"Fag"

[RightinNYC]

Dear Bodi:2razz: ,
Thanks for calling me trash:2wave: lol
Nothing about my life bothers me, and I guess our differences are what must bother you. My parents have quite a bit of money, so I'm not as trashy as you think I am. Most people would assume that I'm a raging alcoholic by now, but I think if I've gotten anything out of my life it’s been self control with the bottle. I do quite well in school, and house parties with the stuff I listed are quite common among high school students.....
I did use a condom with that girl....and I knew her quite well.
No STD's.

I think its people like you that need to lighten up a bit more.
If you look back and really examine the context of my comments to Jallman you would see that they're not as offensive as you think they are.
In fact, I guess you would call me half gay, but I don't think that’s correct. I tend to have this weird urge to be with guys on random occasions....so when I call Jallman out its because I understand a lot more than he thinks I do. I'm not some homophobic hypocritical liberal, but more of an "all around" experienced "2 sided" type of person.....
Get my drift???:2wave:

Sorry my lifestyle offends you....but I see it more as a cultural ignorance that I'm hoping you can break up....

Are you from Jersey?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Are you from Jersey?

Sounds more like the Bronx. :2razz:

 

[RightinNYC]

Sounds more like the Bronx. :2razz:

I dunno....he's an underage kid who's been drinking since he was 11, tried crack at age 13, ****ed a girl on the hood of a car at 16, invites his friends over to **** in his living room, has parents who are loaded and provide him with everything he wants, and admits to having homosexual urges....

Sounds like stereotypical bergen county to me.

or at least Long Island:lol:

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I dunno....he's an underage kid who's been drinking since he was 11, tried crack at age 13, ****ed a girl on the hood of a car at 16, invites his friends over to **** in his living room, has parents who are loaded and provide him with everything he wants, and admits to having homosexual urges....

Sounds like stereotypical bergen county to me.

or at least Long Island:lol:

Nah...it was the crack thing that pegged him for the Bronx. :tongue4:

 

[Kelzie]

You know, when I hear someone justifying their behavior because it's common, I always think of this cool poster I had in my room when I was in high school. It was a picture of two students in a classroom at their desks taking a test, with one student looking at the other's paper. The caption underneath was this: If 100 million people cheat, IT'S STILL CHEATING.

Words I always try to remember when personal morals vs. popular expectations come into play.

Oh my gawd. There was this poster at a high school where I did some random democratic act...don't remember, but the poster said:

National Institute of Sarcasm

Like we need you

Now, I normally thinking stealing is very morally wrong, but it took all my willpower not to jack it from the wall.

Umm...yours was probably a better message for the kids.

 

[Flea]

Originally Posted By Obama
LOLOL I was boozing back in 6th grade aright so don’t gimme yer **** on experiencing parties...the amount of high school parties I've been to probably doubles the amount of anything you've ever gone to buddy.

I doubt it, simply based off of age alone. But even if you did, is that something to really be proud of? Quantity does nothing to help understanding if the person is not asking the right questions.

Are we gonna talk about who's dad is the toughest next? :lol:

Originally Posted By Obama
Having 3 older brothers with parents who'd be gone for weekends at a time exposed me to enough stuff before I was even in high school. I'm pretty sure it was 8th grade when I tried crack...

Crack in 8th grade? Good for you!

Originally Posted By Obama
Now speaking of high school stories, the weirdest **** I've ever had was on top of a car roof with this bitch 3 years older than me.

Who doesn't admire a guy that calls girls "Bitches"?

Is your mom just some bitch that ****ed your dad on the hood of a car back in the day as well?

Originally Posted By Obama
And when people blow each other in my bathroom and **** on my stairs its good because I invited the people over specifically for those types of activities and to have a good time.

No Scrabble tonight kids, We Be Sucking Dick's at Obama's Instead!! Yeah!

Originally Posted By Obama
Nobody ever invited gay men into the local parks bathroom except themselves. I was not implying all gay men engage in this behavior, but as Jallman even said it was a common practice in the "dark era" (we'll call it that) of homosexuality.

So it is about ownership? Who invited who? :lol: Gay men invited themselves into a public bathroom? Dude, your telling me that you don't know heterosexuals that step behind a barrier at a public place or into the bushes next to the entrance of a building and have intercourse just because it is dangerous and exciting to do so in public? Of course this happens. I know people that have done this. I have done this with a crazy GF that I had. Don't be thinking that homos are singular in this behavior, they just got a bad rap from heteros because it was before the whole PC era began. Before you were born. So of course you are talking out of your *** about this.

Like I said, and you confirmed without actually admitting that I was right (Really lame way to go about it by the way) is that heterosexuals engage in lude acts and are promiscuous in public, so the whole "Dark Age" thing is bunk. It started there and quickly entered into mainstream population because heterosexuals engage in the same type of behavior.

 

[jallman]

No what’s funny is that I’m stating things that are generally attributed to gay men...such as I mentioned before the bath houses and the studies that commonly show a huge percentage of gay men had weak father figures.
What’s funny is that you won’t answer the question because I'm probably right.
There was nothing offensive or intolerant in my post...you simply try and :spin: :spin: :spin: it that way.
I said "perhaps" because maybe you had a strong father figure???

Actually, my father and I had quite the easy friendship until he died this past year. And just because something is "generally attributed" to a group, it doesn't make it so. Perhaps you would like to speak to the fact that you enjoy slinging stereotypes around despite that not being the "liberal" mindset.

lol nope it wasn't the crack...
You sure are tolerant to drug users aren't you?

No, I am not tolerant to drug users. Nor am I expected to be...:doh

 

[rathi]

You know, when I hear someone justifying their behavior because it's common, I always think of this cool poster I had in my room when I was in high school. It was a picture of two students in a classroom at their desks taking a test, with one student looking at the other's paper. The caption underneath was this: If 100 million people cheat, IT'S STILL CHEATING.

Words I always try to remember when personal morals vs. popular expectations come into play.

Its true that popular does not equal right. However, while cheating is obviously a problem, what exactly is wrong with teen drinking or sex?

House parties being common among high school students were they are using drugs and having sex does in the manner you have described does not make it sound any less trashy. It is not a justification. "Gee, all the kids are doing it..."

Its not trashy. Its normal behavior. Or are you trashy if you have sex, drink or go to parties?


Frankly, excepting for disrespect towards women and crack, Obama's lifestyle is fairly normal and harmless for teens. However, his attacks on the gay lifestyle are certainly way off base.

Again, it doesn't offend me. It saddens me. You are a kid and you kids are thinking and acting like you are older and you guys are doing irresponsible things...it is just a bummer.

How about you don't stereotype an entire age group? Sure kids do plenty of irresponsible acts. However, thats because parents are not teaching them how to be responsible. Like it or not, its a statistical fact that most teens will end up drinking, smoking or having sex. Yet society and parents and the law don't recognize that. Thus, most teens have to commit such potentially harmful acts without any guidance. Its hard to do the right thing if nobody teaches you.

In addition, its a grave insult to teens who actually are responsible. Many many teens study hard during the week, party during the weekend and get into top tier colleges.

 

[Stace]

Its true that popular does not equal right. However, while cheating is obviously a problem, what exactly is wrong with teen drinking or sex?

If you can't see the problems there, well.....there's something wrong with that.

How about breaking the law for starters?

Its not trashy. Its normal behavior. Or are you trashy if you have sex, drink or go to parties?

The parties that Obama described are NOT normal behavior. And normal to you doesn't mean it can't be trashy in someone else's eyes. Look at Paris Hilton. What she does is normal for her, but is incredibly trashy to most folks.

Frankly, excepting for disrespect towards women and crack, Obama's lifestyle is fairly normal and harmless for teens. However, his attacks on the gay lifestyle are certainly way off base.

Normal? Harmless? Wrong on both counts. I'm not all that far removed from high school. Sure, there was the group of kids that were dangerously promiscuous, that bragged about getting drunk and smoking up, etc....but they were far from the norm. "Normal" implies that the majority is engaged in this behavior, which is not the case.

How about you don't stereotype an entire age group? Sure kids do plenty of irresponsible acts. However, thats because parents are not teaching them how to be responsible. Like it or not, its a statistical fact that most teens will end up drinking, smoking or having sex. Yet society and parents and the law don't recognize that. Thus, most teens have to commit such potentially harmful acts without any guidance. Its hard to do the right thing if nobody teaches you.

Are you not stereotyping people of parenting age here? Parents can only do so much.

It's very easy to do the right thing if nobody teaches you. It's called self control. The guidance is there - DON'T DO IT. How hard is that to understand? Drugs are against the law. Drinking alcoholic beverages under the age of 21 is against the law. Legal age for consensual sex varies from state to state....and all three of those also come with moral implications.

But hey, why bother with those stupid laws anyway? :roll:

In addition, its a grave insult to teens who actually are responsible. Many many teens study hard during the week, party during the weekend and get into top tier colleges.

No one's saying they don't. But the kind of parties Obama is describing? Those aren't being held, or attended, by RESPONSIBLE teens.

 

[rathi]

If you can't see the problems there, well.....there's something wrong with that.

How about breaking the law for starters?

I should rephrase my questions. From a practical or moral perspective what is wrong with the aforementioned activities? And teen sex is a legal gray area that depends heavily on location.

The parties that Obama described are NOT normal behavior.

For teenagers, yes they are. Do you want mountains of statistics or my personal experiences in a wide variety of teen cultures? If I am correct, you are a parent with young children, so I doubt your experience matches mine.

And normal to you doesn't mean it can't be trashy in someone else's eyes. Look at Paris Hilton. What she does is normal for her, but is incredibly trashy to most folks.

Most people are celebrities so don't compare who behavior to the average persons.

Normal? Harmless? Wrong on both counts. I'm not all that far removed from high school. Sure, there was the group of kids that were dangerously promiscuous, that bragged about getting drunk and smoking up, etc....but they were far from the norm. "Normal" implies that the majority is engaged in this behavior, which is not the case.

Assuming that Obama's claim that he used protection responsibly is true, there was nothing dangerous about his promiscuity. And most teens do drink or smoke during highschool.

The average age when youth first try alcohol is 11 years for boys and 13 years for girls. The average age at which Americans begin drinking regularly is 15.9 years old.

Alcohol and Teen Drinking

And thats from a site that is against teen drinking.

Are you not stereotyping people of parenting age here? Parents can only do so much.

I'm not stereotyping parents. Most parents still do not accept that their kids most likely will drink and have sex.

It's very easy to do the right thing if nobody teaches you. It's called self control. The guidance is there - DON'T DO IT.

Yeah, thats great guidance right there. "Drinking alcohol is wrong and you shouldn't do it" said the suburbanite while enjoying his healthy glass of red wine. No to mention that such guidance is a complete and utter failure given current teen drinking rates. Considering

Drugs are against the law. Drinking alcoholic beverages under the age of 21 is against the law. Legal age for consensual sex varies from state to state....and all three of those also come with moral implications

I agree that drugs are against the law. However, you give no arguments on why such laws are useful. And what moral implications are you talking about? Safe sex and moderate drinking are not dangerous.

No one's saying they don't. But the kind of parties Obama is describing? Those aren't being held, or attended, by RESPONSIBLE teens.

Yes they are! I recently attended such a party held by a teen in light of her acceptance to Stanford.

 

[Stace]

I should rephrase my questions. From a practical or moral perspective what is wrong with the aforementioned activities? And teen sex is a legal gray area that depends heavily on location.

What's wrong with teen drinking, aside from being against the law? Hmmm...alcohol poisoning, drunk driving...need I continue?

And teen sex? How about STDs and teen pregnancy?

Surely you can see the practical and more problems there.

For teenagers, yes they are. Do you want mountains of statistics or my personal experiences in a wide variety of teen cultures? If I am correct, you are a parent with young children, so I doubt your experience matches mine.

I'm 23. The high school I went to was pretty notorious for our amount of teen drinking, sex, and drugs. There was an entire book written about my school. So yeah, I'm sure I could match your experiences and then some.

Most people are celebrities so don't compare who behavior to the average persons.

I'm assuming that you meant to say that most people AREN'T celerities. But see, her celebrity status makes her the perfect example, because what she does is a hell of a lot more visible than what Joe Smith in Wichita, Kansas is doing. And according to you, the things Paris Hilton is into are quite "normal"...only, they're not.

Assuming that Obama's claim that he used protection responsibly is true, there was nothing dangerous about his promiscuity. And most teens do drink or smoke during highschool.

Condoms do break, ya know. Birth control fails.

And no, MOST teens do NOT drink or smoke. Many, sure. But I would hesitate to say most.

Hey, I admit it, I drank in high school. Doesn't make what I did right or moral. And for the record, I didn't have my first drink till I was at least 16.

I'm not stereotyping parents. Most parents still do not accept that their kids most likely will drink and have sex.

So, tell me....Bodi points out that many teens do irresponsible things. You accuse him of stereotyping. And yet, you generalizing about most parents....hmmm....pot, meet kettle.

If "most" parents don't accept those things, it's more likely than not that they feel they've raised their children to be better people than that. Sure, there's a populace of parents out there that just don't give a damn, but I'd hardly say that those parents are in the majority.

Yeah, thats great guidance right there. "Drinking alcohol is wrong and you shouldn't do it" said the suburbanite while enjoying his healthy glass of red wine. No to mention that such guidance is a complete and utter failure given current teen drinking rates. Considering

Well then, oh wise one, what do you suggest?

I agree that drugs are against the law. However, you give no arguments on why such laws are useful. And what moral implications are you talking about? Safe sex and moderate drinking are not dangerous.

Why should I have to give an argument on why anti drug laws are useful? Hey, you want to go fry your brain, be my guest. You want to spend 10 years in jail for using coke, again, be my guest. I don't make the laws....but I do, for the most part, follow them.

And in case you weren't aware, breaking laws is a pretty big moral no-no. Most religions frown upon premarital sex, too.

And yes, even "safe" sex and "moderate" drinking can be dangerous. It's naive to think otherwise.

Yes they are! I recently attended such a party held by a teen in light of her acceptance to Stanford.

Just because she got accepted to Stanford, that doesn't make her responsible.

But you're telling me that there were teenagers having sex on her stairs? Doing keg stands in the backyard, perhaps? That's NOT responsible behavior.

 

[rathi]

Hmmm...alcohol poisoning, drunk driving...need I continue?

Notice how such statistics are much lower in countries where teenagers can legally drink? Not to mention that adults do all those things. Furthermore, tellings kids not to drink instead of educating them on how to drink safely means that said incidences have a higher chance of happening. Teenagers don't want to drive drunk or get alcohol poisoning. If you teach them how to avoid it, they will. They do want to drink however, and nothing you do can prevent that. Many teens drink responsibly proving that their is nothing inherently wrong with the drinking itself.

And teen sex? How about STDs and teen pregnancy?

Again, you need to teach teens how to have safe sex to prevent that. Teens are going to have sex, all you can try to do is teach them to be safe.

And according to you, the things Paris Hilton is into are quite "normal"...only, they're not.

Paris Hilton is over 21 and goes to incredibly opulent rich parties with media coverage. She doesn't invite a few friends over when her parents are out of town. Don't compare what teens do to her lifestyle, its not accurate.

Condoms do break, ya know. Birth control fails.

True, but they are infinitely better than trying to stop the sex in the first place. Not to mention that adults face the problems.

And no, MOST teens do NOT drink or smoke. Many, sure. But I would hesitate to say most.

Simply incorrect. No matter how you slice it, you are wrong. I gave you one link, and there are many many many more that support it. Show me something that supports your statement.

Hey, I admit it, I drank in high school. Doesn't make what I did right or moral. And for the record, I didn't have my first drink till I was at least 16.

So despite overwhelming statistical evidence AND personal experience you still don't think drinking is okay?

Well then, oh wise one, what do you suggest?

Decriminalize alcohol for minors. Schools should give full and comprehensive medical information about alcohol and its effects and how to treat alcohol poisoning. Parents should instruct their kids on how to responsibly drink. They should also supervise their kids first times drinking to ensure safety.

Why should I have to give an argument on why anti drug laws are useful? Hey, you want to go fry your brain, be my guest. You want to spend 10 years in jail for using coke, again, be my guest. I don't make the laws....but I do, for the most part, follow them.

Equating the health effects of alcohol with coke is horribly inaccurate and part of what causes drug problems in the first place. Let me explain a scenario.: Teen gets lousy drug education that explains how evil coke and alcohol are. Teens drinks a few beer and realizes that alcohol isn't that bad. Teen realizing that he was lied to about booze, assumes that he was also lied to about cocaine. He then starting doing coke assuming that it will be just as bad as alcohol is.

And in case you weren't aware, breaking laws is a pretty big moral no-no.

Ask Gandhi about that. Laws are a practical way to create order in society. They do not carry moral weight. Otherwise you get into circular logic.

Most religions frown upon premarital sex, too.

So? Most religions frown on rational skepticism and scientific reasoning too.

And yes, even "safe" sex and "moderate" drinking can be dangerous. It's naive to think otherwise.

Please elaborate with specific examples.

Just because she got accepted to Stanford, that doesn't make her responsible.

You think you can get into the top educational environment without being responsible? Stanford doesn't let you go examination only.

But you're telling me that there were teenagers having sex on her stairs? Doing keg stands in the backyard, perhaps? That's NOT responsible behavior.

The sex was on futons, and I was mixing drinks, so no kegs. And whats so irresponsible about it? I took everyones keys and monitored everyones alcohol intake. Nobody so much as puked. Nobody was injured arrested ect. Who was hurt?

 

[Flea]

First of all, Obama is 16. We are talking about younger teenagers, not 18 and 19 year olds that are in college. Get that straight first. Know why that is no big deal? it is because they are old enough to get jobs. They are developed cognitively. They are more emotionally secure. They are physically almost completely developed. See the difference? High school kids are KIDS! 13, 14, 15, 16 years old? Even 17 is young. 18 too, but if they are in college, that stands for a lot.

Originally Posted by rathi
what exactly is wrong with teen drinking or sex?

Are you joking? You are joking, right? Please tell me that you are joking! It is trashy for kids to be acting irresponsible and like little party whores.

That is how kids ask questions. "why not?" No, you tell me why it is OK.

Work backwards. Explain why it is OK for underage kids to have sex and drink. Imagine the consequences and find solutions to back up why they should be able to have sex and drink. That is how it works.

Originally Posted by rathi
Its not trashy. Its normal behavior. Or are you trashy if you have sex, drink or go to parties?

It is becoming normal behavior.

Study: Half of All Teens Have Had Oral Sex

And that is the problem. I was in high school. We all were. Times change and that disturbs us. Just because it is normal, does not mean that it is in the best interest of those involved. Most kids were their pants down to their ankles too. They show their underwear. That is cool with you too, huh? It is disgusting and not hygienic.

Originally Posted by rathi
Frankly, excepting for disrespect towards women and crack, Obama's lifestyle is fairly normal and harmless for teens.

Normal, it is getting to be so. Harmless? That is Incorrect. IT is ruining the social fabric of society. It is a bigger picture than people realize. It is breeding disrespect at an alarming rate.

Originally Posted by rathi
How about you don't stereotype an entire age group?

I think that he said, “you” meaning Obama, and “you kids” meaning his friends that act like him. How about you stop jumping to conclusions.

Originally Posted by rathi
Assuming that Obama's claim that he used protection responsibly is true, there was nothing dangerous about his promiscuity. And most teens do drink or smoke during highschool.

So what? Do you have any clue as to the effects of Ecstasy?

Originally Posted by rathi
And thats from a site that is against teen drinking.

Can you provide information from a site that is for teen drinking?

Originally Posted by rathi
I'm not stereotyping parents. Most parents still do not accept that their kids most likely will drink and have sex.

They don’t accept it because it was and is considered so trashy that most parents don’t actually believe that their kids would act that way. It has always been socially unacceptable to act like sluts, but now kids say “its cool, we are al doing it, and what is wrong anyway”.

Originally Posted by rathi
I agree that drugs are against the law. However, you give no arguments on why such laws are useful. And what moral implications are you talking about? Safe sex and moderate drinking are not dangerous.

Why are drug laws useful? Is that really you question. Man, you are off the charts. So, you tell me, what is the beneficial aspect of Crack that we should accept?

Originally Posted by rathi
Yes they are! I recently attended such a party held by a teen in light of her acceptance to Stanford.

She is an irresponsible whore. Stanford means nothing. It means she had some good grades or bought her way in. If her character is that of a whore, then she is a whore.

EDIT:

Not examination only, but it is pretty easy to hide your sexual activities during an interview. That is not much. Some of the most immoral people on the planet are our government officials. I worked at Bohemian Grove, I would know. So you should just stop with that ridiculous naive attitude.

 

[jallman]

First of all, Obama is 16.

Well that explains it all right there. I guess I should cut him a bit more slack from now on.

 

[RightinNYC]

I should rephrase my questions. From a practical or moral perspective what is wrong with the aforementioned activities? And teen sex is a legal gray area that depends heavily on location.

For teenagers, yes they are. Do you want mountains of statistics or my personal experiences in a wide variety of teen cultures? If I am correct, you are a parent with young children, so I doubt your experience matches mine.

Most people are celebrities so don't compare who behavior to the average persons.

Assuming that Obama's claim that he used protection responsibly is true, there was nothing dangerous about his promiscuity. And most teens do drink or smoke during highschool.

Alcohol and Teen Drinking

And thats from a site that is against teen drinking.

I'm not stereotyping parents. Most parents still do not accept that their kids most likely will drink and have sex.

Yeah, thats great guidance right there. "Drinking alcohol is wrong and you shouldn't do it" said the suburbanite while enjoying his healthy glass of red wine. No to mention that such guidance is a complete and utter failure given current teen drinking rates. Considering

I agree that drugs are against the law. However, you give no arguments on why such laws are useful. And what moral implications are you talking about? Safe sex and moderate drinking are not dangerous.

Yes they are! I recently attended such a party held by a teen in light of her acceptance to Stanford.

Yes, the average kid first drinks alcohol at 11. I know I did, probably even earlier. We were on the tour of the local brewery and my dad gave me a sip of his beer. I thought it was gross, and didn't really drink again until I was at least 16, and never frequently until I went off to college. In addition, I started having sex at a pretty young age, though it was legal in NY.

You're right that many, many teens do break laws and act stupidly. I know I did. But you know what? There's a difference between just doing these things, and being someone who does these things excessively trying to be cool and sees absolutely nothing wrong with that.

It's not the fact that he said he drank in 6th grade that made me laugh/shake my head. It's the fact that he said:

LOLOL I was boozing back in 6th grade aright so don’t gimme yer **** on experiencing parties...the amount of high school parties I've been to probably doubles the amount of anything you've ever gone to buddy.

That made me embarrassed for him.

It wasn't the fact that he tried drugs once that is a problem, it's the fact that he looks at it like:

I'm pretty sure it was 8th grade when I tried crack...

And it's not the fact that he's having underage sex that bothers people, it's the fact that he says:

Now speaking of high school stories, the weirdest **** I've ever had was on top of a car roof with this bitch 3 years older than me.

And when people blow each other in my bathroom and **** on my stairs its good because I invited the people over specifically for those types of activities and to have a good time.

These are the kinds of things that take relatively normal activities and make them look absolutely stupid.

Now, considering that he's 16, I'm assuming that a lot of the stuff he's posting is somewhat exxagerated/hyped up in order to sound more mature than he is (not realizing that it has the reverse effect). But regardless, I'm concerned for the kid.

Because fact of the matter is, while you CAN be the kind of person to do this stuff and do well in life, it's much more likely you'll end up at the local community college if at all.

And even if he makes it into a good school, he still has a severe risk of being the douchebag in the popped collar who only rails ugly chicks with glitter on their boobs and lower back tattoos.

 

[rathi]

Are you joking? You are joking, right? Please tell me that you are joking! It is trashy for kids to be acting irresponsible and like little party whores.[/QUOTE

...Thats your opinion not an argument.

Normal, it is getting to be so. Harmless? That is Incorrect. IT is ruining the social fabric of society. It is a bigger picture than people realize. It is breeding disrespect at an alarming rate.

More opinions.

So what? Do you have any clue as to the effects of Ecstasy?

Indeed. That is why I do not use it. However, I learned the information on my own.

[QUOTE
They don’t accept it because it was and is considered so trashy that most parents don’t actually believe that their kids would act that way. It has always been socially unacceptable to act like sluts, but now kids say “its cool, we are al doing it, and what is wrong anyway”.

The parents can disaprove all they like, but all it does it mean that their kids will perform such activities in secret.

These are the kinds of things that take relatively normal activities and make them look absolutely stupid.

I agree fully. Obama is a great example of the problems that our system creates. I agree that we have problems today that involve alcohol and sex. However, the solution is not to try and ban them.

Can you provide information from a site that is for teen drinking?

ARE YOU ADULT ENOUGH TO DEBATE THE DRINKING AGE?

Why are drug laws useful? Is that really you question. Man, you are off the charts. So, you tell me, what is the beneficial aspect of Crack that we should accept?

I have no moral issue against crack. However, it causes enough societal harm that I don't think its worth it to make it legal.

She is an irresponsible whore. Stanford means nothing. It means she had some good grades or bought her way in. If her character is that of a whore, then she is a whore.

Your pathetic resort to personal attacks is no argument. Her academic career is exemplary. Given her mental faculties and work ethic, her chances of being a productive member of society are infinitely higher than some moron who abstains for sex or drugs.

 

[imprtnrd]

People are just plain ignorant!

 

[Flea]

Opinions? That is just about all you have spouted. Look, Stace has already proven that you are a hypocrite. Do you need another example? Not that you would be able to comprehend.

You seem to think that most kids go out and research effects of activities that they engage in ever, let alone prior to engaging in them. What world do you live in that you think that people are responsible?

Pathetic is defending harmful activities. If somebody is a whore then no amount of pedigree will change that. Never heard of Bohemian Grove, eh? Well, I have more experience with the Upper Echelon than you could fathom. Trashy behavior is trashy behavior, sorry that is hard for you to accept.

:lol: I guess that I understand that most of what we say is opinion, most of us do, so when you use that as a defense it initially just boggles my mind, but then I laugh at you. Using such tactics as "I'm rubber and your glue". Of course what we say is opinion, do you think that you are the only one aware of that? Is that "Your" Enlightened understanding?

You want to get into personal attacks kiddo, we can do that. Not that you seem to be able to grasp anything with you cocky little attitude, and that will be fine. Me talking about some hooker that you think a lot of does not change anything. I will run the mill on you and then discard you, or you can quit with the idiocy and just have a discussion.

So, what the hell is your argument here? We all seem to agree on most of the issues, yet you seem to keep making subtle comments alluding to the possibility that you condone what we consider destructive behavior.

By JohnnyUtah
Work backwards. Explain why it is OK for underage kids to have sex and drink. Imagine the consequences and find solutions to back up why they should be able to have sex and drink. That is how it works

This is the logic that you are avoiding. Untill you can do this, I wont bother with you again.

 

[rathi]

Opinions? That is just about all you have spouted.

Incorrect. I said that most American teens drink, than posted a link that supported my statement. That is not an opinion.

Look, Stace has already proven that you are a hypocrite.

Please cite said example then.

Pathetic is defending harmful activities. If somebody is a whore then no amount of pedigree will change that. Never heard of Bohemian Grove, eh? Well, I have more experience with the Upper Echelon than you could fathom. Trashy behavior is trashy behavior, sorry that is hard for you to accept.

Strawman argument. I never argued that rich people cannot be trashy. I also has experience with them as well.

I guess that I understand that most of what we say is opinion, most of us do, so when you use that as a defense it initially just boggles my mind, but then I laugh at you. Using such tactics as "I'm rubber and your glue". Of course what we say is opinion, do you think that you are the only one aware of that? Is that "Your" Enlightened understanding?

Opinion is indeed a part of argument.

You want to get into personal attacks kiddo, we can do that. Not that you seem to be able to grasp anything with you cocky little attitude, and that will be fine. Me talking about some hooker that you think a lot of does not change anything. I will run the mill on you and then discard you, or you can quit with the idiocy and just have a discussion.

I have not indulged in a single personal attack on this forum ever. Please cite said example of an attack. I did call your argument pathetic, not you. I find myself agreeing with many of your comments, and normally respect your arguments. However, Given that you called my friend a whore without any supporting evidence, its a fairly warranted statement.

So, what the hell is your argument here? We all seem to agree on most of the issues, yet you seem to keep making subtle comments alluding to the possibility that you condone what we consider destructive behavior.

My argument is as follows.

Alcohol use and sex is rampant among teens. Sex and alcohol use can cause serious health issues. Parents, Schools and the legal system have tried and failed to solve this problem my morally and legally condemning both. Countries that lack such prohibitions, for example Germany, have lower rate of sexual diseases, pregnancy, and alcohol related health issues among there youth. However, copying Germany's system doesn't take into amount several factors, such as the huge numbers of teen drivers present in the US but not Germany. To reduce the amount of death and injury among teens and new system needed. First, to accept the inevitability of teens engaging in said activities and recognize that the influence is determining circumstances in they occur. Your morals are your own, but hopefully protecting our youth is more important than some personal feelings against drinking. Second, we need to give a full education in the medical effects of both to teens. Finally, parents need to give supervision in addition to education. Parental involvement is key. It is much easier for kids to get help for things like alcohol ism when they don't fear being ostracized for drinking. In addition, parents would be able to supervise parties better and provide help if something goes wrong. Furthermore, decriminalizing alcohol would cut down on binge drinking. American teens have to drink in secret. This means that they tend to drink only on Fridays or Saturdays, and also increases the amount of alcohol consumed in a short period of time.

Work backwards. Explain why it is OK for underage kids to have sex and drink. Imagine the consequences and find solutions to back up why they should be able to have sex and drink. That is how it works

The problem is that your solution, which is trying to ban them, increases the consequences. If banning them for teens actually worked, I might have a different opinion.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Its true that popular does not equal right. However, while cheating is obviously a problem, what exactly is wrong with teen drinking or sex?

Teens tend to be more impulsive then adults. Recent research has shown that the parts of the brain that control impulsivity continue to develope throught the early 20's. Because of this the act of drinking or having sex can be impulsive behaviors or can lead to further impulsive behaviors. These are the problems with teen drinking and sex.

Its not trashy. Its normal behavior. Or are you trashy if you have sex, drink or go to parties?

Define normal behavior.

Frankly, excepting for disrespect towards women and crack, Obama's lifestyle is fairly normal and harmless for teens.

Since normal doesn't exist and teen impulsivity can create harm, neither of these suppositions are accurate.

How about you don't stereotype an entire age group? Sure kids do plenty of irresponsible acts. However, thats because parents are not teaching them how to be responsible. Like it or not, its a statistical fact that most teens will end up drinking, smoking or having sex. Yet society and parents and the law don't recognize that. Thus, most teens have to commit such potentially harmful acts without any guidance. Its hard to do the right thing if nobody teaches you.

Being responsible means either not breaking the law (underage drinking) or accepting the consequences (not begging mom and dad to bail them out). Being responsible means taking responsibility for themselves and others; not drinking and driving, not having unprotected sex, not breaking rules or accepting the consequences of breaking those rules rather than whining. Most parents teach responssibility; it is some teens that chose to ignore those teachings.

In addition, its a grave insult to teens who actually are responsible. Many many teens study hard during the week, party during the weekend and get into top tier colleges.

These are the teens that are being responsible about partying. The are not drinking so much that they are unable to function in school or to study. The issue here is not, necessarily, 'what teens do', it is 'how the do it'.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

For teenagers, yes they are. Do you want mountains of statistics or my personal experiences in a wide variety of teen cultures? If I am correct, you are a parent with young children, so I doubt your experience matches mine.

I work with teens and have for 16 years. I can give you both stats and mountain ranges of personal experiences that the parties that Obama describes are not typical.

Assuming that Obama's claim that he used protection responsibly is true, there was nothing dangerous about his promiscuity.

The impulsivity is the issue; it can lead elsewhere. Also, one must take into account the emotional nature of teens and their reaction to the intimacy of sex.

And most teens do drink or smoke during highschool.



Alcohol and Teen Drinking

And thats from a site that is against teen drinking.

Your site offers no statistics. The definition of teen drinking can often be misleading. Approximately 75% of high school students indicated having had one drink in the past year. Does this count as teen drinking? No. This could refer to having wine at a religious ceremony or a toast at a party.

Other statistics that do indicate teen drinking are these. 22% of teens indicated that they had participated in 'binge drinking' (at least 5 or more drinks on the same occasion) at least once in the past month, and 6.6% of teens indicated that they were 'heavy drinkers' (5 or more drinks on the same occasion, at least 5 times in the past month). These percentages indicate that teen 'drinking' is not typical behavior.

Link: Results from the 2005 NSDUH: National Findings, SAMHSA Office of Applied Studies scroll to section 3.

Yes they are! I recently attended such a party held by a teen in light of her acceptance to Stanford.

As Stace said, this is an example of one who is being responsible.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Decriminalize alcohol for minors.

Inappropriate due to the tendancy towards impulsivity, emotionality, and experimentation of teens.

Schools should give full and comprehensive medical information about alcohol and its effects and how to treat alcohol poisoning.

I agree. Full comprehensive education on alcohol and all drugs and their effects should be mandatory.

Parents should instruct their kids on how to responsibly drink.

Parents should reinforce what is learned at school, and explain to kids what to do if they chose to drink.

They should also supervise their kids first times drinking to ensure safety.

If the parent is OK with their teen drinking, fine. If not, then absolutely not. It condones a behavior the parent doesn't agree with, one that because of impulsivity and maturity may become problematic.

Equating the health effects of alcohol with coke is horribly inaccurate and part of what causes drug problems in the first place.

Ridiculous. In some ways, alcohol is the most dangerous drug there is. Did you know that alcohol is the only drug you can die from if you try to detox youself from it without going into treatment?

Let me explain a scenario.: Teen gets lousy drug education that explains how evil coke and alcohol are. Teens drinks a few beer and realizes that alcohol isn't that bad. Teen realizing that he was lied to about booze, assumes that he was also lied to about cocaine. He then starting doing coke assuming that it will be just as bad as alcohol is.

Let's try this scenerio. Teen gets told that drinking is not too much of a problem. Teen drinks a few beers and realizes that the effects feel good. Since the teen learned that alcohol isn't that bad, and the teen really wants to feel good (there's that impulsivity), the teen keeps drinking, becoming a heavy/binge drinker.

 

[Flea]

rathi, sorry. I was grumpy yesterday and I "went off" a little bit. I apologize for that.

Originally Posted by rathi
Incorrect. I said that most American teens drink, than posted a link that supported my statement. That is not an opinion.

You posted a link that glazed over the issue. Dang, my dad gave me sips of beer regularly when I was 5 years old. I drank a beer when I was 10. I responded to surveys like this that I had done so. I maybe had another one or two over the next year. I didn't drink a drop of alcohol again until I was 20 years old. Stats are the greatest lying tool ever. Not that you are, that is just a saying. We have to operate off of experience. Obama's experience is not "normal" for society. Not even for teens. Not even for raging party animals. That is not "normal" in any sense of the word. And most kids that I knew that partied like that and went to raging house parties never engaged in that type of behavior. they laughed when they talked about it or were in schock, because it is abnormal behavior. It is crossing the line of normal.

Originally Posted by rathi
Strawman argument. I never argued that rich people cannot be trashy. I also has experience with them as well.

Not a stawman. It is just a point. By telling us that your friend that went to parties and engaged in this behavior and is now going to Stanford and implying that she has wonderful morals and is a great girl AND by dismissing my point that a person that typifies her (making it into Stanford and all that) does nothing to say that their behavior is not trashy or abnormal, you are indicating, repeatedly, that you don't agree wtih me. It is refreshing to hear you admit that you do, in fact, know people that are rich and can be trashy. That agrees with my point even if my point was unclear. We agree. We must now look at, not the persons accomplishments, but the behavior that the person exhibits. The way a person is generally defined, unfortunately, is to look at their "worst" behavior and that is a way to judge them. My uncle gave lots of money to kid charities, he also beat his wife and abused his kids. He is not a good guy no matter that he went to USC and gave lots of money away. He is trashy **** for beating his wife and abusing his kids. Having random sex and wild drug parties is the same thing. People die from other people lack of responsibility. I have had friends die from irresponsible partiers and die at parties being irresponsible. Maybe you don't like "trashy"? How would you describe it then?

Opinion is indeed a part of argument.

Of course it is. But you can't dismiss opinion just because it is not backed up by facts that you would accept. Sometimes opinion mirrors reality quite clearly.

I find myself agreeing with many of your comments, and normally respect your arguments

And I yours.

The problem is that your solution, which is trying to ban them, increases the consequences. If banning them for teens actually worked, I might have a different opinion.

I have not offered a solution yet. If you are operating off of an assumption that I have, then that could be leading to miscommunication. I agree with education and relaxing of some laws at the same time increasing others.

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
Teens tend to be more impulsive then adults. Recent research has shown that the parts of the brain that control impulsivity continue to develope throught the early 20's.

And that is why some states are trying to get the driving age up to 18 years old. I have read the scientific studies that back your statements.

Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy
Define normal behavior.

GREAT QUESTION!!!

These are the teens that are being responsible about partying.

Yes. I thought that it was understood that these kids were not part of the equation.

More later...

 

[rathi]

Teens tend to be more impulsive then adults. Recent research has shown that the parts of the brain that control impulsivity continue to develope throught the early 20's. Because of this the act of drinking or having sex can be impulsive behaviors or can lead to further impulsive behaviors. These are the problems with teen drinking and sex.

Correct.

The impulsivity is the issue; it can lead elsewhere. Also, one must take into account the emotional nature of teens and their reaction to the intimacy of sex.

Mysteriously, European teenagers are not nearly so afflicted with these "emotional issues" that make it so wrong for teens to have sex.

Your site offers no statistics. The definition of teen drinking can often be misleading. Approximately 75% of high school students indicated having had one drink in the past year. Does this count as teen drinking? No. This could refer to having wine at a religious ceremony or a toast at a party.

The average age at which Americans begin drinking regularly is 15.9 years old.

Inappropriate due to the tendancy towards impulsivity, emotionality, and experimentation of teens.

Then why do German teens have less alcohol related problems despite its legality? Banning alcohol does almost NOTHING to prevent its use. Prohibition works even worse on teens than it did on adults.

If the parent is OK with their teen drinking, fine. If not, then absolutely not. It condones a behavior the parent doesn't agree with, one that because of impulsivity and maturity may become problematic.

That only means that if the teen decides to drink, the parent won't have any knowledge or be able to help. Parents cannot prevent their teens from engaging in drinking or sex unless they keep them continually grounded.

Ridiculous. In some ways, alcohol is the most dangerous drug there is. Did you know that alcohol is the only drug you can die from if you try to detox youself from it without going into treatment?

Then why it is legal for adults then? Your kind of statements is why teens don't take "drug education" seriously. Claiming that alcohol is the most dangerous drug of all, while it is prevalent in almost every culture in the world, is simply incorrect. Alcohol can be dangerous. But it can be consumed in moderation without serious health problems. Meth is more dangerous than alcohol is nearly every possible way.

Let's try this scenerio. Teen gets told that drinking is not too much of a problem. Teen drinks a few beers and realizes that the effects feel good. Since the teen learned that alcohol isn't that bad, and the teen really wants to feel good (there's that impulsivity), the teen keeps drinking, becoming a heavy/binge drinker.

Notice how Germany has less binge drinking than we do. Simple economics make binge drinking more difficult in Germany. In America you drink your entire six back on Friday and Saturday, in Germany that six pack has to last the entire week.

 

[imprtnrd]

Teen drinking and sex has NOTHING to do with the orignal topic of this debate.