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European leaders unite behind Ukraine following Trump-Zelenskyy confrontation

This is what I've been saying the past couple of weeks. There's no long term reliability any more.

America is a two party country and one of those parties has now become hostile to liberal democracy, hostile to Europe, and pro Putin.
We don't know who America will elect in 4, 8, or 12 years time.
Very true.

We don't know whether there will be "old-style" American elections in the near future - or whether the GOP will complete its agenda of transforming the USA into a banana republic.
 
I am constantly searching for ways to teach the willfully obtuse; although it can be as frustratingly unproductive as trying to teach mathematics to a rock.
For years I assumed that providing facts would persuade most people to use common sense and critical thinking skills.

I'm wrong, of course.

I haven't been able to come up with alternative course, one that breaks down the personality-cult hive mentality.
 
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As Zelensky was trying to explain, before VP Vance deliberately interrupted him, Putin has already reneged on 2 negotiated agreements with Ukraine - so that any peace treaty with Russia, for all intents and purposes, isn't worth the paper its written on without a means of forcing him to comply!

President Trump's aggressive pressuring Ukraine into accepting peace terms with Russia, which he and Putin had negotiated, and publicly admonishing its leader in the Oval Office accusing him of being ungrateful for expressing reservations, this strongly suggests that the American President has his agenda!


Given President Trump's colossal ego, one suspects he is intent on exploiting Zelemsky's current situation to satisfy his personal reasons - brokering a peace agreement would "PUNCH HIS TICKET" to achieve a "NOBEL PEACE PRIZE," something that eluded him during his 1st term!

President Trump's failure to provide Ukraine with any future commitments on America's behalf to ensure that Putin will actually honour the terms of any peace treaty was a strategic error because its a "DEAL BREAKER" - Zelensky is simply not prepared to sign a peace agreement with such an untrustworthy adversary without it!

Based on their public performances in the Oval Office, neither the President nor the Vice President are prepared to accept the principle the best predictor of future behaviour is based on that which was being displayed in the past - at least where Vladimir Putin is involved -

Meanwhile,Trump's preoccupation with leveraging transactional deals was on full display by attempting to take advantage Ukraine's need to secure America's military support by securing the rights for all or part to that nation's rare earth minerals introduces 2 important observations"

1) this episode reveals the US President to be nothing more than an unabashed opportunist, holding a supposed ally to ransom while its fighting for its very existence - despite Trump's claims to the contrary, he will never achieve the role of a "RESPECTED LEADER" on the world stage, his leadership style has been equated to that of "MAFIA CRIME BOSS!"

2) without American assurances to preserve Ukraine's existence as a sovereign state should Putin once again violate , what would persuade those national and multinational mining interests from the private sector to invest the $billions necessary to provide the infrastructure required to make the mining of these rare earth minerals commercially viable - without guarantees concerning this nation's future independence!


For a President who also prides himself on his negotiating shills, INTRODUCTION to NEGOTIATIONS 101" would have taught Trump not to commit the cardinal sin of deliberately depriving you and/or a partner of your Number 1 "BARGAINING CHIP" without at least extracting concessions from your opponent!

Having dispensed with the prospect of Ukraine attaining future membership in NATO, during Trump's first round of negotiations with Putin, the American President has effectively undermined Zelensky's already weakened bargaining position by conceding this issue without receiving any Russian concessions in return!

As you point out, Zelensky popped Trumps bubble of misinformation.
 
You have proven me wrong, I was sure that even MAGA would comprehend @maxparrish's well written post. I guess you can't help some folks.

The willfully obtuse cannot learn. I've seen it my entire working career. In free market terms, that is why many companies die rather than learn and change. I worked for one retail chain that just couldn't get why their accounting and management systems were counterproductive and would lean to ruin.

Didn't matter, people's toes and egos were more important than a rational breakdown. So, the fools then went bankrupt and disappeared, just after I left. A few finally got it, too late. The remainder went on to find employment elsewhere and poison other functioning organizations.

A friend in HR once said "Some people are incapable of changing, you could hold a gun to their head and it wouldn't change".

So it is with supporters of Trumps predatory policies.
 
For years I assumed that providing facts would persuade most people to use common sense and critical thinking skills.

I'm wrong, of course.

I haven't been able to come up with alternative course, one that breaks down the personality-cult hive mentality.

Experts say people know propaganda is bullshit but believe it anyway because they want to.
 
Doesn't have the right to launch someone else's missiles.
According to whom? If you have a treaty in mind, corroborate it contains the "Ukraine does not have the right to defend itself by using "someone else's" missiles clause by copying and pasting the appropriate excerpts from credible sources to which you provide the links.
There is no right to WW3, and that's what attacking the world's largest nuclear power means.
According to whom? What makes you the putin whisperer?

That you appear to believe Ukraine's defending itself against Russia's attacks on Ukrainian territory by launching drones/artillery/missiles into Russia is going to provoke putin into launching nukes at the USA and thus start WWIII is.....interesting, but it's not fact.
What are your thoughts on Bay of Pigs, btw?
That you are free to start a thread about the Bay of Pigs.
Doesn't have the right to command the resources of the nations of the world to do so.
There is no right to WW3.
According to whom? You?
That's why this game is being shut down.
By whom.....putin's puppet, trump?
 
"No clarity" is an understatement. It's chaos. But, that's what the Orange Criminal is known for, right?

I guess there is some chance that Congress will approve funds for Ukraine, despite Trump. But, that's a stretch. It would be political suicide for the Republicans in Congress to specify $ billions for Ukraine. Could the Democrats scrape a few Republicans off the bottom and push something through? My guess is no. But, there's always hope!
At this point it is up to the Euros to confiscate Russia's funds, and approach both US and S. Korea, etc arms companies to buy weapons for Ukraine. If there is Enough money involved, someone is likely to be able to ramp up production. We went from cars to tanks pretty quickly in WWII. Maybe Korea can switch from making KIA cars to KIA Russians with the right incentives.
 
"Me think a bad take" is it? In other words, you don't like what I wrote but can't justify your dislike.

Oh I can justify it but the shorthand of Mitt Romney makes why it is bad pretty concise. Not all of us are paid by the word.

Perhaps you ought to look inward for why you insist on holding irrational beliefs that the rational mind cannot justify?

No. The GOP is MAGA now and the mentality that helped Mitt, McCain and others be useful but losing opposition is well known and established.

Same goes for Pax Americana.

The answer going forward is no thank you,
 
For years I assumed that providing facts would persuade most people to use common sense and critical thinking skills.

I'm wrong, of course.

I haven't been able to come up with alternative course, one that breaks down the personality-cult hive mentality.

That is an interesting question. What does it take beyond evidence and reason to change the minds of stubborn in denial? The best I can tell, from Russians who came to the West before Putin's wars, is they changed their minds slowly and indirectly.

For example, a young Russian woman came to the west in pursuit of a degree in Journalism. Thankfully she went to a US university where the ethics of journalism aspired to be as objective as possible, taught her how to weigh evidence, how to check for internal and external consistency of sources, etc.

She graduated a proud and patriotic Russian and started work in America. Both in college and later she started suffering cognitive dissidence. When she defended Russia for its transgressions, people patiently recommended she read particular scholarly articles or books. She said nobody mocked her, they just smiled and pointed out where she might find alternate views.

I took her a few years, but her now western identity as an "objective" and professional Jounalist kept finding new information that exploded the Russia as victim myths she grew up with. She said she went through a few years of confusion before one day it hit her: "I had been lied to all my life". She was stunned that it took her so long to see it.

The key to enlightenment started with teaching how to think; if a person has no reason to embrace truth itself as objectively knowable then they are not able to change their minds.

The second stage is direct, not force, knowledge into their transformed brain. "Seek the truth and ye shall know it" becomes possible.

Takes a long time and some people can't learn - they are, intellectually, more or less flat worms - they react to pain or pleasure, but not much else. They are, for example, most fo the toadies that surround Putin and many that surround Trump.
 
"Today, it became clear that the free world needs a new leader. It’s up to us, Europeans, to take this challenge." Kaja Kallas.

I couldn't agree more. America is Putin's bitch and needs to be kicked to the curb.

Time for the grown ups to take charge.












If only they would rally around Ukraine in a meaningful way, by ponying up the vast majority of military aid, instead of always looking to the US to do it.
 
Oh I can justify it but the shorthand of Mitt Romney makes why it is bad pretty concise. Not all of us are paid by the word.

No. The GOP is MAGA now and the mentality that helped Mitt, McCain and others be useful but losing opposition is well known and established.

Same goes for Pax Americana.

The answer going forward is no thank you,

How unpersuasive.
 
If only they would rally around Ukraine in a meaningful way, by ponying up the vast majority of military aid, instead of always looking to the US to do it.
Europe has donated more than the US.
 
Europe has donated more than the US.
No they haven’t. And then you will quote Hamish’s numbers which conveniently split the U.S. contribution into two categories.
In terms of absolute dollars:

USA $119 Bn (Plus $63 Bn in replenished stocks that stay here)
EU $138 Bn
UK $12.8 Bn
The truth is that the U.S. has spent $182 billion on Ukraine, which is $44 billion more than the EU.
 
View attachment 67558610
'
As Zelensky was trying to explain, before VP Vance deliberately interrupted him, Putin has already reneged on 2 negotiated agreements with Ukraine - so that any peace treaty with Russia, for all intents and purposes, isn't worth the paper its written on without a means of forcing him to comply!
TRUE.
President Trump's aggressive pressuring Ukraine into accepting peace terms with Russia, which he and Putin but not Zelensky had negotiated, and then publicly admonishing its leader in the Oval Office, accusing him of being ungrateful for expressing reservations, this strongly suggests that the American President has his own agenda!
TRUE
Given President Trump's colossal ego, one suspects he is intent on exploiting Zelemsky's current situation to satisfy his personal ambitions - in Trump's mind brokering a peace agreement would "PUNCH HIS TICKET" to achieve a "NOBEL PEACE PRIZE," something that eluded him during his 1st term!
ENTIRELY PLAUSIBLE and CONSISTENT WITH TRUMP's PERSONALITY
Trump's failure to provide Ukraine with any future commitments on America's behalf to ensure that Putin will actually honour the terms of any peace treaty was a strategic error because its a "DEAL BREAKER" - Zelensky is simply not prepared to sign a peace agreement with his untrustworthy adversary without it, irrespective of how often the America President and Vice President "browbeats" him.
TRUE SO FAR.
Based on their public performances in the Oval Office, it appears that neither the President nor the Vice President are prepared to accept the well-established principle that the best predictor of future behaviour is based on that which was being displayed in the past - at least where Vladimir Putin is involved -
TRUE AGAIN.
Meanwhile,Trump's preoccupation with leveraging transactional deals was on full display, attempting to take advantage Ukraine's need to secure America's military support by securing the rights for all or part of that nation's rare earth minerals introduces 2 important observations"

1) this episode reveals the US President to be nothing more than an unabashed opportunist, holding a supposed ally to ransom while its fighting for its very existence - despite Trump's claims to the contrary, he will never achieve the role of a "RESPECTED LEADER" on the world stage, his leadership style has been equated to that of "MAFIA CRIME BOSS!"
TRUE and ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH TRUMP's PAST BEHAVIOR.
2) without American assurances to preserve Ukraine's existence as a sovereign state should Putin once again violate his agreement, what would persuade those national and multinational mining interests from the private sector to invest the $billions necessary to provide the infrastructure required to make the mining of these rare earth minerals commercially viable - without guarantees concerning this nation's future independence!
TRUE.
For a President who also prides himself on his negotiating skills, INTRODUCTION to NEGOTIATIONS 101" would have taught Trump not to commit the cardinal sin of deliberately depriving you and/or a partner of your Number 1 "BARGAINING CHIP" - without at least extracting concessions from your opponent in return!
TRUE.
Having dispensed with the prospect of Ukraine attaining future membership in NATO, a decision made during Trump's first round of negotiations with Putin, the American President has effectively undermined Zelensky's already weakened bargaining position by conceding this issue without receiving any Russian concessions in return!
AND TRUE ONCE MORE.

I invite any Trump supporter to explain to us how any point made above in incorrect?
Anyone?
Anyone?

Thought not.
 
No they haven’t. And then you will quote Hamish’s numbers which conveniently split the U.S. contribution into two categories.

The truth is that the U.S. has spent $182 billion on Ukraine, which is $44 billion more than the EU.
1000028632.webp

 
How unpersuasive.

1740885465244.webp

This is persuasive. You can be the one explaining how you need another $200 billion and eventually American military intervention.

Enjoy persuading everyone to that view.
 
If other countries want to give Zelensky what he wants, security guarantees, by all means they can put their troops on the ground. The United States is out. C'mon Europe and Canada, put up or shut up.
Yes, let all of them do what they claim they want. Let them put their troops on the ground and continue to pay munitions needed. Talk is cheap actions on their part is needed. I think someone should start interviewing these European countries including Canada if they are willing to send their blood and treasure and tax dollars to do so.
 
View attachment 67558618

This is persuasive. You can be the one explaining how you need another $200 billion and eventually American military intervention.

Enjoy persuading everyone to that view.

And all of those govts are already on thin ice. They'll all quickly fall like dominos, resulting a complete change in the political landscape.

This is why they're all so desperate to abuse their power in holding off elections as long as possible, to fend off their fed up masses.
 
Yet, at the rate Putin's economy is sinking, in 6 months Luxembourg might be able to take Russia.

According to Field Marshal Zelensky during his Whitehouse media stunt, the Russians will soon be rolling their tanks into Washington, DC so that Americans will regret not kowtowing to him more.
 
View attachment 67558618

This is persuasive. You can be the one explaining how you need another $200 billion and eventually American military intervention.

Enjoy persuading everyone to that view.
If NATO doesn't back Trump, then Trump will likely pull out of NATO and it will be more than tariffs they face.
 
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