Exclusive: Putin's demands for peace include an end to NATO enlargement, sources say

[Tigerace117]

I addressed every point you posted.



I didn't post anything at all about 1994.
I posted about 1991.
But you didn't say which organization monitored or observed the 1994 Crimean Elections. Any other Putin elections you would like to tell me how they were verified?



Just because you find fault with everything doesn't mean you can understand what everyone sees.

Which organization monitored or observed the elections you posted about?

Putin is not focused on self-determination. His demand is that Nato doesn't expand. Nato cannot stop the cause of self determination, so why is this a problem for Putin? The answer is that he is not concerned with self determination, he is conducting a war of conquest. Putin's legal counsel announced that the USSR had not been dissolved legally. Putin didn't contradict his legal counsel. Self-determination is a worthy and legitimate cause, but Putin doesn't want that. He wants these regions and Ukraine itself to return to Russia. Putin is exploiting the issue of self determination as an excuse to rebuild the USSR.

Let's talk about current events. Who is ordering a continued and intense bombing of civilians in Ukraine? Who won't stop the bombing? Who is the war criminal who wants the killing to continue.

The single man on Earth who could stop this war tomorrow is the same man who started it. This is Putin's war.

So you are just rambling into thin air instead of actually paying attention to what has been pointed out. You admitted that already.

No you didn’t. You waffled back and forth, made multiple mutually contradictory claims several times over, and then constantly asserted you weren’t talking about the point I brought up.

Who cares? You already admitted no outcome against the West’s wishes would be acceptable.

NATO has been actively trying to stop self determination in various places for decades, so that’s clearly not true.

Ah yes, the whole “you can’t have self determination” because then the commies win” line. The West has been pushing that one since 1918.

The US doesn’t care about bombing civilians, and your pretense it does is laughable.

 

[soap box]

So you are just rambling into thin air instead of actually paying attention to what has been pointed out. You admitted that already.

No you didn’t. You waffled back and forth, made multiple mutually contradictory claims several times over, and then constantly asserted you weren’t talking about the point I brought up.

Who cares? You already admitted no outcome against the West’s wishes would be acceptable.

NATO has been actively trying to stop self determination in various places for decades, so that’s clearly not true.

Ah yes, the whole “you can’t have self determination” because then the commies win” line. The West has been pushing that one since 1918.

The US doesn’t care about bombing civilians, and your pretense it does is laughable.

Putin is using self determination as an excuse, not as a priority.

Putin chose war because he can't control a real election.

This is not a defensive war and no one forced Putin to invade Ukraine.

Do you trust Putin?

 

[coyote505]

The useful idiot in Washington.

Isn't he the one who has done more to promote Canadian unity than anyone else in many years? Perhaps you folks should give Him an award.

 

[Juin]

Where, exactly, is there left to expand NATO to?

Any more Nato expansions will be into the moslem world; Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Azerbaijan...

 

[Tigerace117]

Putin is using self determination as an excuse, not as a priority.

Putin chose war because he can't control a real election.

This is not a defensive war and no one forced Putin to invade Ukraine.

Do you trust Putin?

The West has been vehement in its efforts to deny self determination to those it finds inconvenient.

As ignoring multiple elections saying the same thing show.

The US and NATO have invaded far more countries than he has over the last few decades

 

[Allan]

Isn't he the one who has done more to promote Canadian unity than anyone else in many years? Perhaps you folks should give Him an award.

A Taco Bell gift card.

 

[Juin]

Putin is using self determination as an excuse, not as a priority.

That is the way it usually is. History does heap praises on the French for lending a hand in the glorious secession of the thirteen obscure colonies; the actual reasons King Louis XVI lent a hand were far less honourable: the King of the French was simply avenging himself of losed to the English in other theaters

Putin chose war because he can't control a real election.

You place far too much value on elections

 

[Perotista]

MOSCOW, May 28 (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin's conditions for ending the war in Ukraine include a demand that Western leaders pledge in writing to stop enlarging NATO eastwards and lift a chunk of sanctions on Russia, according to three Russian sources with knowledge of the negotiations. ...The three Russian sources said Putin wants a "written" pledge by major Western powers not to enlarge the U.S.-led NATO alliance eastwards - shorthand for formally ruling out membership to Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova and other former Soviet republics.

Russia also wants Ukraine to be neutral, some Western sanctions lifted, a resolution of the issue of frozen Russian sovereign assets in the West, and protection for Russian speakers in Ukraine, the three sources said.

The first source said that, if Putin realizes he is unable to reach a peace deal on his own terms, he will seek to show the Ukrainians and the Europeans by military victories that "peace tomorrow will be even more painful".

Link

This, of course, is what he has been saying all along. Nothing new here.

Ironically, his invasion of Ukraine has made it imperative that other countries join NATO.

His threat makes it clear we are going to have to bolster Ukraine in order to drive Russia from their country. Peace is impossible without it. Capitulation only emboldens an aggressor.

How quickly everyone forgets the G.H.W. Bush and Gorbachev agreement for a peaceful unification of Germany that NATO wouldn’t expand further east. That a unified Germany would be part of NATO.

 

[Juin]

What in the NATO charter is a threat to Russian sovereignty? NATO is a defensive alliance and invading a sovereign nation is prohibited by the charter.

A military alliance, any military alliance is a threat by definition

 

[Juin]

Yet that is exactly what Putin did in the occupied territories of Ukraine. They adopted Stalin's constitution and fly the hammer and sickle flag there.

Russian Soldiers Raising Soviet Flag Over Occupied Ukraine Cities​

Russian soldiers have begun raising Soviet-era flags in recently occupied areas of Ukraine. On April 19 in the southern city of Kherson, troops from a Rosgvardia police unit hoisted the red "banner of victory" up the main flagpole in the city's "Alley of Glory," a park dedicated to the memory of locals who fought in the Red Army during the Second World War.

In the runup to Vladimir Putin's February 24 invasion of Ukraine, Russian domestic media frequently made light of Western claims that the Russian president was seeking to reestablish the Soviet Union. However, when the "banner of victory" was raised in Kherson, Kremlin-controlled television channels were quick to praise the development.

A plain red banner with the hammer and scycle is the Flag of the Soviet Union. When it has inscriptions on it it is the Victory Banner. It may be one and the same thing to you, Russians know the difference.

 

[Juin]

Let me check the OP. Third riech, US, Okinawa, ?

Putin only wants to stop NATO because he's a warmonger with delusions of restoring the Soviet Union. If he was not on a campaign of conquest, Putin would not fear NATO. But he wants to make demands, so that he can continue his lust for power. And obviously, from his demand we can see that NATO is in the way of his dreams.

Is Nato not the most puissant military alliance on planet and an enemy of Russia? Why would any Russian- Putin or oher- want a powerful hostile military alliance creeping up on Russia?

 

[Juin]

Why is Putin concerned about NATO. Why is Putin making this demand? If he doesn't attack first, no one attacks Russia. He is concerned about NATO because he intended to continue his war of conquest. Otherwise he wouldn't care one bit about NATO. NATO is still around for people like him who chose war because that's natural to that individual.

Nato is the most powerful military alliance on planet earth, as well as a dedicated enemy of Russia. Putin would be remiss in his duties as President of Russia if the approach of a super Russophobic military to Russia did not raise concerns in him

The Helsinki Commission monitored the independence Referendum in December 1991. Putin could order a strict ceasefire. He could send envoys to the EU and other international organizations. He could allow outsiders to observe and document the conduct of the voting. Putin could prove through the voice of the separatists that independence is rightful for all ethnic Russians.

Where was the Helsinki Commission in 2014 when a coup overthrew the President? And what did the west do after the coup? They did not denounce the coup [lending credence to accusations they engineered it]. They did not call for restoration of the overthrown President. They quickly midwifed a radical Russophobic regime that led to the conflict

 

[Juin]

Until the invasion of Ukraine, NATO hasn't threatened Russia since the end of the Cold War.

Exactly the same way the Soviet Union placing nukes in Cuba was considered by the US a threat. Of course if Castro and the Russians were querried at the time they would have correctly pointed out that the US had nothing to fear if the US did not attack Cuba. Clearly what was neither enough nor reassuring. The nukes were a threat in themselves, whether the Cubans intended to use them or not

 

[Juin]

Do you think NATO would invade Russia before a conflict had started?

Why not? Has Nato not attacked Serbia, Libya, Afghanistan?

Do you trust Putin?

Nations have interests. That is what it boils down to.

Attacking first is what Putin did. The Red Cross and Human Rights Watch put the number of civilian casualties at 600 and I deplore the aerial bombings in 1999. As much as I hate that NATO intervened in that war, that doesn't mean NATO would bomb Russia or invade them in this one.

The question to you was: what stops Nato from attacking first, for whatever reason? When, how or why Nato attacks is an internal Nato matter. What is a Russian matter is that Nato can attack, and is powerful enough to destroy Russia. And that is not something unique to Russia. The US itself objected to Soviet nukes in Cuba. It didnt matter whether the Cubans were only going to use them if attacked by the US. The mere presence of Soviet nukes, for whatever reasons, was unacceptable

What's the point?

Russia is supposed not to be trusted not to attack; what are the records of US, UK, Spain, Portugal France since WWII?

Because the EU has higher standards. I'm seriously glad you reminded me that I would trust a delegation from Japan, India, Mexico, any international organization I'm aware of, and I would trust them 37 times more than Putin.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. This tragic conflict started because the west failed to live up to the standards you expect of them. The west engineered the overthrow of the then President of Ukraine because he was not as pro west as they liked. That President happened to be of Russian ethnicity, which meant Ukrainian minorities of Russian ethnicity saw their worst fears come true. The west will rather uphold a coup than allow Yanukovych to be President

 

[soap box]

The West has been vehement in its efforts to deny self determination to those it finds inconvenient.

The West cannot possibly commit an act that makes Putin innocent. Putin is guilty of his crimes, he's not guilty of the crimes of the West. The West isn't guilty of Putin's crimes.

As ignoring multiple elections saying the same thing show.

Elections 30 years ago are certainly historical. Why won't Putin call for an new referendum? Why won't Putin stop this war? Not even a * ceasefire.

If Putin is interested in self determination, why are his demands and priorities about NATO?
He suggests Russia would be attacked the very same day he attacks civilians.
Who can't stop? Who is still bombing and attacking yesterday and today? How many Russians have died since 2022? How many civilians have died in Putins war so far?

The US and NATO have invaded far more countries than he has over the last few decades

The US and NATO cannot possibly make Putin innocent of anything. Putin committed his crimes. The US and NATO committed their crimes. No matter what the US and NATO did, Putin invaded Ukraine in a war of conquest.

Bombing and destruction, with increasing frequency and rising civilian casualties has happened far west of the Eastern Oblasts. Why bomb civilians and continue attacking with last ditch live bodies diving into the grinder and then demand that NATO should stay out of his way.

Putin attacks and then he demands that NATO won't stop him. He wouldn't care about NATO unless he plans to attack other countries.

You didn't answer

Do you trust Putin?

But also,

Do you trust Putin to not invade another country? If this war is ever settled, do you trust he won't invade another?

 

[iguanaman]

A military alliance, any military alliance is a threat by definition

NATO is a threat only to a colonialist madman who thinks he can bring back the USSR. Putin doesn't want any country to be protected from his invasions by NATO.

 

[iguanaman]

A plain red banner with the hammer and scycle is the Flag of the Soviet Union. When it has inscriptions on it it is the Victory Banner. It may be one and the same thing to you, Russians know the difference.

Precisely....the Russians are bringing the Soviet Union back in Ukraine. It is like bringing swastika flags back to Paris. It is horrifying and ludicrous at the same time.

 

[soap box]

That is the way it usually is. History does heap praises on the French for lending a hand in the glorious secession of the thirteen obscure colonies; the actual reasons King Louis XVI lent a hand were far less honourable: the King of the French was simply avenging himself of losed to the English in other theaters

You place far too much value on elections

Is Nato not the most puissant military alliance on planet and an enemy of Russia? Why would any Russian- Putin or oher- want a powerful hostile military alliance creeping up on Russia?

Nato is the most powerful military alliance on planet earth, as well as a dedicated enemy of Russia. Putin would be remiss in his duties as President of Russia if the approach of a super Russophobic military to Russia did not raise concerns in him






Where was the Helsinki Commission in 2014 when a coup overthrew the President? And what did the west do after the coup? They did not denounce the coup [lending credence to accusations they engineered it]. They did not call for restoration of the overthrown President. They quickly midwifed a radical Russophobic regime that led to the conflict

Why not? Has Nato not attacked Serbia, Libya, Afghanistan?





Nations have interests. That is what it boils down to.





The question to you was: what stops Nato from attacking first, for whatever reason? When, how or why Nato attacks is an internal Nato matter. What is a Russian matter is that Nato can attack, and is powerful enough to destroy Russia. And that is not something unique to Russia. The US itself objected to Soviet nukes in Cuba. It didnt matter whether the Cubans were only going to use them if attacked by the US. The mere presence of Soviet nukes, for whatever reasons, was unacceptable





Russia is supposed not to be trusted not to attack; what are the records of US, UK, Spain, Portugal France since WWII?






The proof of the pudding is in the eating. This tragic conflict started because the west failed to live up to the standards you expect of them. The west engineered the overthrow of the then President of Ukraine because he was not as pro west as they liked. That President happened to be of Russian ethnicity, which meant Ukrainian minorities of Russian ethnicity saw their worst fears come true. The west will rather uphold a coup than allow Yanukovych to be President

Since Putin has invaded and attacked Ukraine, why would I trust him to stop after this war? Will he invade another country? Would you believe him if he promised to not invade any other country? Do you trust Putin?

In current events, Putin continues ordering strikes.and attacks on Ukraine, and on the same day he demands that NATO gets out of his way. For more strikes and attacks.

You're posting that NATO could or would attack Russia, and that the West forced Putin to invade Ukraine for the survival of the separatists and ethnic Russians???

No. The casualties on both sides show us what happened since February 2022.

If NATO attacks anything inside Russian borders- head for the shelter. I don't think it will happen. I don't think NATO has any influence and you might be complaining about a NATO that doesn't really matter now. The new alliance in formation now is making their own rules regarding aide for Ukraine. I'm not sure NATO will be important if this ever ends. I'm not sure NATO will survive the current administration. So complain all you like about NATO and Putin still invaded Ukraine.

Putin's legal counsel announced publicly that the USSR wasn't legally dissolved. Putin knew this was announced. This is an excuse for invasions of conquest.

Putin only opposes NATO because he is planning more invasions.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Putin only opposes NATO because he is planning more invasions.

Bingo

 

[Tigerace117]

The West cannot possibly commit an act that makes Putin innocent. Putin is guilty of his crimes, he's not guilty of the crimes of the West. The West isn't guilty of Putin's crimes.


Elections 30 years ago are certainly historical. Why won't Putin call for an new referendum? Why won't Putin stop this war? Not even a * ceasefire.

If Putin is interested in self determination, why are his demands and priorities about NATO?
He suggests Russia would be attacked the very same day he attacks civilians.
Who can't stop? Who is still bombing and attacking yesterday and today? How many Russians have died since 2022? How many civilians have died in Putins war so far?




The US and NATO cannot possibly make Putin innocent of anything. Putin committed his crimes. The US and NATO committed their crimes. No matter what the US and NATO did, Putin invaded Ukraine in a war of conquest.

Bombing and destruction, with increasing frequency and rising civilian casualties has happened far west of the Eastern Oblasts. Why bomb civilians and continue attacking with last ditch live bodies diving into the grinder and then demand that NATO should stay out of his way.

Putin attacks and then he demands that NATO won't stop him. He wouldn't care about NATO unless he plans to attack other countries.

You didn't answer

Do you trust Putin?

But also,

Do you trust Putin to not invade another country? If this war is ever settled, do you trust he won't invade another?

Not only has the West invaded more countries than Putin over the last twenty years, it’s not particularly close.

The West’s “Coalition of the Willing” has killed significantly more civilians than Putin, actually.

There was another election a few decades later that produced the exact same result. You flailed and wailed “but Putin” rather than face up to that.

Because NATO is an aggressive, militaristic alliance which repeatedly attempts to deny other countries self determination.

Gee dude, there was never any obligation to only fight in the Eastern oblasts in the first place once Ukraine decided to react to those oblasts’ attempt at self determination with military force. Your claim is the equivalent of saying the North should have only been able to fight in West Virginia during the Civil War.

You keep demanding others trust those far worse than Putin.

 

[Tigerace117]

NATO is a threat only to a colonialist madman who thinks he can bring back the USSR. Putin doesn't want any country to be protected from his invasions by NATO.

Tell that to the vast numbers of innocent civilians killed as a result of NATO’s actions over the last few decades.

 

[soap box]

Not only has the West invaded more countries than Putin over the last twenty years, it’s not particularly close.

That does not absolve Putin of anything.

The West’s “Coalition of the Willing” has killed significantly more civilians than Putin, actually.

Show me the numbers.

There was another election a few decades later that produced the exact same result. You flailed and wailed “but Putin” rather than face up to that.

You can't say who monitored the election.

Because NATO is an aggressive, militaristic alliance which repeatedly attempts to deny other countries self determination.

Propaganda exaggeration.

Gee dude, there was never any obligation to only fight in the Eastern oblasts in the first place once Ukraine decided to react to those oblasts’ attempt at self determination with military force. Your claim is the equivalent of saying the North should have only been able to fight in West Virginia during the Civil War.

You keep demanding others trust those far worse than Putin.

Putin only opposes NATO because he is planning more invasions.

I'm only responding to your reply about this question:

Do you trust Putin to not invade another country? If this war is ever settled, do you trust he won't invade another?

 

[Tigerace117]

That does not absolve Putin of anything.


Show me the numbers.



You can't say who monitored the election.


Propaganda exaggeration.


Putin only opposes NATO because he is planning more invasions.

I'm only responding to your reply about this question:

Do you trust Putin to not invade another country? If this war is ever settled, do you trust he won't invade another?

You claimed the West hadn’t done what Putin had, an assertion which is simply a falsehood.

Why, so you can refuse to acknowledge them again?

You already admitted said monitoring is meaningless as you wouldn’t accept the result regardless.

Nope, fact.

NATO’s forces have invaded far more countries than Putin. Why should anyone trust NATO, given the criteria listed

 

[soap box]

You claimed the West hadn’t done what Putin had, an assertion which is simply a falsehood.

Why, so you can refuse to acknowledge them again?

You already admitted said monitoring is meaningless as you wouldn’t accept the result regardless.

Nope, fact.

NATO’s forces have invaded far more countries than Putin. Why should anyone trust NATO, given the criteria listed

You haven't understood any of my posts.

Do you trust Putin to not invade another country? If this war is ever settled, do you trust he won't invade another?

 

[j brown's body]

You claimed the West hadn’t done what Putin had, an assertion which is simply a falsehood.

Why, so you can refuse to acknowledge them again?

You already admitted said monitoring is meaningless as you wouldn’t accept the result regardless.

Nope, fact.

NATO’s forces have invaded far more countries than Putin. Why should anyone trust NATO, given the criteria listed

Are you arguing that Putin is as bad as the west without criticizing him again?