Fatal Inaction (One Soldier's Story) (1 Viewer)

[hipsterdufus]

There is no excuse for this from our leaders.

Fatal Inaction

By April Witt
Sunday, June 18, 2006; Page W08

The world's most powerful military failed to provide the armor that would have saved scores of American lives. One father would like to know why

Private 1st Class John Hart whispered into the phone so he wouldn't be overheard. It was just a matter of time, he said, before his buddies and he bumped down some back road in Iraq right into an ambush. They were so exposed, the somber young soldier told his dad, back home in Bedford, Mass. They were riding around in unarmored Humvees with canvas tops and gaping openings on the sides where doors should be. That seemed pretty stupid now that people were shooting at them and lobbing rockets. John, a 20-year-old gunner whose job it was to keep his head up and return fire, felt hung out in the breeze.

/snip

This was not the first time John had confided that the U.S. military was failing to provide him with essential equipment. In previous calls home, Brian recalls, John recounted a bewildering array of shortages and snafus. Before landing in Iraq that scorching July, John told his father, he'd been issued a winter-weight camouflage suit, body armor with protective plates too small to shield his broad chest, and a broken rifle. An expert marksman and former co-captain of the Bedford High School shooting team, John had been told to conserve scarce bullets by not taking practice shots to sight his weapon, he said. Summertime water rations were so inadequate that guys were passing out in the Iraqi heat.

/snip

"I'm like, uh, why are they sending us?" Williams recalls. "We were returning kitchen equipment. We were not combat-effective . . . You are going to investigate a rocket attack. So you know they have rockets. Why send guys in a rickety Humvee to chase guys who have rockets?"

/snip

THE NEXT MORNING in a tan clapboard house in Bedford, Brian Hart knew even before he saw the Army officer, policeman and Catholic priest standing stone-faced on his front stoop. He could hear Alma screaming, "N-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o!"

Full story here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/14/AR2006061401928.html

 

[RightinNYC]

This story has been hashed out over and over and over again. Those who desire to do so will continue to attempt to paint it as "The Bush Administration denied the soldiers the body armor they needed, resulting in their deaths."

The fact of the matter is, adding more body armor is not the solution.
Many, many, troops who have been deployed have come out AGAINST the proposals to increase armor, arguing that they add weight and hinder movement, decreasing the effectiveness and safety of US forces overall. People from both positions have logical arguments. Unfortunately, the truth is that no matter whether armor is increased, decreased, or stays the same, people will die. And sadly, no matter what happens, there will be those who will try to spin it to create news stories and make cheap political attacks.

It's just a shame that people continue to encourage them by listening to crap like this.

 

[hipsterdufus]

This story has been hashed out over and over and over again. Those who desire to do so will continue to attempt to paint it as "The Bush Administration denied the soldiers the body armor they needed, resulting in their deaths."

The fact of the matter is, adding more body armor is not the solution.
Many, many, troops who have been deployed have come out AGAINST the proposals to increase armor, arguing that they add weight and hinder movement, decreasing the effectiveness and safety of US forces overall. People from both positions have logical arguments. Unfortunately, the truth is that no matter whether armor is increased, decreased, or stays the same, people will die. And sadly, no matter what happens, there will be those who will try to spin it to create news stories and make cheap political attacks.

It's just a shame that people continue to encourage them by listening to crap like this.

I'm sorry you view the truth as "crap". This story is about a lot more than body armor. There is memo after memo of Rumsfeld turning down requests for more bullets, MREs, Kevlar Vests, Uparmored Humvees etc. It's pathetic and speaks directly to Rumsfeld's failed leadership in this war.

 

[Gill]

I'm sorry you view the truth as "crap". This story is about a lot more than body armor. There is memo after memo of Rumsfeld turning down requests for more bullets, MREs, Kevlar Vests, Uparmored Humvees etc. It's pathetic and speaks directly to Rumsfeld's failed leadership in this war.

There is grousing and complaining in every war and the leaders are always to blame. No matter what was supplied to the soldiers, there would be stories like this.

 

[hipsterdufus]

There is grousing and complaining in every war and the leaders are always to blame. No matter what was supplied to the soldiers, there would be stories like this.

Well then maybe it's time for us to re-examine why these failures of leadership are so commonplace.

Perhaps it would be a better use of Congress' time than debating gay marriage?

 

[Gill]

Well then maybe it's time for us to re-examine why these failures of leadership are so commonplace.

Perhaps it would be a better use of Congress' time than debating gay marriage?

yeah, why don't you suggest congressional hearings. They could start with the revolutionary war.. that's when it began.

 

[hipsterdufus]

yeah, why don't you suggest congressional hearings. They could start with the revolutionary war.. that's when it began.

I'll get right on it...

Hello, is this the Whitehouse? I'd like to schedule a congressional hearing on Rumsfeld's incompetence.

What's a good date to start?

Click....

 

[alphieb]

There is grousing and complaining in every war and the leaders are always to blame. No matter what was supplied to the soldiers, there would be stories like this.

Does that make it excusable? The leaders of our country should have that almost perfected. If they don't, they have no business being leaders.

 

[Gill]

Does that make it excusable? The leaders of our country should have that almost perfected. If they don't, they have no business being leaders.

Oh yeah, I forgot. 'Leaders' are perfect and infallible.

 

[alphieb]

Oh yeah, I forgot. 'Leaders' are perfect and infallible.

I never said perfect. I said "almost" at any rate they should be more organized and prepared. However, I can believe this soldiers story, afterall, look at the speedy reponse after Katrina.

 

[Deegan]

It is a shame that we can't get these soldiers the very best protection, and I happen to know that they are in many cases, having to buy this stuff themselves. This is an average cost of about 1,000 dollars per soldier, and that is a shame. That said, it's the same old story in every war, the government red tape keeps these things tied up in one staging area after another. This will likely not change anytime soon, it's best to do it yourself, and then get the money back from the Pentagon directly.

 

[RightinNYC]

I'm sorry you view the truth as "crap". This story is about a lot more than body armor. There is memo after memo of Rumsfeld turning down requests for more bullets, MREs, Kevlar Vests, Uparmored Humvees etc. It's pathetic and speaks directly to Rumsfeld's failed leadership in this war.

I don't see any evidence in that story that would appear to implicate Rumsfeld, as you claim. The things I DO see that are no surprise? Bureaucratic incompetency.

Eight months earlier, a committee of military medical experts had urged the Pentagon to give every soldier in the war a tourniquet. Bleeding to death from an arm or leg wound is the most common cause of preventable death in combat, the Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care reported. Quick access to a cheap, simple modern tourniquet could save many lives, military doctors had concluded. Yet it would be two more years before the U.S. Central Command, which runs combat operations in Iraq, adopted a policy saying all soldiers in combat should carry a tourniquet. Even then, the policy was moot because the Army didn't widely distribute tourniquets for several more months. An investigation by the Baltimore Sun spurred that distribution and documented one reason for the delay: Military procurement specialists were studying what kind of pouch to carry the new first aid kits with tourniquets in.

The U.S. military bureaucracy is like a giant overloaded ship that turns excruciatingly slowly -- even under fire. In May 2003 the first U.S. soldier in Iraq was killed by an improvised explosive device (IED). "It was about a week later before the second one showed up and about another week before the third one," Maj. Gen. Buford C. Blount, who led U.S. troops into Iraq from Kuwait at the start of the war, later told Congress. By mid-June it was clear "a pattern started to develop for IED usage," Blount testified. Yet it wasn't until November 2003 -- nearly five months later -- that the Army said it needed 3,780 armor kits to retrofit five types of trucks to protect the troops from IEDs. The Army did not produce all the kits until February 2005 and did not install them fully until May 2005 -- 18 months after it formally identified the need, the GAO found. By that time, however, the number of unarmored trucks in Iraq that needed retrofitting kits had skyrocketed, outstripping the supply.

This is the kind of **** that happens in any massive bureaucracy. It always has and always will happen. It's a horrible shame, but to blame it on Rumsfeld is political posturing of the worst kind. You ignore the millions of bureaucrats who no politician, be they from the left or the right, can completely reform.

Of course, it's not just you who seems to be using the events surrounding soldier's death for political platitudes.

Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) was planning to attend John's November 4 funeral. Brian contacted his office and asked if he and Kennedy could meet before the service to talk. Some of Brian's relatives were aghast. Brian grew up in a family of fundamentalist Christians who vote Republican. At the University of Texas, Brian was president of the campus Republicans. Now some of his Texas relatives warned Brian not to be seen with Kennedy, he recalls. Brian didn't care. To get answers, he needed allies. He even called John Kerry's presidential campaign; but nobody called back, he says. Kerry did send an aide to John's funeral.

Standing in an administrative office at Arlington, John Hart's grieving parents and Kennedy talked so long that they delayed the funeral 30 minutes. Kennedy promised that he would try to get the Senate Armed Services Committee to hold a hearing on equipment shortages.

 

[Stinger]

I'm sorry you view the truth as "crap". This story is about a lot more than body armor. There is memo after memo of Rumsfeld turning down requests for more bullets, MREs, Kevlar Vests, Uparmored Humvees etc. It's pathetic and speaks directly to Rumsfeld's failed leadership in this war.

Well how about this story which is an example of what happens when people who are not expert in military matters sudden think they are experts, sometimes we get "crap". The Humvee was not designed to be an armoured vehicle. Let the military leaders decide what we need and how it should ber designed, THEY are the experts not you or some senator.



Tom Walker/Eyewitness News There's a new report that the vehicles designed to protect our troops may actually pose a threat. Thousands of pounds of armor could make the Humvees tougher to control, increasing the chances of rolling over.
The Humvee has become virtually indispensible to the US mission in Iraq. But time after time, the Humvees involved in crashes have proven deadly to their occupants by rolling over.
Experts say it can be partly explained by the thousands of pounds of new armor ordered for the vehicles, ironically to protect the troops inside. It has made them top-heavy.
"If I get into a sudden turn, say if I'm trying to dodge a roadside bomb ahead, it's going to increase the probability that it's going to roll over," said John Pike, Global Security.org.
An analysis by the Dayton Daily News found that 60 of the 85 soldiers who died in Humvee accidents in Iraq, or 70 percent, were killed when the vehicle rolled. Of the 337 injuries, 149 occurred in rollovers.

http://story.indianapolispost.com/p.x/ct/9/id/d921cc1c67cfe333/cid/7b3aa09cdd5d5eac/


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[Caine]

Yeah, im tired of hearing stories about armor shortages.

Now, getting the Interceptor Ballistic Armor (IBA) for every soldier should NOT be a problem. There is no excuse for every soldier/marine/sailor/airman deployed into Iraq not having one. Now, with that said, I don't have an idea if they all have it or not. But I assume that with everyone whining about "body armor" that these units don't have it. Now, if they DO have the IBA, that is all they need, there is no reason why some whiney *** soldier (marine, etc) should expect to go out there looking like ****in' robocop or some ****. A helmet and the friggin' IBA is all they need.

Now for the HMMV, Having all that armor isn't practical. I actually prefered the "UN ARMORED" HMMV to the armored one. Besides, there ain't no such thing as an fully armored cargo truck, and it isn't practical to transport a company (around 150 troops for Army units) in only armored HMMV, why? Because those ****ing things only old 5 men per truck (thats with the gunner standing and 4 in the seats). So all this whining about armored HMMVs is dumb. You want armor? Do it like we did, fill up sandbags and lay the floor of your cargo truck with them, what about the sides? You still need to see to pull security asshole.

Armor ain't gonna be around for every mission, deal with it.
If soldiers die, well, thats the cost of doing business. It sucks, but Armor ain't always going to protect you anyways. We don't need to be so concerned with armor that we make ourselves non mission capable.

That is all for now.