If someone actually informs the FAM about a person, maybe introduces them, it could expose the FAM. If the FAMs are issued a device, say one that transmits picture or information, and that device is standard issue, that would be a kin to displaying the badge. Also, secuirty of the information or transmittal methods would be a concern to. Someone may be able to intercept or override such transmissions, or even broadcast false or misleading information.

the whole point of the FAM is secrecy and surprise. Giving last minute info to the FAM could disable that. Terrorists are trained to observe things too.

I was thinking more of just the flight crew being aware, then they could pass that infomation along, but only if and when the FAM had exposed himself. I don't know, I just don't want to see sick folks being killed on airplanes, and I hope something is learned from the death of this poor man.

 

[libertarian_knight]

I was thinking more of just the flight crew being aware, then they could pass that infomation along, but only if and when the FAM had exposed himself. I don't know, I just don't want to see sick folks being killed on airplanes, and I hope something is learned from the death of this poor man.

Ahh, ok, so the flight crew could attempt to intercede the FAM and a passanger, should they be aware of a discolsed problem. Certainly more reasonable.

Yeah, agree, sick folks or healthy folk being killed unduly is not something I want to see, airplane or otherwise.
===
Another thing, i wonder to what extent his illness actually affected his life. I mean a lot of people seem to think this guy was an wholly unstable, drooling at the mouth, psycho. But some bi-polar people can function well enough without meds, some can't. People have often refered to this poor man as a loonie, which leads me to believe they have little to no clue about the disorder.

There are also many non-bipolar people who suffer from calusterphobia, airsickness, and panic attacks which strike them when they wouldn't expect it. Even poeple that have flow for years can get sketchy about flying from time to time.

 

[Deegan]

Ahh, ok, so the flight crew could attempt to intercede the FAM and a passanger, should they be aware of a discolsed problem. Certainly more reasonable.

Yeah, agree, sick folks or healthy folk being killed unduly is not something I want to see, airplane or otherwise.
===
Another thing, i wonder to what extent his illness actually affected his life. I mean a lot of people seem to think this guy was an wholly unstable, drooling at the mouth, psycho. But some bi-polar people can function well enough without meds, some can't. People have often refered to this poor man as a loonie, which leads me to believe they have little to no clue about the disorder.

There are also many non-bipolar people who suffer from calusterphobia, airsickness, and panic attacks which strike them when they wouldn't expect it. Even poeple that have flow for years can get sketchy about flying from time to time.

Like me, I have panic attacks in tight spots, nothing extreme, but I have started sweating, and become very nervous before. This is another thing you could make known before boarding, maybe I will next time, I certainly don't want to get shot.:shock:

 

[wrath]

What do you mean? The FAM could have waited four hundred years and that bag would have never detonated. I mean really how stupid does someone have to be, to imagine the terrorist is getting OFF the plane he just boarded, using the same Jetway he just walked through, to blow up a bomb. Again, how come it seems the only one talking about a bomb was the FAM?

you, as passanger on a plane, having just settled in, next to another guy, hear a third man and woman yelling. Your nieghbor confronts the man, Identifies himself as a Federal Air Marshall, and you take no notice of anything? Nor does anyone else? Mysterious questions you dodged.

OHH it must be the Men In Black, Tommy Lee Jones Swooped in and used the mind eraser ray on the passangers so that they never heard Alpzar mention a bomb, and never felt afraid there was a bomb!.... that's it. Of course, the FAM who's mind was unaffected because of his strenuous training and sleek protective eyeware... what the f***.

Yeah, it would be great to live in a FANTASY WORLD, where Alpzar was really Osama bin Laden's retarded terrorist cousin!

How come the best defenses you guys have are fictions and hypotheticals? What's wrong with facts? Oh, you can't apologize for facts?

You know what's worse, I think the FAM was in a s*** spot, and made a MISTAKE, and the more I talk to the lunatic apologists, the more I think the man have been crimminaly negligent. The worst I would have thought should happen to the FAM is getting fired, but jail time seems more appropriate by the slew of lies and misinformation that his defenders spew.

If the FAM did nothing wrong, then STICK TO THE FACTS, not fictions. Unless, maybe you know he did something very wrong, and want to apologize for him, because killing an american citizen makes you feel safer.

Jesus Christ was supposed to be our last Human Sacrifice, why do you all keep demanding more?

Fine, you think that the FAM made a mistake! Based on what I've read on the circumstances, I couldn't disagree with you more. You're free to make all the irrational accusations you want. Until the authorities prove otherwise, you'll have to forgive me for not drinking your koolaid.

I do, however, think that Deegan has a very good idea with respect to passengers being required to make the crew aware of a condition like his. Currently, most airlines including American suggest in their policies that passengers make the airline aware of any physical or mental disabilities at the time of ticket purchase. As his condition certainly qualified, I would make it a mandatory policy.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Fine, you think that the FAM made a mistake! Based on what I've read on the circumstances, I couldn't disagree with you more. You're free to make all the irrational accusations you want. Until the authorities prove otherwise, you'll have to forgive me for not drinking your koolaid.

I do, however, think that Deegan has a very good idea with respect to passengers being required to make the crew aware of a condition like his. Currently, most airlines including American suggest in their policies that passengers make the airline aware of any physical or mental disabilities at the time of ticket purchase. As his condition certainly qualified, I would make it a mandatory policy.

OK, you do understand that the "koolaid" drinker comment is about one who blindly and obediently follows authority right? I find it funny, how actual authoirty WORSHIPERS call non-worshippers "Koolaid Drinkers." If that isn't denial I don't know what it. The AUTORITIES said he said he had a bomb, and people's idolotry would not allow for room, to even ADMIT, that the idol could be wrong. The Koolaid being drunk comes from the government cup. I say I refuse to drink, and bam, I am magically a drinker, and the people with red lips and poison in the minds, are really the free one.

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Skepticism is Following?

See, I have NEVER said, drink what I offer. I have ONLY said, be wary of what you drink.

Of course, I do the unreasonable act of asking people to believe if facts and logic. Sometimes even accurately state what the facts are (to the best of my knowledge). Such as, the Federal Air Marshall Spokesman first stated publically the claim, the Alpizar had a bomb.

See, the FAM DID make a mistake, it may even be a mistake that would occur 999,999,999 times out of 1 billion (which of course it wasn't), but it ws still a mistake. He MISTOOK a sick man, for a terrorist.

So now people must manditorily report, publicly, their illnesses? Even with people around to imagine people who are bi-polar should be in a looney bin with a stright jacket? I guess the authorities are more important than privacy or dignity... a follower would believe that.

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY AUTHORITY, BRINGER OF THE UNDRUNK-NONKOOLAID!

 

[wrath]

OK, you do understand that the "koolaid" drinker comment is about one who blindly and obediently follows authority right? I find it funny, how actual authoirty WORSHIPERS call non-worshippers "Koolaid Drinkers." If that isn't denial I don't know what it. The AUTORITIES said he said he had a bomb, and people's idolotry would not allow for room, to even ADMIT, that the idol could be wrong. The Koolaid being drunk comes from the government cup. I say I refuse to drink, and bam, I am magically a drinker, and the people with red lips and poison in the minds, are really the free one.

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Skepticism is Following?

See, I have NEVER said, drink what I offer. I have ONLY said, be wary of what you drink.

Of course, I do the unreasonable act of asking people to believe if facts and logic. Sometimes even accurately state what the facts are (to the best of my knowledge). Such as, the Federal Air Marshall Spokesman first stated publically the claim, the Alpizar had a bomb.

See, the FAM DID make a mistake, it may even be a mistake that would occur 999,999,999 times out of 1 billion (which of course it wasn't), but it ws still a mistake. He MISTOOK a sick man, for a terrorist.

So now people must manditorily report, publicly, their illnesses? Even with people around to imagine people who are bi-polar should be in a looney bin with a stright jacket? I guess the authorities are more important than privacy or dignity... a follower would believe that.

ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY AUTHORITY, BRINGER OF THE UNDRUNK-NONKOOLAID!

So what are you suggesting here Almighty Knower of All Things? Did the FAM shoot this guy knowing that he was just mentally unstable and nothing more? Did he make up everything just so he could cap someone? So under these circumstances, you would wait and see if he actually has a bomb yes? Then when you run into someone that does, the last thing going through your mind as he blows you all to hell is why he didn't stop when you aked him too!

As for reporting your condition to the airline. Did I say report it to all the passengers? DID I? No I did not. If you are planning on flying and you could be a risk to the passengers and crew then you should be obligated to make sure the crew are aware of this so as not to be mistaken for something else....GET IT? I suspect not.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Why does it have to be a conspiracy? The FAM could just be a liar, and the agency just believe him. Gosh, a government agent lying, after killing a man, that would NEVER HAPPEN... oh no. apologist.

LOL ... LIberal = It's everybody elses fault but mine....

They did the right thing

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I hope that we can at least take something from this tragedy, like possibly asking folks if they are on any medication, or off any. This may very well save lives in the future, and at least alert any FAM's if they are on board, that they have a mentally challenged person on the plane. I don't see why this would be such a hard thing to enact, will see I guess.

Can't do that the ACLU will sue the airlines for violating there right to privacy. There not much concerned if you die as long as your civili rights are in tact as the fireball melts your skin off and the plane crashes 3000 feet a second into a suburban neihgborhood playground

 

[Calm2Chaos]

What do you mean? The FAM could have waited four hundred years and that bag would have never detonated. I mean really how stupid does someone have to be, to imagine the terrorist is getting OFF the plane he just boarded, using the same Jetway he just walked through, to blow up a bomb. Again, how come it seems the only one talking about a bomb was the FAM?

you, as passanger on a plane, having just settled in, next to another guy, hear a third man and woman yelling. Your nieghbor confronts the man, Identifies himself as a Federal Air Marshall, and you take no notice of anything? Nor does anyone else? Mysterious questions you dodged.

OHH it must be the Men In Black, Tommy Lee Jones Swooped in and used the mind eraser ray on the passangers so that they never heard Alpzar mention a bomb, and never felt afraid there was a bomb!.... that's it. Of course, the FAM who's mind was unaffected because of his strenuous training and sleek protective eyeware... what the f***.

Yeah, it would be great to live in a FANTASY WORLD, where Alpzar was really Osama bin Laden's retarded terrorist cousin!

How come the best defenses you guys have are fictions and hypotheticals? What's wrong with facts? Oh, you can't apologize for facts?

You know what's worse, I think the FAM was in a s*** spot, and made a MISTAKE, and the more I talk to the lunatic apologists, the more I think the man have been crimminaly negligent. The worst I would have thought should happen to the FAM is getting fired, but jail time seems more appropriate by the slew of lies and misinformation that his defenders spew.

If the FAM did nothing wrong, then STICK TO THE FACTS, not fictions. Unless, maybe you know he did something very wrong, and want to apologize for him, because killing an american citizen makes you feel safer.

Jesus Christ was supposed to be our last Human Sacrifice, why do you all keep demanding more?

Claimed to have a bomb.. reached in his bag.... got shot..... Good call.... Don't see the problem here

 

[Calm2Chaos]

yeah? post it. a link or a transcript, or video clip of a non-FAM witness to the events. A passanger, or steward, anything. Not a reporter repeating offical statements, not an FAM spokeperson, and not a pundit. an actual WITNESS. You must have read, heard, or seen it to say with certainty as you did.

In this thread, on other forums, in Web, Radio and TV news I have yet to hear an actuallt witness say ANYTHING other that "they saw the man run down the isle and a woman screaming after him." THAT'S IT. I did a search through yahoo news, and others and I can't find it.

It very well may exist, and it may be true. I am not saying that is is a complete falsehood. But I have yet to have heard of an actual witness refer to a bomb, though I have read several witness statements that they heard NO MENTION of a bomb (which also doesn't make it that Alpizar never claimed he had a bomb, they just may not have heard). When no one (to my limited knowledge) actually corroborates the claim made by the FAMs, then doesn't that FAM statement bear closer scuritiny and suspiscion?

Unless is a vast airplane-wing conspiracy on the part of the passangers to tarnish the reputation of the Federal Air Marshalls.

But of course the FAM is lying.. figures

Amazing how liberals are willing to believe anyone that doesn't have to make the decisions. Terrorist are right soldiers wrong, man with bomb right FAM wrong. So if there was a bomb and it was big enough to take out the plane and 300 people died. Then exactly who's fault would it have been. I am guessing thats when you change your tune to it was again the FAM's fault for not assesing the situation fast enough and shooting the deranged man claiming to have a gun.

 

[vergiss]

I hope that we can at least take something from this tragedy, like possibly asking folks if they are on any medication, or off any. This may very well save lives in the future, and at least alert any FAM's if they are on board, that they have a mentally challenged person on the plane.

People with bipolar disorder are not "mentally challenged", you ignorant moron! Look it up, it's not a bloody retardation!

 

[Calm2Chaos]

People with bipolar disorder are not "mentally challenged", you ignorant moron! Look it up, it's not a bloody retardation!

After that outburst vergiss I think you possibly may have a little bi-polar disorder.. Go take you medication...lol calm down hon beofre ya blow a gasket

 

[vergiss]

After that outburst vergiss I think you possibly may have a little bi-polar disorder..

No s*it Sherlock.