Expansion of the Welfare State: Natural Part of Human Destiny?

[Morality Games]

As the robotics industry develops it will create new jobs because the new robotic infrastructure will require a lot of human maintenance, but eventually technology will reach a point where this sort of oversight will be extremely minimal: basically a small department of government bureaucrats will be able to oversee the 99% self-repairing robot-run and operated labor economy.

Since this "basically" means all the work that humans had to do to survive, grow, and flourish throughout history is now being overseen by a semi-intelligent force that takes care of itself, isn't the gradual movement of the entire human population into a welfare state where no one has to work a normal part of human development?

Isn't the historical emergence of welfare states in the early 20th century just the normal beginning of a process that will come to an 100-200 years from now, when every human will receive a government-issued robot manservant at birth?

In essence robots are like slaves in the American South or the Roman Empire; southern planters and Roman citizens were able to pursue their own gentrified interests and curiosities while slaves did almost everything, including government administrative work.

Basically the future is one where robot labor empowers everyone to live like the Granthams in Downton Abbey -- spending all day putting on fancy clothes and going to parties -- because no physical labor demands their effort or attention.

 

[Henrin]

Why do people think that labor no longer being needed would either lead to an expansion of the welfare state, socialism, or communism? If people are more independent because they don't need to work to make a living exactly how does that lead to collectivism?

If machines are doing the jobs needed to provide people their needs it would seem to me that the entire system of collectivist goals goes right out the window.

 

[274ina]

Time for Sparicus to come back, run around USA, defeating the police and running the slave masters out of USA>

They can live in China or Dubai justfine. Lots of slaves there.

 

[Morality Games]

Why do people think that labor no longer being needed would either lead to an expansion of the welfare state, socialism, or communism? If people are more independent because they don't need to work to make a living exactly how does that lead to collectivism?

If machines are doing the jobs needed to provide people their needs it would seem to me that the entire system of collectivist goals goes right out the window.

I can't imagine what the future of a robot-run economy will be like, but I imagine its initial evolution will be like fracking. Although fracking in America creates a product, its effect on global demand risks driving down prices to the extent that the labor needed to run and maintain the machines that extract it from the earth ceases to be cost effective enough to attract the financing from accounting and equity firms to continue operating the equipment. Therefore resulting in tiny recessions where fields and equipment are dismantled or abandoned.

Robotics is squared in the same dilemma, but applicable to a far wider index than just the energy market. In a capitalist system, robots capable of performing almost any human economic task in a cost-efficient manner will result in recurrent labor recessions in every single industry robotics operates in as lack of employment leads to massive shortfalls in capital among the broader public. As a system that rewards initiative through a greater share in the distribution of resources, capitalism will cease to work on a society-spanning level because . . . nobody will be able to show initiative when robots can do 99.9% of the jobs better.

It can be the government or it can be anarchist commune of free association, but some new institution and law will have to develop to assume efficient and safe control over the robotic economy and whatever remaining human element will be needed to keep it running. After all, one apocalyptic nut with a virus could bring about the end of the world if there is no security apparatus to stop him from taking control of everything through the Internet.

 

[lizzie]

In essence robots are like slaves in the American South or the Roman Empire; southern planters and Roman citizens were able to pursue their own gentrified interests and curiosities while slaves did almost everything, including government administrative work.

Basically the future is one where robot labor empowers everyone to live like the Granthams in Downton Abbey -- spending all day putting on fancy clothes and going to parties -- because no physical labor demands their effort or attention.

And that will be the end of any reasonable functioning form of human endeavor. Humans need productivity and to seek human greatness. It's a part of our psyche to push ourselves to the limit and succeed. Thank God I won't be here to see such a sad state of affairs, and doubly so that I won't be a participant in that type of life. I can't imagine. Without challenges to meet, and only self-indulgence to pursue, we are little more than narcissistic children.

 

[US Conservative]

Gov'ts and govt programs fail. "Human Destiny" is not going to result from hundreds of millions of people dependent on the govt teat.

 

[eohrnberger]

And that will be the end of any reasonable functioning form of human endeavor. Humans need productivity and to seek human greatness. It's a part of our psyche to push ourselves to the limit and succeed. Thank God I won't be here to see such a sad state of affairs, and doubly so that I won't be a participant in that type of life. I can't imagine. Without challenges to meet, and only self-indulgence to pursue, we are little more than narcissistic children.

Yeah, that'll all work up until one of the robots needs an oil change or something more that the robots won't be able to do themselves.

And we'll have Idiocracy (2006) - IMDb or WALL·E (2008) - IMDb

On a more serious note, isn't this the same often run Sci-Fi future prediction?

On a more serious note, humanity would have to come up with new ways to keep itself occupied, and barring that, at least out of mischief, else the robot police force or personal robot servant would physically intercede and prevent it, wouldn't they? And lord help us all if the programmer of the robots wasn't a nice guy, or a control freak.

Wouldn't human simply die out for lack of challenges?

 

[lizzie]

Yeah, that'll all work up until one of the robots needs an oil change or something more that the robots won't be able to do themselves.

And we'll have Idiocracy (2006) - IMDb or WALL·E (2008) - IMDb

On a more serious note, isn't this the same often run Sci-Fi future prediction?

On a more serious note, humanity would have to come up with new ways to keep itself occupied, and barring that, at least out of mischief, else the robot police force or personal robot servant would physically intercede and prevent it, wouldn't they? And lord help us all if the programmer of the robots wasn't a nice guy, or a control freak.

Wouldn't human simply die out for lack of challenges?

I am inclined to think we would be more likely to kill each other off, than to die out passively. Futility seems to result in destructive behaviors.

 

[eohrnberger]

I am inclined to think we would be more likely to kill each other off, than to die out passively. Futility seems to result in destructive behaviors.

I'm sure that some would, and the robots would have to arrest them, and / or kill them off (depending on their programming - heck, may just hold an electronic digital court in the course of a few seconds to decide the human's fate).

But still, with lots of time on my hands, I think I'd go and do more courses, perhaps start designing space ships for humans (and their robot companions) to travel the stars. Well? Why not?

(Who am I kidding? I think I'd just be posting more stuff here at DP!) :mrgreen:

 

[US Conservative]

Time for Sparicus to come back, run around USA, defeating the police and running the slave masters out of USA>

They can live in China or Dubai justfine. Lots of slaves there.

Ironic.

 

[US Conservative]

I am inclined to think we would be more likely to kill each other off, than to die out passively. Futility seems to result in destructive behaviors.

Fighting over resources, natural or otherwise is as old as man, and always will be.

 

[274ina]

Gov'ts and govt programs fail. "Human Destiny" is not going to result from hundreds of millions of people dependent on the govt teat.

The bail out of investors speculation to the tune of $700 billion worked fine.

The Gov just now failed to bailout or force Corps topay for pensions. They will now let them fail and reduce payments ............after a life time of paying into them.

Funny how Gov works for the rich but not the poor.................snicker.

 

[blarg]

As the robotics industry develops it will create new jobs because the new robotic infrastructure will require a lot of human maintenance, but eventually technology will reach a point where this sort of oversight will be extremely minimal: basically a small department of government bureaucrats will be able to oversee the 99% self-repairing robot-run and operated labor economy.

Since this "basically" means all the work that humans had to do to survive, grow, and flourish throughout history is now being overseen by a semi-intelligent force that takes care of itself, isn't the gradual movement of the entire human population into a welfare state where no one has to work a normal part of human development?

Isn't the historical emergence of welfare states in the early 20th century just the normal beginning of a process that will come to an 100-200 years from now, when every human will receive a government-issued robot manservant at birth?

In essence robots are like slaves in the American South or the Roman Empire; southern planters and Roman citizens were able to pursue their own gentrified interests and curiosities while slaves did almost everything, including government administrative work.

Basically the future is one where robot labor empowers everyone to live like the Granthams in Downton Abbey -- spending all day putting on fancy clothes and going to parties -- because no physical labor demands their effort or attention.

maybe but were probably all ****ed if eventually no 1 can do anything but party

 

[blarg]

And that will be the end of any reasonable functioning form of human endeavor. Humans need productivity and to seek human greatness. It's a part of our psyche to push ourselves to the limit and succeed. Thank God I won't be here to see such a sad state of affairs, and doubly so that I won't be a participant in that type of life. I can't imagine. Without challenges to meet, and only self-indulgence to pursue, we are little more than narcissistic children.

some people might indulge in challenges though could have people develop useful skills as an anachronistic hobby or community that shun or partially do wihtout automatic labor

 

[US Conservative]

The bail out of investors speculation to the tune of $700 billion worked fine.

The Gov just now failed to bailout or force Corps topay for pensions. They will now let them fail and reduce payments ............after a life time of paying into them.

Funny how Gov works for the rich but not the poor.................snicker.

And yet instead of seeking to shrink govt and minimize its scope and therefore impact on every American, you seek to expand it thinking it will end in a utopian entity. What could go wrong?

 

[SocialDemocrat]

Robotic labor is not inevitable, so there's that.

 

[lizzie]

Fighting over resources, natural or otherwise is as old as man, and always will be.

That isn't what I am referring to, though.
It is the degradation of the human mind and sense of purpose.

 

[US Conservative]

That isn't what I am referring to, though.
It is the degradation of the human mind and sense of purpose.

Yup you are probably right.

 

[Cavil]

As the robotics industry develops it will create new jobs because the new robotic infrastructure will require a lot of human maintenance, but eventually technology will reach a point where this sort of oversight will be extremely minimal: basically a small department of government bureaucrats will be able to oversee the 99% self-repairing robot-run and operated labor economy.

Since this "basically" means all the work that humans had to do to survive, grow, and flourish throughout history is now being overseen by a semi-intelligent force that takes care of itself, isn't the gradual movement of the entire human population into a welfare state where no one has to work a normal part of human development?

Isn't the historical emergence of welfare states in the early 20th century just the normal beginning of a process that will come to an 100-200 years from now, when every human will receive a government-issued robot manservant at birth?

In essence robots are like slaves in the American South or the Roman Empire; southern planters and Roman citizens were able to pursue their own gentrified interests and curiosities while slaves did almost everything, including government administrative work.

Basically the future is one where robot labor empowers everyone to live like the Granthams in Downton Abbey -- spending all day putting on fancy clothes and going to parties -- because no physical labor demands their effort or attention.

scarcity will still be an issue. earth might have such things but if you don't have the resources on your mining ship to make drones to fix X problem, you're going to have to do it yourself. or perhaps control the robots that do it for you directly. perhaps you will be entirely digitized yourself and oversee a fleet of mining vessels. and there will be plenty of mining needed. as the bottom size for computer componets is met, you can only get bigger to have faster computation. there's a universe of stuff out there to turn towards computation but some force must direct it. also there is the element of surprise that really would be difficult for computer AIs to master. as humanity spreads through the stars it will be difficult for governments to exert control over it, and conflict with non-state actors and each other is enevitable. there will be trading and whatnot. but lets say we don't leave earth. some day within the next half century computers will start to be recognized as sentient beings in and of themselves, which means it would be slavery to keep them as your servant, which i doubt the robots will take kindly to

 

[Morality Games]

maybe but were probably all ****ed if eventually no 1 can do anything but party

"shrug" We'll still do stuff. Fashion, arts and entertainment, scholarship, athletics, etc. Just not physical labor.

 

[274ina]

And yet instead of seeking to shrink govt and minimize its scope and therefore impact on every American, you seek to expand it thinking it will end in a utopian entity. What could go wrong?

Well your Corps are nothing but utter failures.................... 1880 to 2008 RIP. With a little more life from the bailout.