Every american has a dept $82000

[Thazgor]

Whoa!!

So who's fault is this and how to solve it?

 

[OrphanSlug]

Citation please? (Not saying you are wrong, but how debt is reported tends to range these numbers.)

And why are you in the US State and Local area of the forums if you are asking about a national issue?

 

[Emily L]

Looks like I'll have to go ahead and file for bankruptcy.

 

[longview]

Citation please? (Not saying you are wrong, but how debt is reported tends to range these numbers.)

And why are you in the US State and Local area of the forums if you are asking about a national issue?

Let's see the debt is $27 trillion, that 27 X 10^12, the population is 328 million, 328 X 10^6.
27 X 10^12/328 X10^6=$82,317 per person, no citation needed.
Are you questioning the amount of the bonds issued, or the population?

 

[Rogue Valley]

The GOP hasn't cared about debt and deficit since 2016.

Why the concern now? (rhetorical question)

 

[longview]

Whoa!!

So who's fault is this and how to solve it?

The fault is our government spending more than they take in.
The solution could be as simple as ending base line budgeting, and limiting the government spending to the income.
If they balanced the budget every year (really balanced the budget), the debt will naturally mature and be paid off
in about 20 years.
If we keep going as we have been, at some point servicing the debt would consume all of the budget,
Like only making enough, to make the minimum payments on your credit cards.
The US federal government has averaged an 8% raise, every year, for over 200 years,
and they spend like that raise will always be coming in, and then some!
What we need are politicians who hang onto each dollar, as if they earned it themselves.
It is far too easy for the government to spend Other Peoples Money.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Let's see the debt is $27 trillion, that 27 X 10^12, the population is 328 million, 328 X 10^6.
27 X 10^12/328 X10^6=$82,317 per person, no citation needed.
Are you questioning the amount of the bonds issued, or the population?

I had a feeling this is what we were going to talk about... again.

Taking the US Federal Total Debt and dividing it by the population is not a very good statistic and it tends to put the wrong ideas out there, resulting in more bumper sticker rhetoric absent much else. It is both wrong and entirely irresponsible to tell every American they are holding that part of the Federal Total Debt as literally their own responsibility to pay back.

And again I have to note for the record how sad it is that "conservatives" are all of a sudden concerned about deficits and debt, but were entirely silent when President OrangeGlow and a complicit Republican Congress passed tax cuts that literally took our deficits and pointed them the wrong direction *at the very point* that the lot of them told us the economy was "great."

First off, the US Federal Total Debt is a measurement of how much the government owes its creditors, with some percentage breakdown between Debt held by the Public, Intergovernmental Debt, and Debt held by the Fed (usually added to the Debt held by the Public part.) No single tax payer is personally on the hook for some percentage of that debt, the Federal government is. In fact the public is one of the beneficiaries of that debt in the form of the bonds held that will one day mature. We are neither "spending our kid's money" nor robbing someone, we are in fact creating investment vehicles any holder of that debt will enjoy including what is passed to our kids.

Second off, the US Federal Government is not a household. All modern economic models based on Fiat Money Systems have the order of operations being spend, then tax, with the remainder being debt issued that still has demand. The valuation of that debt goes up and down but there is still market demand for that debt and the US dollar competes against an international basket of currencies. Not doing all that bad either.

Immediately calling to lower the debt, or start talking about "who is at fault," all purposefully avoids the economics of the discussion. While you guys complain about which side of the isle is most responsible the rest of us are talking about the economic reasoning behind when we have deficits, how much is added to debt, and why.

Let me know when you are ready to graduate elementary school and start talking about the real issue.

Otherwise, stay in bumper sticker level thinking world and entirely miss the point. Again.

 

[Drawdown]

Whoa!!

So who's fault is this and how to solve it?

That's your grandchild's debt, not yours, Let's spend some more while we still have room on the credit card.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Under Donald Trump...

Federal debt at a historical high
Federal deficit at a historical high
Trade deficit at a historical high
Economic inequality at a historical high

 

[longview]

I had a feeling this is what we were going to talk about... again.

Taking the US Federal Total Debt and dividing it by the population is not a very good statistic and it tends to put the wrong ideas out there, resulting in more bumper sticker rhetoric absent much else. It is both wrong and entirely irresponsible to tell every American they are holding that part of the Federal Total Debt as literally their own responsibility to pay back.

And again I have to note for the record how sad it is that "conservatives" are all of a sudden concerned about deficits and debt, but were entirely silent when President OrangeGlow and a complicit Republican Congress passed tax cuts that literally took our deficits and pointed them the wrong direction *at the very point* that the lot of them told us the economy was "great."

First off, the US Federal Total Debt is a measurement of how much the government owes its creditors, with some percentage breakdown between Debt held by the Public, Intergovernmental Debt, and Debt held by the Fed (usually added to the Debt held by the Public part.) No single tax payer is personally on the hook for some percentage of that debt, the Federal government is. In fact the public is one of the beneficiaries of that debt in the form of the bonds held that will one day mature. We are neither "spending our kid's money" nor robbing someone, we are in fact creating investment vehicles any holder of that debt will enjoy including what is passed to our kids.

Second off, the US Federal Government is not a household. All modern economic models based on Fiat Money Systems have the order of operations being spend, then tax, with the remainder being debt issued that still has demand. The valuation of that debt goes up and down but there is still market demand for that debt and the US dollar competes against an international basket of currencies. Not doing all that bad either.

Immediately calling to lower the debt, or start talking about "who is at fault," all purposefully avoids the economics of the discussion. While you guys complain about which side of the isle is most responsible the rest of us are talking about the economic reasoning behind when we have deficits, how much is added to debt, and why.

Let me know when you are ready to graduate elementary school and start talking about the real issue.

Otherwise, stay in bumper sticker level thinking world and entirely miss the point. Again.

It is still the amount that We the People owe. In addition our Government will always service the debt,
before anything else is paid.
To be fair our income to debt ratio is not terrible, but at some point our Government will need to
slow down on the spending, as we are not growing like we were in the 1960's.
I wonder how much of that debt is held by Social Security, which can only buy "special" federal bonds.

 

[Mr Person]

Whoa!!

So who's fault is this and how to solve it?

It's your fault, Thazgor. Why did you do this to us?

 

[Mr Person]

The fault is our government spending more than they take in.
The solution could be as simple as ending base line budgeting, and limiting the government spending to the income.
If they balanced the budget every year (really balanced the budget), the debt will naturally mature and be paid off
in about 20 years.
If we keep going as we have been, at some point servicing the debt would consume all of the budget,
Like only making enough, to make the minimum payments on your credit cards.
The US federal government has averaged an 8% raise, every year, for over 200 years,
and they spend like that raise will always be coming in, and then some!
What we need are politicians who hang onto each dollar, as if they earned it themselves.
It is far too easy for the government to spend Other Peoples Money.

Requiring balanced budgets federally is stupid as all hell. You either would make any disaster immensely worse by not being able to borrow to pay for what needs to be done, OR you make it immensely worse by having to shock the everliving shit out of the economy with a massive tax increase.

What we need to do is incrementally raise taxes across the board until we're paying for what we spend. Then, if the pain is too much, maybe the parties can agree on justifiable spending cuts. But really, the problem is that our taxes are way lower than where they should be.

You can thank the GOP supply-side tax policy lie, but given your lean I bet you won't because you might just believe that swill. To whatever limited extent the Laffer Curve is viable, we're way way past the point where slashing rates can grow the economy enough to increase revenue. Every time one of your candidates does it, deficits explode.

Bush was handed a surplus, turned it into 400ish billion yearly deficits.
Obama was handed a 1.4 trillion deficit, turned it into 550ish billion deficits.
Trump was handed a 550ish billion deficit, and promptly turned it into a 1+ trillion yearly deficit.
Trump will be handing Biden a 3.1+ trillion dollar deficit for his first calendar year, given how the fiscal year works.





tl;dr All those words are not a picture of the GOP being correct on tax policy. They are a picture of the GOP being abysmally wrong and dishonest, all at your childrens' expense.

The real question is why GOP voters are so happy to keep voting for people who will hand them a few more bucks at their childrens' and grandchildrens' expense. I can't imagine borrowing against my child's future like that.

 

[OrphanSlug]

It is still the amount that We the People owe. In addition our Government will always service the debt,
before anything else is paid.
To be fair our income to debt ratio is not terrible, but at some point our Government will need to
slow down on the spending, as we are not growing like we were in the 1960's.
I wonder how much of that debt is held by Social Security, which can only buy "special" federal bonds.

Spare us the rhetoric. When the Federal Government buys a tank you are not personally writing a check to General Dynamics Land Systems, and very similarly when the Federal Government pays out on a matured Bond you are not personally writing the check to that bond holder either. Again, the US Federal Total Debt is a measurement of how much the government owes its creditors. It is not what you personally owe. Servicing the debt is part of the equation and is a line item in the budget just as all other line items, plenty of those line items have priority all as a matter of law.

And no, taxation and spending policy should be about where we are in the economic cycle.

As for Social Security and all other Government ran Trust Funds, I find it equally amazing how few know how that really works. Including the laws behind these "special" bonds.

 

[Juks]

Found this link

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

 

[skeptic llc]

Looks like I'll have to go ahead and file for bankruptcy.

Sorry, the bankruptcy courts are all full, I guess Trump started a bunch of new businesses a few weeks ago or something.

 

[longview]

Requiring balanced budgets federally is stupid as all hell. You either would make any disaster immensely worse by not being able to borrow to pay for what needs to be done, OR you make it immensely worse by having to shock the everliving shit out of the economy with a massive tax increase.

What we need to do is incrementally raise taxes across the board until we're paying for what we spend. Then, if the pain is too much, maybe the parties can agree on justifiable spending cuts. But really, the problem is that our taxes are way lower than where they should be.

You can thank the GOP supply-side tax policy lie, but given your lean I bet you won't because you might just believe that swill. To whatever limited extent the Laffer Curve is viable, we're way way past the point where slashing rates can grow the economy enough to increase revenue. Every time one of your candidates does it, deficits explode.

Bush was handed a surplus, turned it into 400ish billion yearly deficits.
Obama was handed a 1.4 trillion deficit, turned it into 550ish billion deficits.
Trump was handed a 550ish billion deficit, and promptly turned it into a 1+ trillion yearly deficit.
Trump will be handing Biden a 3.1+ trillion dollar deficit for his first calendar year, given how the fiscal year works.





tl;dr All those words are not a picture of the GOP being correct on tax policy. They are a picture of the GOP being abysmally wrong and dishonest, all at your childrens' expense.

The real question is why GOP voters are so happy to keep voting for people who will hand them a few more bucks at their childrens' and grandchildrens' expense. I can't imagine borrowing against my child's future like that.

The problem is the willingness of congress to keep spending beyond their means,
and to do their planning as if the 8% annual raise the federal Government has seen for 200 plus years, will always come in.

 

[Thazgor]

It's your fault, Thazgor. Why did you do this to us?

It can't be me, im not registred as a american citizens dosen't pay taxes in America

 

[longview]

Spare us the rhetoric. When the Federal Government buys a tank you are not personally writing a check to General Dynamics Land Systems, and very similarly when the Federal Government pays out on a matured Bond you are not personally writing the check to that bond holder either. Again, the US Federal Total Debt is a measurement of how much the government owes its creditors. It is not what you personally owe. Servicing the debt is part of the equation and is a line item in the budget just as all other line items, plenty of those line items have priority all as a matter of law.

And no, taxation and spending policy should be about where we are in the economic cycle.

As for Social Security and all other Government ran Trust Funds, I find it equally amazing how few know how that really works. Including the laws behind these "special" bonds.

The reality is that the Federal budget is more like a household budget than most would admit.
Their ability to borrow new money, (issue bonds), at low interest rates, is only based on the faith
that people and countries have, that we will honor those bonds.
If the Government misses a single quarterly bond payment, that faith would be severely compromised.
Like a household with questionable credit. They will still be able to borrow money, but only at higher interest rates.
Each year we spend beyond what we make, the minimum payment increases.
The estimated interest on the Federal debt for 2020 is $576. billion.
This is evaluated against an estimated income of $2,739, billion,
So it is like a household that brings home $4000 a month, but has mortgage interest and credit card interest
totaling $840 a month, everything is fine, as long as the good credit rating is maintained, and the household stops
spending more than they bring in.

 

[OrphanSlug]

The problem is the willingness of congress to keep spending beyond their means,

Close, the problem is taxation and spending policy absent economic reasoning.

 

[longview]

Close, the problem is taxation and spending policy absent economic reasoning.

That is a good summation, I would say the Government need to live within their means, but the same basic idea.

 

[OrphanSlug]

The reality is that the Federal budget is more like a household budget than most would admit.
Their ability to borrow new money, (issue bonds), at low interest rates, is only based on the faith
that people and countries have, that we will honor those bonds.
If the Government misses a single quarterly bond payment, that faith would be severely compromised.
Like a household with questionable credit. They will still be able to borrow money, but only at higher interest rates.
Each year we spend beyond what we make, the minimum payment increases.
The estimated interest on the Federal debt for 2020 is $576. billion.
This is evaluated against an estimated income of $2,739, billion,
So it is like a household that brings home $4000 a month, but has mortgage interest and credit card interest
totaling $840 a month, everything is fine, as long as the good credit rating is maintained, and the household stops
spending more than they bring in.

Almost nothing you have said is factual.

The Federal Budget has no association to a household, and the Federal Government has influence over both its own currency and the cost of debt. The "ability to borrow money" is not what is happening either. Federal spending is a participant in the economy, the only one that can fluctuate opposite where we are in the economic cycle. Similar story with taxation but in reverse, taxation is removing money from the economy which should also fluctuate based on where we are in the economic cycle.

The government's budget, planning, capabilities, and even participation it the economy is not like a household in any regard.

The only part of that you accidentally got right was the "faith" part, all Fiat Money Systems are based on currency backed by a government with "value" determined by competition against the basket of international currencies.

Interest on Debt is a budget line item, already accounted for year to year. Again having influence into both the amount of currency out there and the interest rate for debt has profound impacts afforded to the government that a household never gets.

 

[OrphanSlug]

That is a good summation, I would say the Government need to live within their means, but the same basic idea.

No, I would say the government needs to go with tax and spending policy that represents the economic need at the time.

 

[longview]

Almost nothing you have said is factual.

The Federal Budget has no association to a household, and the Federal Government has influence over both its own currency and the cost of debt. The "ability to borrow money" is not what is happening either. Federal spending is a participant in the economy, the only one that can fluctuate opposite where we are in the economic cycle. Similar story with taxation but in reverse, taxation is removing money from the economy which should also fluctuate based on where we are in the economic cycle.

The government's budget, planning, capabilities, and even participation it the economy is not like a household in any regard.

The only part of that you accidentally got right was the "faith" part, all Fiat Money Systems are based on currency backed by a government with "value" determined by competition against the basket of international currencies.

Interest on Debt is a budget line item, already accounted for year to year. Again having influence into both the amount of currency out there and the interest rate for debt has profound impacts afforded to the government that a household never gets.

Our money only has the value people think it does, our credit, and our ability to borrow additional unsecured funds,
is also just as good as people think it is. It is the perception that funds invested in US bonds are safe, and will safely mature,
that justifies the low interest rates.
Anything that compromises that perception, would force our new borrowed funds into higher interest levels.
This would be unsustainable at our current deficit levels, and the interest on the federal debt line item, would quickly
grow to consume all available funds.

 

[longview]

No, I would say the government needs to go with tax and spending policy that represents the economic need at the time.

Fair enough, as long as we stick with needs, not wants!

 

[ttwtt78640]

Whoa!!

So who's fault is this and how to solve it?

That is simply nonsense - akin to saying that every American (resident or citizen) has an equal (dollar amount of) tax obligation to the federal government (or US treasury).