Facing Uncomfortable Truths

[Jack Hays]

Christians are still way ahead in the body count, even recently. The USA killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Maybe yes, maybe no on the body count, but they weren't killed in the name of religion so they're irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Ok so Hitler was not a white supremacist ..he did not murder 6 million Jews..or carry out unspeakable research on blacks..gypsies..etc..

This is racism..on a grand scale!!

Strawman. So what does anything that you've pointed out here have to do with Christianity? This was a war propagated by fascist states in an attempt to dominate real estate and resources......nothing more. The Holocaust was a tragic side effect of an evil, maniacal, and insane dictator who saw an opportunity to rally a nation by creating a scapegoat in the Jews and dehumanizing ....and sadly....ultimately murdering them to achieve his "ends." To imply that this war was primarily driven by racism or ethnic issues whose roots lie in religion.........shows nothing more than bias and ignorance of history. :shrug:

 

[Jack Hays]

Ok so Hitler was not a white supremacist ..he did not murder 6 million Jews..or carry out unspeakable research on blacks..gypsies..etc..

This is racism..on a grand scale!!

Hitler was indeed racist, but his racism & anti-semitism derived from racial, not religious bigotry. Although born a Catholic, Hitler left the church long before coming to power.

 

[Ray410]

Christians are still way ahead in the body count, even recently. The USA killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Nonsense.

No part of the war with Iraq or Afghanistan can be construed as a Christian or religious crusade against Muslims. The people the war is being waged against are Muslim terrorists that are a threat to the security of the United States. The fact of America being a Christian country is not the motivation for the American attacks in response to those Muslims. Do you think Obama would go to war on the side of Christians? Clinton joined forces in Bosnia with the Muslims against the Christians. Do you think Obama's drones are Christian forces?

Muslims kill homosexuals. Now, thanks to endless, loud homosexual demands to serve in the American military, homosexuals may serve openly in the US military and kill Muslims. Would you therefore now classify the Iraq/Afghanistan wars as a homosexual crusade against Muslims?

Your statement is dishonest, inflammatory demagoguery of the worst sort.

 

[Hard Truth]

Hard Truth, it's rather obvious to anyone that our current foreign policy is not based on Christianity, or religious ideals in general. Obviously this is different than people waging war explicitly based on various religious interpretations and ideals.

In fact, it's amazing that people even need this pointed out to them, being that it's so blatantly obvious. But you, and others, will continue to ignore this and repeat yourselves every time a similar issue is raised

It's rather sad watching people enthusiastically embrace ignorance as if it were a virtue

Everytime I and others argue for keeping the USA's government secular, conservative religionists argue that we are a Christian nation. I disagree, but Christianity has a huge influence on our policies.

Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and other terrorists had social, political and religious goals in their attacks. The USA attacked the people of Iraq and Afghanistan largely in retaliation for 9/11. We held all of the people of both countries responsible for the 9/11 attacks even though a miniscule portion of the people had anything to do with it..largely because they were Muslims. That is not the official story, but that is what I saw while it was happening. I don't believe we would have responded so violently if the 9/11 attacks were carried out by a small number of extreme Christian terrorists from a Christian nation.

Even if you don't count recent Christian USA/Western violence, Christianity has more blood on its hands thanks to the Holocaust and genocide of Native Americans, which were definitely religiously motivated. (there's also numerous Catholic vs. protestant killings, the Inquisistion and Crusades)

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

Everytime I and others argue for keeping the USA's government secular, conservative religionists argue that we are a Christian nation. I disagree, but Christianity has a huge influence on our policies.

I'm not even sure what purpose the above comment even holds

Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and other terrorists had social, political and religious goals in their attacks.

social and political goals dependent on their interpretation of a religion, islam.

The USA attacked the people of Iraq and Afghanistan largely in retaliation for 9/11. We held all of the people of both countries responsible for the 9/11 attacks even though a miniscule portion of the people had anything to do with it..largely because they were Muslims.

Really? I thought it was because both were scene as sources of "terror". But we also vamped the rhetoric up against NK due to similar reasons, and they are definitely not islamic, in anyway

That is not the official story, but that is what I saw while it was happening. I don't believe we would have responded so violently if the 9/11 attacks were carried out by a small number of extreme Christian terrorists from a Christian nation.

yes, we likely would have

Even if you don't count recent Christian USA/Western violence, Christianity has more blood on its hands thanks to the Holocaust and genocide of Native Americans, which were definitely religiously motivated. (there's also numerous Catholic vs. protestant killings, the Inquisistion and Crusades)

the holocaust was about ethnicity. Read up on things like the Nuremberg laws and racial antisemitism. Not sure about the Native Americans, being it seemed more about taking resources away from more primitive peoples

 

[FluffyNinja]

Everytime I and others argue for keeping the USA's government secular, conservative religionists argue that we are a Christian nation. I disagree, but Christianity has a huge influence on our policies.

Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and other terrorists had social, political and religious goals in their attacks. The USA attacked the people of Iraq and Afghanistan largely in retaliation for 9/11. We held all of the people of both countries responsible for the 9/11 attacks even though a miniscule portion of the people had anything to do with it..largely because they were Muslims. That is not the official story, but that is what I saw while it was happening. I don't believe we would have responded so violently if the 9/11 attacks were carried out by a small number of extreme Christian terrorists from a Christian nation.

Even if you don't count recent Christian USA/Western violence, Christianity has more blood on its hands thanks to the Holocaust and genocide of Native Americans, which were definitely religiously motivated. (there's also numerous Catholic vs. protestant killings, the Inquisistion and Crusades)

I am a conservative Christian (I suppose this qualifies as a "religionist") and I've never once been under the delusion that the United States was a Christian Nation. Founded upon Christian principles by mostly religious men......yes............but a Christian Nation, led by truly Christian leaders and driven by Christian doctrine in its foreign and domestic policies.....absolutely not!

I think you may be thinking in stereotypical fashion here......most true Christians would recognize and admit that what we have is not exactly what Christ would "sign off on" as a Christian nation....but rather, a nation where a bunch of people claim to be Christian....but only primarily when it benefits them to do so. :shrug:

 

[Hard Truth]

I am a conservative Christian (I suppose this qualifies as a "religionist") and I've never once been under the delusion that the United States was a Christian Nation. Founded upon Christian principles by mostly religious men......yes............but a Christian Nation, led by truly Christian leaders and driven by Christian doctrine in its foreign and domestic policies.....absolutely not!

I think you may be thinking in stereotypical fashion here......most true Christians would recognize and admit that what we have is not exactly what Christ would "sign off on" as a Christian nation....but rather, a nation where a bunch of people claim to be Christian....but only primarily when it benefits them to do so. :shrug:

But I will add:
....a nation where a bunch of people claim to be Christian....but only primarily when it benefits them to do so, such as when they want to sell a war to the public.

There was a reason why Bush II used the word "crusade" at least once when discussing the "anti-terror" wars.

 

[FluffyNinja]

But I will add:
....a nation where a bunch of people claim to be Christian....but only primarily when it benefits them to do so, such as when they want to sell a war to the public.

There was a reason why Bush II used the word "crusade" at least once when discussing the "anti-terror" wars.

One can infer what one wants, but I don't ever remember anyone in a postion of authority on our side making the open claim this was a religious war pitting Christians against Muslims.

 

[RGacky3]

Even if you don't count recent Christian USA/Western violence, Christianity has more blood on its hands thanks to the Holocaust and genocide of Native Americans, which were definitely religiously motivated. (there's also numerous Catholic vs. protestant killings, the Inquisistion and Crusades)

That wasn't religiously motivated at all, it was economics and imperialistic, of coarse in a deeply religious world they will try and justify it using religion, but it wasn't religious in the least, I'd also like to point out that some of the ONLY defenders of the native americans were priests, infact part of the only reason we know about those genocides were extremely brave priests that put themselves at risk in the service of native american security and documenting the terror against them.

 

[Snake Oil]

I am a conservative Christian (I suppose this qualifies as a "religionist") and I've never once been under the delusion that the United States was a Christian Nation. Founded upon Christian principles by mostly religious men......yes............but a Christian Nation, led by truly Christian leaders and driven by Christian doctrine in its foreign and domestic policies.....absolutely not!

I think you may be thinking in stereotypical fashion here......most true Christians would recognize and admit that what we have is not exactly what Christ would "sign off on" as a Christian nation....but rather, a nation where a bunch of people claim to be Christian....but only primarily when it benefits them to do so. :shrug:

How would you found a nation on the principles of "turn the other cheek" and "take no thought for tomorrow?"

 

[FluffyNinja]

How would you found a nation on the principles of "turn the other cheek" and "take no thought for tomorrow?"

Did I say founded upon EVERY principle of Christianity?

 

[Hard Truth]

That [genocide of Native Americans] wasn't religiously motivated at all, it was economics and imperialistic, of coarse in a deeply religious world they will try and justify it using religion, but it wasn't religious in the least, I'd also like to point out that some of the ONLY defenders of the native americans were priests, infact part of the only reason we know about those genocides were extremely brave priests that put themselves at risk in the service of native american security and documenting the terror against them.

Not much to disagree with in your post. But...when a particular religion has doctrine that can be easily used to justify hate or greed, then that religion has to be held responsible to some degree. Some religions have a worse track record for being used to justify hate and greed than others. Historically, Christianity in most of its forms has a terrible record in that regard, with Islam probably in second place. Quakers, Budhists and Sufis, among others don't have as much of a bloody history.

 

[Snake Oil]

Did I say founded upon EVERY principle of Christianity?

Ok, which principles did you mean?

 

[FluffyNinja]

Ok, which principles did you mean?

charity, personal freedom, unalienable rights, sanctity of life, caring for the "least among you", religious tolerance(as Christ never endorsed forcing His doctrines upon those who choose not to accept them), etc. :shrug:

 

[Peter Grimm]

I always thought it was odd how atheist hate Christianity but are pretty tolerant of other religions.

I don't find it odd in the least.

 

[Peter Grimm]

Deuteronomy 13:6-11

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

Literally commands you to kill anyone who even suggests worshiping another god to terrorize future dissenters into submission.

Try again.

I see nothing wrong with this. It's the word of God. If we actually followed it, we wouldn't live in such a depraved culture, and the world would be a much better place.

 

[RGacky3]

Not much to disagree with in your post. But...when a particular religion has doctrine that can be easily used to justify hate or greed, then that religion has to be held responsible to some degree. Some religions have a worse track record for being used to justify hate and greed than others. Historically, Christianity in most of its forms has a terrible record in that regard, with Islam probably in second place. Quakers, Budhists and Sufis, among others don't have as much of a bloody history.

EVERY doctrine can be used to justify hate, liberalism (france), socialism (Ussr), conservatism (the US), buddism (tibet), Hinduism (caste system) and so on and so forth.

There is NOTHING inherent in actual christianity that can be used to justify hate or greed, it takes ignoring the christian message. (Quakers are christians), (Sufis have never held real political power).

Christianities worse track record comes when people were not allowed to read the gospel, I judge christianity by the actual message though, not by how imperialists have tried to use it.

 

[Paschendale]

I see nothing wrong with this. It's the word of God. If we actually followed it, we wouldn't live in such a depraved culture, and the world would be a much better place.

You see nothing wrong with murdering people because they disagree with you? We wouldn't live in "such a depraved culture" if blasphemy and apostasy were capital crimes? The world would be a better place is our culture more resembled that of the Taliban's? And you think that a culture based on reason is depraved?

 

[American]

Ya remember when we fought "them" in Iraq and Afghanistan? Cowards and poseurs the whole way.

So we fought atheists in Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[American]

Christians already did all that...

Really? Then I guess it didn't work.

 

[Ikari]

I don't find it odd in the least.

There's nothing odd to find given that atheists in the West are well more likely to have to deal with Christians than any other religion given the demographics.

 

[Sherman123]

charity, personal freedom, unalienable rights, sanctity of life, caring for the "least among you", religious tolerance(as Christ never endorsed forcing His doctrines upon those who choose not to accept them), etc. :shrug:

One could probably argue whether or not Christianity inherently includes all of those things to be quite honest. Historically what has made Christianity so unique among the Abrahamic faiths and arguably what allowed it to be used more easily as a vehicle for the enlightenment is that Christianity unlike Judaism and Islam has no encompassing legal code. It is almost purely a spiritual and moral work and has thus proven extremely malleable.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

You see nothing wrong with murdering people because they disagree with you? We wouldn't live in "such a depraved culture" if blasphemy and apostasy were capital crimes? The world would be a better place is our culture more resembled that of the Taliban's? And you think that a culture based on reason is depraved?

Actually much of the Islamic world supports the death penalty for apostosy(and if not a majority, a very significant minority). And it is something, in no way, limited to Islamic extremists

 

[Paschendale]

Actually much of the Islamic world supports the death penalty for apostosy(and if not a majority, a very significant minority). And it is something, in no way, limited to Islamic extremists

And Peter Grim supports it, too. He's certainly not an extremist, not like the Westboro guys or the ones who picket abortion clinics. I guess Christians and Muslims aren't that different, and it doesn't take extremists to kill and oppress people.