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Explaining Why Federal Deficits Are Needed[W:5330]

We already went over this. Reread the last 50 pages if you need help remembering.

No such answer in those 50 pages just more leftwing rhetoric. There is no reason that govt. spending as a percentage of GDP is relevant in a private sector economy and you know it but cannot admit it
 
In what way did I move the goalposts?

The subject is "Can the US absorb more people today than it could in 1804?"

The answer is "Yes, because we are 150 times more efficient with food production today than we were in 1804."

All this talk about land and natural resources is totally irrelevant.

You're right, we don't have gold and silver mines readily accessible any more. But what bearing does this have on anything? Our economy isn't based on natural resource extraction, unlike many other countries.

We have plenty of land for 300 million more people. As evidenced by the fact that most of the US landmass is scarcely inhabited. Even in California, the most populous state in the country... most of the land is desolate. Including a large portion of the coastline.

US population density is only 35/sq km. The world average is 57. And in India, it's 441.

Sorry man.. the answer is still no.

Land and natural resources are not totally irrelevant. That's nuts. Yes.. we have more potenial to grow than other countries... that does not mean we did not have more potential to grow WHEN WE HAD A LOT LESS POPULATION AND WERE UNDEVELOPED...

sheesh... move on..

You were wrong....you shot your mouth off without thinking.. move on.
 
Not so fast there, Skippy - if the government can mandate a minimum wage and fringe benefit package increase then that is certainly "setting wages". That 20 states have taken that concept even further than the federal government did (yet none can go the opposite way) should be more troubling. One has to remember that the federal government gets (at least) $0.15 of every $1 added by a MW increase (in payroll taxes alone). If I got a 15% commission on all additional mandated labor costs then I just might favor that unfunded mandate idea too. ;)

I see.. so mandating a minimum wage means that I won't be able to decide what wage to pay my employees because they will be "set"?


Hmmm.. I own a lot of businesses.. and have numerous employees.. and golly.. the wages I pay are not "set" by the federal government. I still have to negotiate a wage with my employees and it goes up and down on the market.

Got it "skippy".
 
Dude.. you are the one that's twisting yourself into shapes.


Can you not just admit that you are wrong and move on?

Good god man.

You have two scenarios.

A country that's is virtually undeveloped..

And a country the same size that is ALREADY DEVELOPED (in fact its the same country). That already has stress on its environment.. that has stress on its natural resources and is having to use more resources to produce fertilizers to keep its soil productive...

And you claim that the already developed country.. has more capacity to increase its population than the same country.. undeveloped?

That's nuts.

Sorry man.. but if you have a brand new 5 bedroom house with no one living in it.

and the same size brand 5 bedroom house with 10 people living in it.

The brand new house can still fit more new people into it.

All your twisting and diversion with "urbanization" etc cannot change that basic fact.

Sorry, but I have to jump in here.

Jaeger, your premise that it is easier to sprinkle immigrants on undeveloped land and expect them to survive than it is to absorb them into a well-developed, EXISTING society is just crazy.

Take your 5 bedroom house analogy - a more appropriate analogy would be sticking immigrants on a vacant lot where a 5 bedroom house could be built, but isn't, as opposed to adding them to the existing house. Yes, they probably have more space in the vacant lot, but that's it. I'd rather share the roof, the plumbing, the heat, and the electricity with a few other people. And I think you'd be banging on our door, too, were you relegated to the vacant lot.

We aren't short on resources. And we use our resources far more efficiently today than a bunch of homesteaders ever did.
 
But they don't, so it's irrelevant.

]

But they do. so its not irrelevant.

Apple imports make up less than 8% of domestic consumption, so that market wouldn't be impacted.

Of course it will be impacted.

Most beef is already labeled by origin, so I don't see how you'd eliminate the demand for those subsidies either.

No its not. Once its processed in the US there is no requirement for it to be labeled.

The burger eat could be from argentina.. or mexico.. or Canada..

So do you have a problem with crop insurance? I'm not sure how your proposal would eliminate the value of it.

I have problem with it being subsidized by taxpayers.

US oil subsidies don't significantly determine price. Global subsidies do. Or do you dispute that?

Nope.. as I said.. US oil subsidizes (and we were talking about US subsidies) don't have much effect on price.

My point is that as a general policy, countries should not subsidize dirty fuel sources. They only encourage dependency on damaging fuel sources, not only to our environment but also to our bodies.

Wow,... that's another change of the goal posts. holy crap batman..you are running around with them around in your arms..

We are discussing US subsidies and US economy.. and suddenly now.. its "general policy countries should not subsidize dirty fuel sources"..

Cripes. a few posts ago you were supporting US oil subsidies because you claimed they kept oil prices low.

Come on man.
 
You have two scenarios.

A country that's is virtually undeveloped..

And a country the same size that is ALREADY DEVELOPED (in fact its the same country)
<snip>
Sorry man.. but if you have a brand new 5 bedroom house with no one living in it.

and the same size brand 5 bedroom house with 10 people living in it.

That analogy does not work the way you think it does.

A brand new 5 bedroom house is analogous to a developed country.

An empty plot of land is analogous to an undeveloped country.

Yes, a two story, 5 bedroom house with 4 people living in it has a greater capacity to house people than an empty plot of land with 1 person living on it.

That already has stress on its environment.. that has stress on its natural resources and is having to use more resources to produce fertilizers to keep its soil productive...

And you claim that the already developed country.. has more capacity to increase its population than the same country.. undeveloped?

Correct, because those fertilizers did not exist, and therefore could not be used to help feed 25 million new people in a decade. (US population was able to grow by 25 million from 2005-2015.)

You are viewing the country of 1804 through the lens of the 20th/21st century with respect to technology/infrastructure. As you put it,

That's nuts.
 
Sorry man.. the answer is still no.

Land and natural resources are not totally irrelevant. That's nuts. Yes.. we have more potenial to grow than other countries... that does not mean we did not have more potential to grow WHEN WE HAD A LOT LESS POPULATION AND WERE UNDEVELOPED...

sheesh... move on..

You were wrong....you shot your mouth off without thinking.. move on.

It is you who has moved the goalposts. The discussion was about whether the US could more easily sustain new population growth in 1804 than it can today. That is false.

Now you've changed the subject to talking about growth potential, which is entirely different.
 
Sorry, but I have to jump in here.

Jaeger, your premise that it is easier to sprinkle immigrants on undeveloped land and expect them to survive than it is to absorb them into a well-developed, EXISTING society is just crazy.

Take your 5 bedroom house analogy - a more appropriate analogy would be sticking immigrants on a vacant lot where a 5 bedroom house could be built, but isn't, as opposed to adding them to the existing house. Yes, they probably have more space in the vacant lot, but that's it. I'd rather share the roof, the plumbing, the heat, and the electricity with a few other people. And I think you'd be banging on our door, too, were you relegated to the vacant lot.

We aren't short on resources. And we use our resources far more efficiently today than a bunch of homesteaders ever did.

I'm amused. I wrote something very similar without reading this.
 
But they do. so its not irrelevant.

Why does the US have $3.6 trillion in needed infrastructure projects if private companies are supposedly already working on them?

If you don't think they're already working on those projects, then how in the world can you think that the infrastructure investment will compete with the private industry?

I'm not following your argument at all.

Of course it will be impacted.

For somebody who has provided no evidence, you seem exceptionally certain of a lot of things.

No its not. Once its processed in the US there is no requirement for it to be labeled.

The burger eat could be from argentina.. or mexico.. or Canada..

*shrug*

The meat I buy is marked as raised in California. I can't speak for you.

I have problem with it being subsidized by taxpayers.

Why? They serve a valuable purpose - assuring farmers that they won't be screwed over in the event of a bad year of weather. This in turn encourages farmers to continue operating.

Nope.. as I said.. US oil subsidizes (and we were talking about US subsidies) don't have much effect on price.

This is the same logic that leads many Republicans to conclude that the US shouldn't bother taking any action on climate change, since US emissions make up such a small fraction of global emissions.

Wow,... that's another change of the goal posts. holy crap batman..you are running around with them around in your arms..

We are discussing US subsidies and US economy.. and suddenly now.. its "general policy countries should not subsidize dirty fuel sources"..

Cripes. a few posts ago you were supporting US oil subsidies because you claimed they kept oil prices low.

Come on man.

So remind me, which part of this has changed?

The reason I oppose subsidies to Big Oil is simple - I don't think the government is doing people any favors by pushing down gas prices. When gas prices are low, people are less likely to worry about a car's fuel efficiency rating - which is bad for our environment, bad for public health, and bad for innovation.

- government does subsidize Big Oil
- government subsidies do push down gas prices. (US government oil subsidies specifically account for a tiny percentage of global oil subsidies, but they all contribute to increased supply and therefore lower prices)
- dirty fuel sources are bad for our environment and for health

And I CERTAINLY never said I SUPPORTED oil subsidies.
 
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Sorry, but I have to jump in here.

Jaeger, your premise that it is easier to sprinkle immigrants on undeveloped land and expect them to survive than it is to absorb them into a well-developed, EXISTING society is just crazy.

Take your 5 bedroom house analogy - a more appropriate analogy would be sticking immigrants on a vacant lot where a 5 bedroom house could be built, but isn't, as opposed to adding them to the existing house. Yes, they probably have more space in the vacant lot, but that's it. I'd rather share the roof, the plumbing, the heat, and the electricity with a few other people. And I think you'd be banging on our door, too, were you relegated to the vacant lot.

We aren't short on resources. And we use our resources far more efficiently today than a bunch of homesteaders ever did.

sorry but wrong. The premise is CAPACITY.

And there is more CAPACITY with the empty house.

and yes John.. we do have issues with resources. Water, Oil, Land (and soil) , Timber, Metals,... we do have an issue with resources
 
Why does the US have $3.6 trillion in needed infrastructure projects if private companies are supposedly already working on them?

.

Because they are already working on our infrastructure. We have constant maintenance of our bridges and highways.

If projects that would normally be done by private companies..go to public workers programs.. then the private companies will get hurt.

I think you understand that.. you are simply being obtuse.

For somebody who has provided no evidence, you seem exceptionally certain of a lot of things.

I provided evidence.... you just didn't like it and tried to downplay the impact.. but an impact it will have. You wanted an example of how it would impact "other agriculture" and I pointed it out.

The meat I buy is marked as raised in California. I can't speak for you.

Nice deflection. I am a cattle producer. so maybe I know the laws and industry just a bit more.. huh?

Why? They serve a valuable purpose - assuring farmers that they won't be screwed over in the event of a bad year of weather. This in turn encourages farmers to continue operating.

lets see.. .1. because its not necessary. and that money that goes to subsidy could be better used elsewhere.
2. its abused quite frequently.
3. Because the insurance is subsidized.. it can encourage farmers to plant crops in questionable areas or years.. etc.. because they make money if it fails.

This is the same logic that leads many Republicans to conclude that the US shouldn't bother taking any action on climate change, since US emissions make up such a small fraction of global emissions.

And that is as flawed as your position on agricultural subsidies don't need action because it such a small fraction etc.


So remind me, which part of this has changed?

that's a nuanced position you took after I pointed out that US oil subsidies do not "hold down prices".
 
It is you who has moved the goalposts. The discussion was about whether the US could more easily sustain new population growth in 1804 than it can today. That is false.

Now you've changed the subject to talking about growth potential, which is entirely different.

The ability to sustain new population growth is growth potential... its not entirely different.

Cripes man.. its easy to see whats happened. You have failed utterly to counter the points on the economy I have made and now your ego is going down these useless tangents looking for something to disagree with me.

Buck up camper. Sheesh.:doh
 
sorry but wrong. The premise is CAPACITY.

And there is more CAPACITY with the empty house.

and yes John.. we do have issues with resources. Water, Oil, Land (and soil) , Timber, Metals,... we do have an issue with resources

Well, you still lose on that one.

How many acres did it take to sustain one person in, what was it, 1806? And how many acres does it take to sustain one person in 2016?

Think of what it took: a well for every family, irrigation from nearby streams, more land for livestock, and all for a relatively poor yield.

Now, we have water and sewer systems that serve whole cities, apartment buildings that can house far more people in far less acreage, and fantastic yields per acre. Far less waste today.

It's not even close.
 
Well, you still lose on that one.

How many acres did it take to sustain one person in, what was it, 1806? And how many acres does it take to sustain one person in 2016?

Think of what it took: a well for every family, irrigation from nearby streams, more land for livestock, and all for a relatively poor yield.

Now, we have water and sewer systems that serve whole cities, apartment buildings that can house far more people in far less acreage, and fantastic yields per acre. Far less waste today.

It's not even close.

Nope.. I won't lose.

Because John.. the history is that we are where we are today.. NOT because of efficiency.. but because there WAS amazing capacity in our land and resources.

We have all the things BECAUSE of those resources.. and then you think "gee.. they weren't needed".

that's why you aren't even close.
 
Dude.. you are the one that's twisting yourself into shapes.


Can you not just admit that you are wrong and move on?

Good god man.

You have two scenarios.

A country that's is virtually undeveloped..

And a country the same size that is ALREADY DEVELOPED (in fact its the same country). That already has stress on its environment.. that has stress on its natural resources and is having to use more resources to produce fertilizers to keep its soil productive...

And you claim that the already developed country.. has more capacity to increase its population than the same country.. undeveloped?

That's nuts.

Sorry man.. but if you have a brand new 5 bedroom house with no one living in it.

and the same size brand 5 bedroom house with 10 people living in it.

The brand new house can still fit more new people into it.

All your twisting and diversion with "urbanization" etc cannot change that basic fact.

I think I get it Mr J: You're a yoga instructor! All that twisting and bending has seepted into your consciousness.

Your house analogy is a poor one. It is suggestive of a fixed space, one not intended for expansion. There is absolutely no indication today that the US is "fixed" in regard to an expanding population. In fact a number of countries, such as the UK or Germany, have a much greater population density, yet manage to have an even more livable environment than the US. The UK had a much worse environment in the past, and is doing better today, even with a greater population.

Advances in technology and environmental awareness tend to allow for greater populations than before. Cutting down the forests, and taking a dump in the nearby stream are not the most sustainable practices, but that was all that was available in times gone by. Urbanization is indeed the key fact here, as living in compact and ecologically aware cities reduces the impact on the larger environment- farmland, rangeland, forests, parks and wildlife reserves. Living in compact areas means less expenditure of energy resources for transport, and less cost for providing infrastructure such as water supply, sewage, power lines, etc.

Take the population of New York, and tell them to go out and scavenge at the level of 1804 technology, and they would strip the surrounding countryside bare in a few weeks, in an effort to survive. At today's level of technology though, they do just fine even with densities like those in Manhattan.

You have no "basic fact" here, as the limits of population are uncertain, and changeable with developing technologies. If some of today's green innovations pan out, we may see a future with previously unimaginable populations. Certainly today, the US is a long way from being "full".
 
Because they are already working on our infrastructure. We have constant maintenance of our bridges and highways.

And you think our public bridges and highways are being repaved/etc with private businesses? Please support this claim with evidence.

Nice deflection. I am a cattle producer. so maybe I know the laws and industry just a bit more.. huh?

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/Documents/fdblabel.pdf
"Certain label information, such as the responsible firm's name and address and ingredient declaration, is required."

If the firm's name is available, couldn't an interested consumer just look up the firm's name and find out where the beef is?

Or is your complaint that the information is too hard to find?

I provided evidence.... you just didn't like it and tried to downplay the impact.. but an impact it will have. You wanted an example of how it would impact "other agriculture" and I pointed it out.
<snip>
lets see.. .1. because its not necessary. and that money that goes to subsidy could be better used elsewhere.
2. its abused quite frequently.
3. Because the insurance is subsidized.. it can encourage farmers to plant crops in questionable areas or years.. etc.. because they make money if it fails.

Honestly, I don't know if all agriculture subsidies are ideal. But I see definite advantages to them, because they encourage firms to grow crops when, without the subsidies, there's a good chance they wouldn't operate. This would result in reduction of supply, a rise in costs, and takes money out of the consumer's pocket.

This is the general principle behind all subsidies. They're a wealth redistribution mechanism which takes money from the overall population (disproportionately from the rich) and provides benefits to everybody, but provide the greatest benefit to low-income consumers. I just don't see food source labeling as a substitute for this, and I haven't seen you provide any data to suggest that it would serve as a substitute. You claim you've provided evidence, but I don't remember seeing any. You explained your rationale, but no data to support your claim.

And that is as flawed as your position on agricultural subsidies don't need action because it such a small fraction etc.

Then you agree. The environment IS a good reason to not subsidize oil. So why were you arguing about this?

that's a nuanced position you took after I pointed out that US oil subsidies do not "hold down prices".

:confused:

I think you need to reread what was said if that's what you think.
 
The ability to sustain new population growth is growth potential... its not entirely different.

Cripes man.. its easy to see whats happened. You have failed utterly to counter the points on the economy I have made and now your ego is going down these useless tangents looking for something to disagree with me.

Buck up camper. Sheesh.:doh

You remember how this started?
honestly.. the idea that the US can "absorb more immigrants" now than prior to 1874 is absurd.

Why is that absurd?

708f794f6f9e43b997f918295ce06775.png

Legal Immigration to the United States, 1820-Present | migrationpolicy.org

This wasn't about "growth potential". It's about the ability of the economy to absorb immigrants more easily now than in the 1800s.

Accept it. You've diverted the discussion so far you can't even follow your arguments.
 
I think I get it Mr J: You're a yoga instructor! All that twisting and bending has seepted into your consciousness.

Your house analogy is a poor one. It is suggestive of a fixed space, one not intended for expansion. There is absolutely no indication today that the US is "fixed" in regard to an expanding population. In fact a number of countries, such as the UK or Germany, have a much greater population density, yet manage to have an even more livable environment than the US. The UK had a much worse environment in the past, and is doing better today, even with a greater population.

Advances in technology and environmental awareness tend to allow for greater populations than before. Cutting down the forests, and taking a dump in the nearby stream are not the most sustainable practices, but that was all that was available in times gone by. Urbanization is indeed the key fact here, as living in compact and ecologically aware cities reduces the impact on the larger environment- farmland, rangeland, forests, parks and wildlife reserves. Living in compact areas means less expenditure of energy resources for transport, and less cost for providing infrastructure such as water supply, sewage, power lines, etc.

Take the population of New York, and tell them to go out and scavenge at the level of 1804 technology, and they would strip the surrounding countryside bare in a few weeks, in an effort to survive. At today's level of technology though, they do just fine even with densities like those in Manhattan.

You have no "basic fact" here, as the limits of population are uncertain, and changeable with developing technologies. If some of today's green innovations pan out, we may see a future with previously unimaginable populations. Certainly today, the US is a long way from being "full".

My god man.. just stop.

A developed country that has already used up resources..

has less growth potential than that's same country that still has all its resources and is largely untouched by development.

Its just that simple... no matter the gymnastics that you are willing to go through to try and prove a losing point.

Cripes man.. now you liberals are arguing that we don't have issues with resources.. and presumably now.. pollution.. greenhouse gases, and everything else associated with population growth does not matter.

Sheesh. :doh
 
You remember how this started?




This wasn't about "growth potential". It's about the ability of the economy to absorb immigrants more easily now than in the 1800s.

Accept it. You've diverted the discussion so far you can't even follow your arguments.

The ability to absorb more people (immigrants) is growth potential..
 
And you think our public bridges and highways are being repaved/etc with private businesses? Please support this claim with evidence.
.

http://tetoncountyidaho.gov/pdf/codePolicy/PW_Private_Work_on_Public_Roads.pdf

This article presents the top 300 federal highway contractors for 2003. The list provides an analysis of federal highway contract award data for 2003 as released by the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA). The contractors are ranked according to the total dollar amount representing the sum of all federal highway contracts awarded for projects on the National Highway System (NHS) for 2003, including awards to subsidiaries and regional offices and a pro-rated share of joint ventures

https://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=687558


Top federal highway contractor receives $490 million in awards


Equipment World Staff | December 16, 2003

Peter Kiewit Sons’ of Omaha, Neb., is the country’s largest federal highway contractor for the second consecutive year, according to the American Road & Transportation Builders Association. The company received almost $490 million for its federal highway work in 2002.

Some of the other highway contractors listed in ARTBA’s “Top 300 Federal Highway Contractors” include APAC, based in Atlanta, which ranked in second place with $370,952,935 in federal awards last year. Third place was awarded to Manson of Seattle, which brought in $347,847,000 in 2002. Williams Brothers Construction of Houston placed fourth with $261,902,870 in awards and Slattery Skanska of Whitestone, N.Y., ranked fifthwith $245,561,099 in 2002.


P3 Bridge Project Awarded

Posted on October 24, 2014


Today at 11:00 AM the Pennsylvania P3 board in conjunction with Penn DOT announced that the Walsh team has won the competition for the Public-Private Partnership for the Rapid Bridge Replacement program. This program will replace 558 bridges in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania over the next 48 months.

GOH is a construction partner of the winning team. The development team consists of Walsh and Granite together with a financial partner Plenary. GOH participated over the past 6 months with Walsh and the other regional partners to construct the bid that won this competition. GOH will play a major role in the construction phase of the project in northern and central PA over the next few years.

The production phase will begin in 2015 following project organization and final bridge designs.

Several innovative concepts will be employed to utilize precast elements. Our sister company Northeast Prestressed Products will benefit by supplying many beams to the construction of these bridges. Overall, it will provide a nice workload to GOH over the next few years. We are pleased to be part of the winning team and looking forward to working with Walsh and Granite over the next few years.


Well lets see.. now you will be silent on this issue..

so what are you going to divert the conversation to now? Whether polka dots are in fashion this year or not?
 
And you think our public bridges and highways are being repaved/etc with private businesses? Please support this claim with evidence.

That's pretty much the major transmission of infrastructure building and repair; private contractors dominate the industry. Various state Departments of Transportation advise based on zoning, code, etc...., but much, if not all of the actual work is done by private contractors. In the state of Illinois for example, "The actual construction of projects identified in IDOT's Multi-Modal Multi-Year Transportation Improvement Program is outside of IDOT's scope of work."

Government agencies are simply not good at managing large scale construction projects. This applies across pretty much every facit of government expenditure.

If something needs to be built, it will be done so by the private sector.
 
I see.. so mandating a minimum wage means that I won't be able to decide what wage to pay my employees because they will be "set"?
.
yes set at minimum wage or higher when they should be set by the free market to maximize efficiency of economy.
 
The ability to absorb more people (immigrants) is growth potential..

Okay, we'll go with your definition if it avoids arguing semantics.

Do you accept that America's population has increased by 25 million over the last decade?

Do you accept that America's population increased by 12 million from 1870 to 1880?

Assuming you accept these two facts, why are you stating that growth potential is lower today than it was in the 1870s?

Do not use "land constraints" as an excuse. We've already established that there are no constraints on land.

And "natural resources" is not a valid reason either. The vast majority of Americans' livelihoods do not depend on natural resources. This is demonstrable through this: Employment by major industry sector

Total (2014): 150M
Agriculture, forestry, fishing, and hunting: 2.138M
Mining: 843.8K
In total, about 3M jobs, or 2%, are based on natural resources.
 
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