Eurozone(and EU) economic revival, positive trends and possibly future boom

[MickB]

EU - The ultimate power block.

Europe has had peace, stability and growth for nearly 60 years, yet only now is a superstate emerging, created by swallowing up ancient lands and cultures to begin anew. This is more than 'solidarity' between nations.

Or perhaps the politicians of Europe have been biding their time until this moment instead of causing trouble.

27 nations erased to create a needless rival to the USA - what a price to pay, and far more than we need to to receive the mere economic benefits originally promised.

 

[bub]

27 nations erased to create a needless rival to the USA - what a price to pay, and far more than we need to to receive the mere economic benefits originally promised.

After the Peace of Westphallen, the concept of Nation State has been invented. The EU is just the next step.

And look at the USA: Have the 13 colonies been "erased" when they signed the act joining them into the USA? No! That's a federation! And the EU is not even a federation, it will be a confederation.

The states still have choices, they will vote the decision. Of course they can't act alone anymore, but if they stay alone they won't have any influence anymore.

 

[MickB]

There have been nations and kingdoms for time immemorial. Small communities building and uniting into larger ones. But the European Union is in a unique position of being made up of truly ancient communities with varied customs. Its leaders, with or without public consent, are sinking these nations into the molten pot of Eurofedaralism. As has been mentioned here somewhere, Europeans (and others) are encouraged to roam each others' lands, to settle and to establish cultures rather than abide by existing ones. The EU replaces cultures and value systems.

The EU is the next step to what? I know Romano Prodi said he dreamt of a world government, but the global population's so diverse that could never happen.

The USA wasn't even a nation until a few generations ago. Before then it was a vast unpopulated land, save for a few Indians, which was colonised and fought over by people of many nationalities. The USA is not the same as the EU.

"The states still have choices, they will vote the decision. Of course they can't act alone anymore, but if they stay alone they won't have any influence anymore." To be more exact, the leadership votes. Why this obsession with a monlolithic superbloc in order to gain the kind of 'influence' easily obtainable by establishing a free trade association?

 

[bub]

The EU replaces cultures and value systems.

No that's not true! The EU is made of our values and will protect our cultures!

Why this obsession with a monlolithic superbloc

Eh a confederation is the opposite of a "monolithic superbloc"!

Look at Switzerland or Belgium. Those are countries where several communities coexist, without being absorbed by the biggest ones, and it works pretty well.

And if you come from the UK I don't know why you worry, you are one of the most populated EU country. I would worry more if I was from Denmark or Portugal.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I just have to stress the UNITED in United Kingdom where Mick obviously live.
The UK itself is also a union.

 

[MickB]

Yes, begun by James I in a bid to end the centuries-old warring tendencies between England and Scotland. And its not been without its serious schisms anyway.

There has been no war in Europe since 1945. Even so, the Treaty Of Rome was more than what was necessary to end war in Europe. That's the reason usually given us for the creation of what we know as the Federal Europe.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Yes, begun by James I in a bid to end the centuries-old warring tendencies between England and Scotland. And its not been without its serious schisms anyway.

There has been no war in Europe since 1945. Even so, the Treaty Of Rome was more than what was necessary to end war in Europe. That's the reason usually given us for the creation of what we know as the Federal Europe.

Federal Europe is what is necessary for Europe, federal Europe is vital to prevent war and promote progress through solidarity and cooperation.

How do you know if that there was no Rome treaty that not another war would have followed? How can you possibly tell that a European federation is not necessary for Europe?
We take all the things of the European federation for granted, while bickering about how its not necessary. Personally I choose to focus on what good the European Union is doing and how this affects me and how it betters my life, and it does. I cannot imagine a peaceful world and a progressive and important Europe without the European federation. Can you?

 

[MickB]

Nobody can tell anything for sure. But to summise, the devastation of world war 2, Cold War division of Europe and the potential horror of nuclear confrontation certainly would have helped keep European conflict on the back burner.

From many an Englishman's point of view, there is never a need for a Eurofederal system which extends to taking it upon itself to govern, police and assume supreme sovereignty on its own authority.

I can imagine an important and influential Europe outside the federal Europe. It has been so far. Indeed, I believe diversity of European customs and peoples deserves a better legacy than to face a future as part of a new fabricated one size fits all pan-European identity.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Indeed, I believe diversity of European customs and peoples deserves a better legacy than to face a future as part of a new fabricated one size fits all pan-European identity.

European customs and people will not disappear just because its a federation instead of 27 nations. The 27 nations are still nations, even if it becomes a federation European culture will always remain, and will always change and progress. This is natural and would have happened without the European Union as well, every culture develops and changes.

 

[MickB]

Each member state, when fully incorporated into the Superstate after having signed the treaty Angela Merkel is so frantic be signed, will not have the sovereign authority to determine its own economy, system of law and its creation, its border controls, its defence policy, its foreign policy and its discretion to implement Emergency Laws.

Some EU bigwigs want a re-drafted Constitution after it was rejected by the Danes and the French. The British and Polish will not be rushed and are wary of being taken unawares.

We have until 2009 to sign, or else we face some kind of as yet undisclosed punishment, the nature of which not openly broadcast.

No nation can exist if it cannot act without permission from the European Commission. And a constitution isn't a constitution if it offers freedoms by allowance. It's rule from the top and it's dividing European people from its leaders.

 

[PeteEU]

The commision can to anything without the okay of the member goverments....

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

The commision can to anything without the okay of the member goverments....

Thats a load of crap and you know it.. The commission cannot do anything without the OK of the governments and the European parliament and/or the council.

 

[MickB]

The European Commission, in the scheme of things, ranks above national governments but below the European Parliament and Council Of Ministers.

The EC is the civil service of the EU. From them eminate thousands of diktats per year, laws which we are bound to obey because national governments in the EU have seen fit to abdicate their absolute sovereignty, save in the event of having to declare national emergency decrees.

I dislike the idea of foreign (or semi-foreign if you will) bodies being able to over-ride national constitution. This is the centre of the entire argument amongst our people of European autarchy dressed as democracy; we weren't asked or asked in honesty.

 

[Red_Dave]

The commision can to anything without the okay of the member goverments....

We dont get a say though. All we can do is look on as our commissoners disscuss/make decisions on important issues behind closed doors, and there i was thinking the E.U was supossed to promote democracy:roll:

 

[MickB]

You surprise me Red Dave. The EU is an inherently Socialist organisation, with its proud Lefties part of the foundations since its creation.

 

[Red_Dave]

You surprise me Red Dave. The EU is an inherently Socialist organisation, with its proud Lefties part of the foundations since its creation.

Thats only surpriseing because you expect everyone who's left of center to think as one solid block:lol: . Whereas the labour party [i mean the real labour party] went through a stage of being very eurosceptic and many far-left M.E.Ps opossed the european consitution on the basis of its alledged neo-liberalism. Theres alot more variation then you seam to think.

Personally i think the E.U has it uses but is in need of reform. We live in a globalised age where entitys like multinational corporations and the I.M.F can exert significant control over nation states and there inhabitants. Therefore supranational organisations like the E.U can potentially provide a possitive balance to this.

However as a democrat and socialist i cannot support a government that makes important decisions behind closed doors and has a foriegn policy that rapes the third world.

 

[MickB]

I don't think everyone Left of centre thinks in one block. However, due to my political bias, I do think a great many are barmy all the same. That can perhaps cloud the issue in my sceptical little brain.

I do wish we had a Labour Party which would speak up for us little people again. Certainly, I was not impressed with their record of strikes, hyper inflation or devaluation of the Pound but at least ordinary grassroots and mid-level Labour could be counted on to empathise with the people they represent at one time.

People like Attlee, Morrison or Bevan were some of the greats, back in the time when true idealism plus a little pragmatism gave us true social reforms.

But when we reached the age of Wilson I do reckon Labour peed on its chips by pulling away from the common man, allowing itself to be dominated by union barons and later on becoming PC.

Anyway, The EU needs more than reform. "In Europe, not run by Europe' is technically possible, but only by complete withdrawal and re-negotiation as a full trading partner - a possibility proved by the likes of Sweden.

The superstate notion was originally conceived to allow Europe to both 'stand' against America and act as a buffer against the Soviet Union. But despite whatever additional clout a superstate can pack, it's a myth to say that the current way is the only way to go about attaining unity.

Yes, you are right.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

You surprise me Red Dave. The EU is an inherently Socialist organisation, with its proud Lefties part of the foundations since its creation.

Thats completely wrong. If you look at the politics of the world with communism (China example)on the left and die hard US capitalism on the right, the European Union is at least centrist if not right leaning. If you look at all the politics of Europe, the European Union is very centrist.

 

[MickB]

I don't call confiscation of independent powers very centrist. If anything, centrists are supposed to be over-keen in dishing out the self-determination.

 

[128shot]

I don't call confiscation of independent powers very centrist. If anything, centrists are supposed to be over-keen in dishing out the self-determination.

you should note that countries voluntarily vote to become part of the European union.

 

[MickB]

"you should note that countries voluntarily vote to become part of the European union."

Regardless of whether or not the citizens of these nations want that.

You have to keep on at that point again and again because the Europhiles want the federal Europe regardless of public opinion.

"I never have understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account" - Raymond Barre, former French minister and EC member.

Claude Cheysson, former French Foreign Secretary said that the Europe of the Maastricht Treaty "could only have been created in the absence of democracy".

Jaques Delors: "Do we really want to return to a Europe of mere trading partners?"

These are the kind of people who drove the European ideal.

So no, it is not a voluntary process as far as ordinary people are concerned. It is a conspiracy.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

"you should note that countries voluntarily vote to become part of the European union."

Regardless of whether or not the citizens of these nations want that.

No, even the Eurosceptic Brits voted FOR the EU, for joining it, referendum.

You have to keep on at that point again and again because the Europhiles want the federal Europe regardless of public opinion.

"I never have understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account" - Raymond Barre, former French minister and EC member.

Claude Cheysson, former French Foreign Secretary said that the Europe of the Maastricht Treaty "could only have been created in the absence of democracy".

Jaques Delors: "Do we really want to return to a Europe of mere trading partners?"

These are the kind of people who drove the European ideal.

So no, it is not a voluntary process as far as ordinary people are concerned. It is a conspiracy.

Do public opinion matter when a country go to war? Do public opinion matter about taxes? No they dont. However, I do believe the best thing for the European Federation is to become a popular democracy institution.

 

[PeteEU]

Thats a load of crap and you know it.. The commission cannot do anything without the OK of the governments and the European parliament and/or the council.

yea was suppose to say CANT (or CAN NOT) .. was tired when posting

 

[MickB]

"No, even the Eurosceptic Brits voted FOR the EU, for joining it, referendum.
" - Only because we were told that we were merely joining a trading community and not a federal superstate.

"Do public opinion matter when a country go to war? Do public opinion matter about taxes? No they dont. However, I do believe the best thing for the European Federation is to become a popular democracy institution." - More arrogance. Public opinion does matter about war and taxes. Governments have risen or fallen on the backs of such issues. And how can Europe be popular if it treats public opinion against it with contempt?

 

[Red_Dave]

No, even the Eurosceptic Brits voted FOR the EU,

Though to be fair what we voted for was a common market not a federal/confederal state. What we were voteing for and what we thought we were voting for are to very different things.