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Even if he is a criminal, so what?

Cardinal

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Earlier today, it was my position that impeachment should be brought against Trump even with the full knowledge that Senate Republicans wouldn't vote to convict and remove him from office. My argument was that it would put Republicans on the record showing that they don't care that the President is a criminal. I also argued that, essentially, not drafting articles of impeachment for that reason would be its own statement on our nation's values, and that that statement would be quite bad.

Well, perhaps two Republican Senators were reading my posts and thought, "Hey, why make Cardinal wait for impeachment before it gets to that? Let's go there now."

Hatch dismisses allegations of Trump crimes over hush money. Asked if he had any concerns, Hatch said: “The Democrats will do anything to hurt this president.” Told it was alleged by SDNY, Hatch told me: “Okay but I don’t care; all I can say is he’s doing a good job as President”

Hatch added this when asked if he was concerned about allegations. “No because I don’t think he was involved in crimes but even then, you know, you can make anything a crime under the current laws; if you want to you can blow it way out of proportion you can do a lot of things.”

Hatch also told me: “President Trump before he became president that’s another world. Since he’s become president this economy has charged ahead. ... And I think we ought to judge him on that basis other than trying to drum up things from the past that may or may not be true.”

Grassley, the Senate Judiciary chairman, similarly dismisses the federal prosecutors’ argument: “They based it on what a liar says, so it hurts the credibility of it.”

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1072244175544963073

At this point it's not a significant step to go from saying, "I don't care if he committed Federal Crimes because look at the economy" to "I don't care if he illegally conspired with a hostile foreign state because look at [insert Conservative goal here]."

The fact that we've already reached the point that Republican Senators are comfortable going on the record stating that rule of law is irrelevant represents the most recent and dramatic deterioration in the foundation of our Democracy. As bad as the nation's dialogue is (not least to say the quality of dialogue here on DP right now), what follows once our debates have shifted from arguing that crimes happened to arguing why crime is bad? If this kind of nihilism is successful in shaping the country's narrative, I won't be very optimistic about what happens next.
 

Amelia

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Hatch is only an echo of the man he used to be.
 

azgreg

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Orrin Hatch on Donald Trump directing Michael Cohen to commit a federal crime: “I don’t care.”

Orrin Hatch on Bill Clinton lying under oath about having sex with Monica Lewinsky: “Perjury and obstruct justice ... rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.”

The modern GOP in a nutshell.
 

JoanDavis

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Earlier today, it was my position that impeachment should be brought against Trump even with the full knowledge that Senate Republicans wouldn't vote to convict and remove him from office. My argument was that it would put Republicans on the record showing that they don't care that the President is a criminal. I also argued that, essentially, not drafting articles of impeachment for that reason would be its own statement on our nation's values, and that that statement would be quite bad.

Well, perhaps two Republican Senators were reading my posts and thought, "Hey, why make Cardinal wait for impeachment before it gets to that? Let's go there now."



https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1072244175544963073

At this point it's not a significant step to go from saying, "I don't care if he committed Federal Crimes because look at the economy" to "I don't care if he illegally conspired with a hostile foreign state because look at [insert Conservative goal here]."

The fact that we've already reached the point that Republican Senators are comfortable going on the record stating that rule of law is irrelevant represents the most recent and dramatic deterioration in the foundation of our Democracy. As bad as the nation's dialogue is (not least to say the quality of dialogue here on DP right now), what follows once our debates have shifted from arguing that crimes happened to arguing why crime is bad? If this kind of nihilism is successful in shaping the country's narrative, I won't be very optimistic about what happens next.

Funny. When Clinton was President, the republicans were hell bent on impeaching him - even though the economy was very strong at the time.

And the majority of Americans didn't care about his adultery claiming that was between him and Hillary. All Americans cared about was having a job and the economy was strong.

But the republicans had other ideas. They thought Clinton's lies and adultery were impeachable offences and they wasted MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS investigating and pursuing this.

Now we have a liar and an adulterer who allegedly committed federal crimes - and the republicans are just dismissing it all because the economy is doing well.

More proof that the republicans are putting trump before the country. In their world, trump is above the law - something the founding fathers never would have allowed.
 

Mr Person

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UTTER SCUM:

"you can make anything a crime under the current laws"

Which is why the GOP is feverishly working to shrink the federal criminal code?

Which is why as azgreg points out, Hatch said something completely opposite when politically convenient? (Gee I wonder what he said about Hillary).




Few things are more bitter than being lectured on morality by people like Orrin ****ing Hatch.This is emblematic of so much of what I've been saying ever since Obama started looking like he might have a chance back in 2007....
 

Cardinal

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Orrin Hatch on Donald Trump directing Michael Cohen to commit a federal crime: “I don’t care.”

Orrin Hatch on Bill Clinton lying under oath about having sex with Monica Lewinsky: “Perjury and obstruct justice ... rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.”

The modern GOP in a nutshell.

One conservative poster here lashed out, barely apropos of the post he was responding to, "You guys owe us Hillary's head on a pike." I think that pretty much says it all. They failed to impeach Bill, and when they failed to get Hillary thrown in jail I think that completed the long process of losing their minds. They're willing to end the American experiment altogether because they didn't get to destroy the Clintons in the way they always imagined they would.
 

Cardinal

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Hatch is only an echo of the man he used to be.

Grassley at the start of the Trump Administration still contained the semblance of principle. That man is gone.
 

Risky Thicket

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Earlier today, it was my position that impeachment should be brought against Trump even with the full knowledge that Senate Republicans wouldn't vote to convict and remove him from office. My argument was that it would put Republicans on the record showing that they don't care that the President is a criminal. I also argued that, essentially, not drafting articles of impeachment for that reason would be its own statement on our nation's values, and that that statement would be quite bad.

Well, perhaps two Republican Senators were reading my posts and thought, "Hey, why make Cardinal wait for impeachment before it gets to that? Let's go there now."



https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1072244175544963073

At this point it's not a significant step to go from saying, "I don't care if he committed Federal Crimes because look at the economy" to "I don't care if he illegally conspired with a hostile foreign state because look at [insert Conservative goal here]."

The fact that we've already reached the point that Republican Senators are comfortable going on the record stating that rule of law is irrelevant represents the most recent and dramatic deterioration in the foundation of our Democracy. As bad as the nation's dialogue is (not least to say the quality of dialogue here on DP right now), what follows once our debates have shifted from arguing that crimes happened to arguing why crime is bad? If this kind of nihilism is successful in shaping the country's narrative, I won't be very optimistic about what happens next.

That.
 

azgreg

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One conservative poster here lashed out, barely apropos of the post he was responding to, "You guys owe us Hillary's head on a pike." I think that pretty much says it all. They failed to impeach Bill, and when they failed to get Hillary thrown in jail I think that completed the long process of losing their minds. They're willing to end the American experiment altogether because they didn't get to destroy the Clintons in the way they always imagined they would.

The next time you run across this poster tell him QAnon is on it. Any day now.
 

Amelia

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Orrin Hatch on Donald Trump directing Michael Cohen to commit a federal crime: “I don’t care.”

Orrin Hatch on Bill Clinton lying under oath about having sex with Monica Lewinsky: “Perjury and obstruct justice ... rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors.”

The modern GOP in a nutshell.

Bingo.
 

Mach

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Their official uniform:

zara-ireally-dont-care-do-u-jacket-1529606641.jpg
 

Cardinal

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The ramifications of the Senators' answers are something I'll be processing for a while.

1. Republicans voted into office to create legislation just expressed that the rule of law is naturally a barrier to their power.
2. Republicans voted into office to create legislation and be a check on the Executive branch have just pre-emptively dismissed Mueller's investigation and deemed any conclusions to be irrelevant.

We crossed a really bad threshold today.
 

Jetboogieman

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The ramifications of the Senators' answers are something I'll be processing for a while.

1. Republicans voted into office to create legislation just expressed that the rule of law is naturally a barrier to their power.
2. Republicans voted into office to be a check on the Presidency have prejudged Mueller's investigation to be irrelevant.

We crossed a really bad threshold today.

Its turning into a bit of a meh.

The country is screwed, because it's not even about Trump, if they're willing to vote into power and tolerate someone like him, they'll believe and vote for anyone, they absolutely can and will top the insane decision to elect Trump, with someone even worse down the road, if we get through his Presidency in one piece that is.
 

Cardinal

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Its turning into a bit of a meh.

The country is screwed, because it's not even about Trump, if they're willing to vote into power and tolerate someone like him, they'll believe and vote for anyone, they absolutely can and will top the insane decision to elect Trump, with someone even worse down the road, if we get through his Presidency in one piece that is.

Except there is no "getting through his Presidency," and the Senators' comments highlighted that point more clearly than at any time in the last two years. The observation that Trump is the product of the Republican Party has never been in sharper focus than it is now. That means we've got much bigger problems than Trump.
 

Jetboogieman

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Except there is no "getting through his Presidency," and the Senators' comments highlighted that point more clearly than at any time in the last two years. The observation that Trump is the product of the Republican Party has never been in sharper focus than it is now. That means we've got much bigger problems than Trump.

Which is pretty much my point.
 

SonOfDaedalus

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They went from “Nothing Burger” to “Where’s the crime?” to “It’s not illegal” and now to “So, what he’s a criminal the economy is good?”
 

uptower

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Earlier today, it was my position that impeachment should be brought against Trump even with the full knowledge that Senate Republicans wouldn't vote to convict and remove him from office. My argument was that it would put Republicans on the record showing that they don't care that the President is a criminal.

Good point that. Unfortunately it won't really hurt the GOP. For that 30-odd percent that's gone down the rabbit hole, anything goes as long as it's orange and can't string a sentence together. For the rest, they'll just shrug and say, 'Meh, better than Hillary'.
 

Middle_Ground

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The ramifications of the Senators' answers are something I'll be processing for a while.

1. Republicans voted into office to create legislation just expressed that the rule of law is naturally a barrier to their power.
2. Republicans voted into office to create legislation and be a check on the Executive branch have just pre-emptively dismissed Mueller's investigation and deemed any conclusions to be irrelevant.

We crossed a really bad threshold today.

We crossed that threshold on January 20 2017.
History is just repeating itself....there are still Republicans that think Nixon did nothing wrong.
These are the same people that want to lock up everyone who has so much as jay walked, they want walls built, they want anyone that has D or claims to be a liberal held to 10x's the standard they have for there chosen.
When one of their own is the criminal, it's a process crime, no biggie, it's not really a crime, we need to change laws according to Rand Paul because campaign finance violations are not crimes.
 

azgreg

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https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CREC-1999-02-23/pdf/CREC-1999-02-23-senate.pdf

Orrin Hatch 2/23/99:
History thus demonstrates that acts
or conduct that demeans the integrity
of the office, or harms an individual’s
reputation in such a way as to engender
a lack of public confidence in the
office holder or the political system is
an impeachable offense. Justice Joseph
Story, in his celebrated Commentaries
on the Constitution of the United
States §762 (1835), made this abundantly
clear when he wrote that impeachment
lies for private behavior
that harms the society or demeans its
institutions:

Orrin Hatch today:
"The Democrats will do anything to hurt this president.”
Told it was alleged by SDNY, Hatch told me:
“Okay but I don’t care; all I can say is he’s doing a good job as President

What an embarrassment.
 

Cardinal

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House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy arguing that Trump can't be impeached for criminal campaign finance violations because then many members of Congress would also have to go:

"If Schiff is taking this beyond to say this is an impeachable offense because of a campaign finance problem, there's a lot of members in Congress that would have to leave for that same reason."

https://twitter.com/grantstern/status/1072234344666841088
 

poweRob

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Earlier today, it was my position that impeachment should be brought against Trump even with the full knowledge that Senate Republicans wouldn't vote to convict and remove him from office. My argument was that it would put Republicans on the record showing that they don't care that the President is a criminal. I also argued that, essentially, not drafting articles of impeachment for that reason would be its own statement on our nation's values, and that that statement would be quite bad.

Well, perhaps two Republican Senators were reading my posts and thought, "Hey, why make Cardinal wait for impeachment before it gets to that? Let's go there now."



https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/1072244175544963073

At this point it's not a significant step to go from saying, "I don't care if he committed Federal Crimes because look at the economy" to "I don't care if he illegally conspired with a hostile foreign state because look at [insert Conservative goal here]."

The fact that we've already reached the point that Republican Senators are comfortable going on the record stating that rule of law is irrelevant represents the most recent and dramatic deterioration in the foundation of our Democracy. As bad as the nation's dialogue is (not least to say the quality of dialogue here on DP right now), what follows once our debates have shifted from arguing that crimes happened to arguing why crime is bad? If this kind of nihilism is successful in shaping the country's narrative, I won't be very optimistic about what happens next.

That's the last stop. From denial denial denial and now near the end. "So WHAT@!!!!!!!????@!!!!

The cult will stick with him.
 

poweRob

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Funny. When Clinton was President, the republicans were hell bent on impeaching him - even though the economy was very strong at the time.

And the majority of Americans didn't care about his adultery claiming that was between him and Hillary. All Americans cared about was having a job and the economy was strong.

But the republicans had other ideas. They thought Clinton's lies and adultery were impeachable offences and they wasted MILLIONS of dollars and YEARS investigating and pursuing this.

Now we have a liar and an adulterer who allegedly committed federal crimes - and the republicans are just dismissing it all because the economy is doing well.

More proof that the republicans are putting trump before the country. In their world, trump is above the law - something the founding fathers never would have allowed.

But where, say some, is the King of America? I’ll tell you, friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal Brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honours, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the Charter; let it be brought forth placed on the Divine Law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the Crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among the people whose right it is.

-- Thomas Paine
 

Mach

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I do love the "It's Democrats that are attacking Trump!" line.

- Started as an FBI investigation, Assigned to Mueller (a Republican) by Trump's deputy AG, because of Trump's own actions.
- Trump's campaign team has lied and obstructed the investigation since day one, had they cooperated, it would have been over by now.
Democrats can't even call a ****ing subpoena right now being in the minority!

No dummies, it's not Democrats that are the trouble for Team-Trump.
 

Cardinal

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Senator John Kennedy:

On CNN, @SenJohnKennedy downplays federal prosecutors implicating President Trump in crimes: "Well, when I read the filings by Mr. Mueller, I was looking primarily for evidence of illegal Russian collusion. I didn't see a lot of that."

SEN KENNEDY: The president has already said the payments to women were a private business transaction.
CNN: Do you believe that?
KENNEDY: I don't know.
CNN: Would that have been relevant info for voters?
KENNEDY: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ People understood Trump is a flamboyant player.

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1072588457845972993?s=11
 
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