Farm labor - from best to worst

Let’s look at some different forms of labor and how they affect the millions of Americans who buy food every day.


Best: Full automation. GPS guided tractors and similar tech bring labor costs per unit close to zero. That drives food prices down, making it affordable hundreds of millions of Americans.


Good: Cheap migrant labor. Labor costs are higher than automation but still relatively low. When automation isn’t feasible, cheap migrant labor helps keep food prices reasonable.


Bad: Domestic labor at high wages. While Americans can do farm work, most aren’t willing to do it for low wages. When employers must pay significantly more, the cost per unit rises sharply. This can raise food prices to the point where many low-income consumers struggle to feed their families, forcing them to sacrifice other essentials just to eat.


Worst: Unionized labor monopolies. When unions control the labor supply, they can and will demand inflated wages and benefits. In industries with tight margins like agriculture, that means soaring labor costs and a major spike in consumer prices. The result? Food would become unaffordable for hundreds of millions of Americans.

Of course, not every increase in labor cost results in a one to one increase in consumer prices. The degree to which costs are passed on depends on price elasticity - how sensitive food demand is to price changes. But for something essential like food, where demand is relatively inelastic, higher input costs will hit consumers very hard.

This pattern doesn’t just apply to agriculture - it’s a general rule across all industries. When labor costs are artificially inflated, prices rise, and consumers lose.

And remember, we are all consumers.

 

[aociswundumho]

Unions made this country great. End of story.

Allow me to demolish that ridiculous claim with one chart:

 

[Nickyjo]

Allow me to demolish that ridiculous claim with one chart:

View attachment 67574705

How about a chart that relates the decline in unions to income distribution?

 

[aociswundumho]

How about a chart that relates the decline in unions to income distribution?

Income isn't "distributed", it's earned.

 

[Cosmo]

I should also be happy with recognition of the rights of workers.

They can also create environmental harm and exploit those workers. The simple fact that they pay people does not mitigate any harm done to create profit.

From Google:

What's wrong with that?

To purchase such machinery is possible when you are a large corporation. Not so easy when you are a single small farmer.

How would you know? Even independent farmers use heavy equipment.

Automated farm equipment is often little more than that plus some software.

That is ridiculous. Drive out the competition and create a monopoly and then they can demand whatever price they want to.

Except that doesn't really happen, just as it didn't happen with Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, or Nvidia (some of the biggest companies in the world). And the latter three get government patent protection as well that wouldn't apply to farming.

Nor does ignoring that small independent business is fast disappearing as large companies take over. You ignore the fact that amazon and places like that often abuse and under pay their workers just so you can get a cheap and badly made product.

What really does not work is you giving a one sided limited viewpoint .

The stuff I get from Amazon is pretty good and I continue to use them. The quality can vary, sure, but that's to be expected with their huge selection. And what "abuse" are you talking about? If it was so bad, people wouldn't work them. You sure you're not just making shit up?

 

[Nickyjo]

Income isn't "distributed", it's earned.

Don’t be coy. You know what I mean.

 

[soylentgreen]

From Google:
View attachment 67574726
What's wrong with that?

The fact that you do not know even how a dictionary works. Dictionaries only give the most commonly used definition not the one and only way to define a word. The word explotation is defined by the context it is being used in. In this case the exploitation of workers. Which is defined as

Exploitation is a concept defined as, in its broadest sense, one agent taking unfair advantage of another agent.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation_of_labour#cite_note-:0-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> When applying this to labour (or labor), it denotes an unjust social relationship based on an asymmetry of power or unequal exchange of value between workers and their employers

Are you usually this dishonest in debate?

How would you know? Even independent farmers use heavy equipment.

Of course they do and as such they have high over heads and costs. Easily paid off when large corporations own the farms but a huge financial debt and cost to the small independent farmer.

Automated farm equipment is often little more than that plus some software.

Except that doesn't really happen, just as it didn't happen with Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, or Nvidia (some of the biggest companies in the world). And the latter three get government patent protection as well that wouldn't apply to farming.

Of course it does. Small towns all across america are in financial difficulty because large corporations like amazon have killed off the small mom and pop stores that held up the economy of those towns.

The stuff I get from Amazon is pretty good and I continue to use them. The quality can vary, sure, but that's to be expected with their huge selection. And what "abuse" are you talking about? If it was so bad, people wouldn't work them. You sure you're not just making shit up?

As if people have a real choice.
https://www.nelp.org/new-report-fin...il-to-provide-workers-middle-income-earnings/

Analysis finds company’s pay lags well behind other warehouse employers, insufficient for workers to approach even average earnings in the counties where they work

Warehouse workers in counties with Amazon fulfillment centers paid 26 percent less than the average for all workers in those counties

Try not to play the ignorant card to often it only makes you look foolish.

 

[Cosmo]

The fact that you do not know even how a dictionary works. Dictionaries only give the most commonly used definition not the one and only way to define a word. The word explotation is defined by the context it is being used in. In this case the exploitation of workers. Which is defined as

Are you usually this dishonest in debate?

Ready when you are. You never established any unfair advantage taken that's somehow unique to corporations.

Of course they do and as such they have high over heads and costs. Easily paid off when large corporations own the farms but a huge financial debt and cost to the small independent farmer.

Your statement makes no sense. What does owning farms have to do with paying off equipment debt? The bottom line is that getting heavy equipment makes sense even for non-corporate farmers, so AI-controlled tractors will likely be no different.

Of course it does. Small towns all across america are in financial difficulty because large corporations like amazon have killed off the small mom and pop stores that held up the economy of those towns.

Are you not following your own argument? You were talking about large corps charging whatever they want. Well obviously that hasn't really happened. Now you're moving the goalposts to complaining about obsoleted "mom and pop stores" that went away.

As if people have a real choice.
https://www.nelp.org/new-report-fin...il-to-provide-workers-middle-income-earnings/


Try not to play the ignorant card to often it only makes you look foolish.

It's warehouse entry level work. Of course it's less than average!

 

[LostInSeattle]

So self-interest drives innovation. Not some desire to make the world a better place.

Sometimes. Sometimes NOT. Look up the story of insulin and get back to us.

 

[soylentgreen]

Ready when you are. You never established any unfair advantage taken that's somehow unique to corporations.

The argument is not that it is unique to corporations just that corporations are in a position to exploit.

Your statement makes no sense. What does owning farms have to do with paying off equipment debt? The bottom line is that getting heavy equipment makes sense even for non-corporate farmers, so AI-controlled tractors will likely be no different.

If they can afford such high tech machinery. Corporations can and will use the advantage to drive out small independent farmers. In the same way corporatons have been the deth of mom and pop stores in small town america.

Are you not following your own argument? You were talking about large corps charging whatever they want. Well obviously that hasn't really happened. Now you're moving the goalposts to complaining about obsoleted "mom and pop stores" that went away.


It's warehouse entry level work. Of course it's less than average!

The only reason they are obsolete is because large corporations are killing them. And yes, when there are mooplolies ar cartels then there is no longer a balance betwen demand and supply because the large corporations can set whatever demand and supply they want.

 

[Cosmo]

The argument is not that it is unique to corporations just that corporations are in a position to exploit.

You still haven't established what's "unfair."

If they can afford such high tech machinery.

When they invented shovels, they afforded those. When they invented tractors, they afforded those. You have not established anything different now.

Corporations can and will use the advantage to drive out small independent farmers. In the same way corporatons have been the deth of mom and pop stores in small town america.

The only reason they are obsolete is because large corporations are killing them. And yes, when there are mooplolies ar cartels then there is no longer a balance betwen demand and supply because the large corporations can set whatever demand and supply they want.

Again, this hasn't happened with even the biggest corporations despite even government patent protection. Products are still cheap. As for "mom and pop stores?" I really don't care. I invest in big corps and enjoy the products they make, as well as the dividends they pay.

 

[soylentgreen]

You still haven't established what's "unfair."

Something about the meaning of being able to exploit not only the workers but customers of their products as well is still incomprehensible to you.

When they invented shovels, they afforded those. When they invented tractors, they afforded those. You have not established anything different now.

Yes I have. But again you choose to ignore it rather than refute it. Shovels only gave the independent farmer more independents. Tractors however created a dependence on others such as those that supplied the fule and mechanics to run the machinery. Noe that dependence is increased as the technology increases. Great if you are a corporation with and have the wealth to cover that. Not so good when you are a small farmer who can be wiped out by one bad season.

Again, this hasn't happened with even the biggest corporations despite even government patent protection. Products are still cheap.

Yes it has happened as can be seen by the death of small independent store owners and farmers. No, prices are not cheap. They are manipulated and controlled by corporations instead of by competition as the original understanding of the theory of capitalism suggests.

As for "mom and pop stores?" I really don't care. I invest in big corps and enjoy the products they make, as well as the dividends they pay.

Firstly no one cares whether you give a shit or not. Your personal caring does not create a refute to the argument that corporations are a bad form of a different theory of capitalism. one that creates the kind of oligarchy of the wealthy that is destroying america at this moment. Dividends and share holding is not capitalism. It is nothing more than gambling.

 

[Cosmo]

Something about the meaning of being able to exploit

You're going in circles. First exploit was defined as unfair, now you define unfair using the word exploit.

not only the workers but customers of their products as well is still incomprehensible to you.

Yes I have. But again you choose to ignore it rather than refute it. Shovels only gave the independent farmer more independents. Tractors however created a dependence on others such as those that supplied the fule and mechanics to run the machinery. Noe that dependence is increased as the technology increases. Great if you are a corporation with and have the wealth to cover that. Not so good when you are a small farmer who can be wiped out by one bad season.

Yes it has happened as can be seen by the death of small independent store owners and farmers. No, prices are not cheap.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

They are manipulated and controlled by corporations instead of by competition as the original understanding of the theory of capitalism suggests.

Firstly no one cares whether you give a shit or not. Your personal caring does not create a refute to the argument that corporations are a bad form of a different theory of capitalism. one that creates the kind of oligarchy of the wealthy that is destroying america at this moment. Dividends and share holding is not capitalism. It is nothing more than gambling.

If that's gambling, then so is keeping money in a savings account. Sounds like you know about as much about investing as you do about electronics prices over the years.

 

[soylentgreen]

You're going in circles. First exploit was defined as unfair, now you define unfair using the word exploit.

You have got to be ****ing kidding with this lame shit. here is another new word for you, synonymous

You have no clue what you're talking about.
View attachment 67574896
View attachment 67574899


If that's gambling, then so is keeping money in a savings account. Sounds like you know about as much about investing as you do about electronics prices over the years.

This is the problem I am talking about. Large corporations can and do undercut small independent business driving them out by offering cheap goods. And in doing so are killing the economy of small towns and concentrating the wealth in the hands of a few.

Only in the sense of interest earned. You are creating money from money rather than as the theory of capitalism works by creating profit form trade. And investement in shares in a company does not have the guarantee of interest earned as banks do. Sounds more like you have no idea what gambling is

 

[Cosmo]

You have got to be ****ing kidding with this lame shit. here is another new word for you, synonymous

So basically you're melting down over other people making good money through entrepreneurship, which is enough for you to call it exploitation.

This is the problem I am talking about. Large corporations can and do undercut small independent business driving them out by offering cheap goods. And in doing so are killing the economy of small towns and concentrating the wealth in the hands of a few.

You hate rich people. We get it.

Only in the sense of interest earned. You are creating money from money rather than as the theory of capitalism works by creating profit form trade.

The dividends are paid out of profit which is earned through trade.

Again, if you don't understand how economics work, don't bother.

And investement in shares in a company does not have the guarantee of interest earned as banks do. Sounds more like you have no idea what gambling is

And the banks can't guarantee inflation isn't going to beat their interest rate. So it's still an unknown and you can easily lose wealth.

 

[soylentgreen]

So basically you're melting down over other people making good money through entrepreneurship, which is enough for you to call it exploitation.

That's it you just ignore the fact that I have given links to show there is exploitation.

You hate rich people. We get it.

You can't even come up with a descent refute and have to grovel in an emotional fallacy . pathetic.

The dividends are paid out of profit which is earned through trade.

Does not change the fact that share trading itself is nothing more than gambling on whether a profit will be made.

Again, if you don't understand how economics work, don't bother.

And the banks can't guarantee inflation isn't going to beat their interest rate. So it's still an unknown and you can easily lose wealth.

of course they can. predicting whether inflation will occur is part of the job of economic advisors.
How do economists predict inflation?

Most of the work of predicting inflation revolves around the use of real economic activity to forecast inflation, to which we refer broadly as Phillips curve models, although other forecasting frameworks (such as incorporating monetary aggregates) are also considered.

How ****ing ridiculous to suggest that economists cannot predict inflation. Once again you do nothing more than give a wonderful example of ignorance.

 

[Cosmo]

That's it you just ignore the fact that I have given links to show there is exploitation.

What? That entry level warehouse employees make less than the average? Duh! Everyone knew that already.

You can't even come up with a descent refute and have to grovel in an emotional fallacy . pathetic.

Does not change the fact that share trading itself is nothing more than gambling on whether a profit will be made.

Just like you're "gambling" the US government won't cancel the US dollar in your bank account.

of course they can. predicting whether inflation will occur is part of the job of economic advisors.
How do economists predict inflation?

So you understand it's a prediction, but still don't get how there's risk? Oh boy...

Do you at least understand that a few years ago, the interest rates given by banks were lower than inflation?

How ****ing ridiculous to suggest that economists cannot predict inflation. Once again you do nothing more than give a wonderful example of ignorance.

 

[soylentgreen]

What? That entry level warehouse employees make less than the average? Duh! Everyone knew that already.

Care to prove that it is only entry level or are you just hoping the facts of how badly places like amazon treat their workers will not be brought up.
https://prismreports.org/2024/06/05/amazon-workers-struggle-injuries-low-pay/

A recent study from the University of Illinois Chicago’s Center for Urban Economic Development (CUED) surveyed 1,484 Amazon workers across 451 facilities in 42 states and found that 41% of the company’s employees report injuries at warehouses nationwide. The situation is similarly bleak for other workers. CUED data shows that 60% of those taking unpaid time off due to pain or exhaustion from working at Amazon reported one or more forms of food insecurity. Further, 56% of them were not able to pay all their bills without a remaining balance in the three months prior to being surveyed.

Absolutely pathetic that you try and pretend it is only those who are starting work that are treated so badly.

Just like you're "gambling" the US government won't cancel the US dollar in your bank account.

Why would they do that? Are you now left with nothing more than making shit up and hoping everyone else is as ignorant about economics as you are displaying.

So you understand it's a prediction, but still don't get how there's risk? Oh boy...

Do you at least understand that a few years ago, the interest rates given by banks were lower than inflation?

The prediction is based on well established facts about the economy and the effects of both business and government activity. Where as investing in stocks is merely the hope that you will get a return on an investment.
And again you demonstrate only your ignorance. banks will lower interest rates to stimulate borrowing. And also increase interest rates to slow down borrowing which increases inflation. ****ing economics 101. Start showing me even a basic understanding of economics because I am fast getting bored with having to explain how things work to you.

 

[Cosmo]

Care to prove that it is only entry level or are you just hoping the facts of how badly places like amazon treat their workers will not be brought up.
https://prismreports.org/2024/06/05/amazon-workers-struggle-injuries-low-pay/

The article discusses a guy loading containers. That's basically a forklift operator / warehouse associate. What do you think it is?

Absolutely pathetic that you try and pretend it is only those who are starting work that are treated so badly.

How is that Amazon's fault? Maybe they're pissing away money on non-essentials.

Why would they do that? Are you now left with nothing more than making shit up and hoping everyone else is as ignorant about economics as you are displaying.

Been done in other countries before:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/07/27/yeltsin-loosens-ruble-decree-as-frantic-citizens-scramble/ccbe0595-e296-4e10-8558-eab15c7a5b5f/

The decree took effect this morning, paralyzing routine functions in this lumbering economy of 150 million people. Suddenly, masses of Russians -- many on summer vacation -- were stranded with wads of illegal bills, no usable money and no way to get it. Making change was impossible; people traded subway tokens, matches or cigarettes in place of scarce small bills.

The weekend decree invalidated all pre-1993 ruble notes for purchases as of today, and gave citizens just two weeks to exchange a limited amount of the old currency for new notes.

Or they could just print more money to make your money worthless or almost worthless like Zimbabwe did.

It's typically done in times of economic troubles. We had a version of it happen in 2020 and 2021 when the government started handing out free money leading to 8% inflation. Guess what happened to people locked into 5-year CDs at 2%?

So no, it's not risk-free. There's your lesson for the day.

You're welcome.

The prediction is based on well established facts about the economy and the effects of both business and government activity. Where as investing in stocks is merely the hope that you will get a return on an investment.
And again you demonstrate only your ignorance. banks will lower interest rates to stimulate borrowing. And also increase interest rates to slow down borrowing which increases inflation.

Yeah, the secured bank interest rates went up to 5%, not 9% as was inflation. And of course you have to subtract the early withdrawal penalty if you wanted to liquidate your 2% CD to put the money into a 5% CD.

****ing economics 101. Start showing me even a basic understanding of economics because I am fast getting bored with having to explain how things work to you.

 

[soylentgreen]

The article discusses a guy loading containers. That's basically a forklift operator / warehouse associate. What do you think it is?

Exactly what it is. A discussion pointing out the harm done to workers by poor working conditions. Do not be so dishonest and pretend it is not.

How is that Amazon's fault? Maybe they're pissing away money on non-essentials.

Businerss has an obligation to treat its workers well and not put them in danger with poor working conditions. Not that you seem to care as long as you can profit from it.

Been done in other countries before:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/07/27/yeltsin-loosens-ruble-decree-as-frantic-citizens-scramble/ccbe0595-e296-4e10-8558-eab15c7a5b5f/

Or they could just print more money to make your money worthless or almost worthless like Zimbabwe did.
View attachment 67575074
It's typically done in times of economic troubles. We had a version of it happen in 2020 and 2021 when the government started handing out free money leading to 8% inflation. Guess what happened to people locked into 5-year CDs at 2%?

How ridiculous that you can only point to countries like russia where the government is only interested in the welfare of the elite rulers. Crippling their currency only effects the workers who they do not care about. Same with zimbabwe having a ruler who cares only about his own wealth and would happily kill any who stand in opposition. They are not capitalist countries they are dictatorships who manipulate wealth only for the good of the elite.

So no, it's not risk-free. There's your lesson for the day.

Never said that trade is not risk free. Did say that risking money on share holding is nothing more than gambling. Big difference between trade and gambling.

You're welcome.
Yeah, the secured bank interest rates went up to 5%, not 9% as was inflation. And of course you have to subtract the early withdrawal penalty if you wanted to liquidate your 2% CD to put the money into a 5% CD.

For what having to read some garbage from a person whose understanding of economics stops at just being able to spell the word. And thinks dictatorships are capitalists.

 

[Cosmo]

Exactly what it is. A discussion pointing out the harm done to workers by poor working conditions. Do not be so dishonest and pretend it is not.

Businerss has an obligation to treat its workers well and not put them in danger with poor working conditions. Not that you seem to care as long as you can profit from it.

The employee literally says he's gotten hurt at other jobs.

Anywhere else I’ve worked and gotten hurt

How ridiculous that you can only point to countries like russia where the government is only interested in the welfare of the elite rulers. Crippling their currency only effects the workers who they do not care about. Same with zimbabwe having a ruler who cares only about his own wealth and would happily kill any who stand in opposition. They are not capitalist countries they are dictatorships who manipulate wealth only for the good of the elite.

We literally had the government here in the US hand out free money resulting in the currency getting devalued. It happened in the last five years, and here you are still clueless about it. The bottom line is there's risk in any sort of thing you keep your wealth in. Calling all investing using the blanket word "gambling" proves you have no clue what you're talking about.

Never said that trade is not risk free. Did say that risking money on share holding is nothing more than gambling. Big difference between trade and gambling.

For what having to read some garbage from a person whose understanding of economics stops at just being able to spell the word. And thinks dictatorships are capitalists.

Are you done proving you have no idea how investing works?

 

[soylentgreen]

The employee literally says he's gotten hurt at other jobs.

Care to point out where it says that or are you just making shit up and hoping to be believed. I am really getting tired of reading your bullshit lies.

We literally had the government here in the US hand out free money resulting in the currency getting devalued. It happened in the last five years, and here you are still clueless about it. The bottom line is there's risk in any sort of thing you keep your wealth in. Calling all investing using the blanket word "gambling" proves you have no clue what you're talking about.

Again a difference between government loans and grants and gambling on the stock exchange,.

Are you done proving you have no idea how investing works?

Investing in a business is gambling that a business will make a profit. That you do not know that is just another exmaple of your lack of knowledge.

 

[Cosmo]

Care to point out where it says that or are you just making shit up and hoping to be believed. I am really getting tired of reading your bullshit lies.

Literally in the article you linked!

You sure it's my "bullshit lies" you're tired of reading? Maybe you just don't read beyond the article title because it's way too much work, or am I giving you too much credit?

Again a difference between government loans and grants and gambling on the stock exchange,.

Investing in a business is gambling that a business will make a profit. That you do not know that is just another exmaple of your lack of knowledge.

 

[soylentgreen]

Literally in the article you linked!
View attachment 67575094
You sure it's my "bullshit lies" you're tired of reading? Maybe you just don't read beyond the article title because it's way too much work, or am I giving you too much credit?

I am sick and tired of dealing with you. you lie, you quote mine the article you're not worth wasting my time on.
The actual statement which you deliberetly and dishonestly misquote reads.

“Anywhere else I’ve worked and gotten hurt, they immediately made sure I got some medical care and that I never had to worry about pay,” Rodriguez said.

Go away and stop bothering me as I do not waste time with people who lie.

 

[Cosmo]

I am sick and tired of dealing with you. you lie, you quote mine the article you're not worth wasting my time on.
The actual statement which you deliberetly and dishonestly misquote reads.


Go away and stop bothering me as I do not waste time with people who lie.

ROFL! So basically I exposed you as being unable to overcome the immense challenge of reading a simple 1,000-word article you yourself linked (and misrepresented, having not read it), so now you're rage-quitting!

 

[soylentgreen]

ROFL! So basically I exposed you as being unable to overcome the immense challenge of reading a simple 1,000-word article you yourself linked (and misrepresented, having not read it), so now you're rage-quitting!

All you have done is demonstrate that at best you have the comprehension skill of a 5 year old and at worst that you will try the most deceitful of fallacies by quote mining. The fact that he has been hurt at other jobs does not mean that he has not also been harmed at amazon. Which the article quite clearly states he has. Your arguments are weak and based on a lie. But that is all you have, weak arguments.