Europe is as pro life as Mississippi

[minnie616]

OH! THATS "progressive policy" to you?

so you would agree with limiting abortion on request to the first 12 weeks of pregnancy?

By what right then do you challenge Mississippi's abortion law?

No, you wouldn't, and that's what this thread points out. Ireland, which is apparantly the one country that has changed its abortions laws since 2018(see, map) is less pro-choice than mississippi, which limits abortion only on request to the first 15 weeks of pregnancy. If the media were consistent, what they would actually tell you is "Ireland bans abortion after the first 12 weeks of pregnancy"

I hate to be the one to inform you of this again, but what you are believing just isn't true. Likely, you've bought propaganda that europe is more progressive than it really is. They tell you "yes, they have legalized abortion" without telling you what the limits are, and that the limits are far more restrictive than what you would find in Oregon, which has virtually no limits on abortion.

But you know what, I'll be fair to both of you. If you really want to replicate Ireland's abortion law to the states nationwide, I think i can agree with that. I think that would be very prolife of you. I can easily agree to such a compromise as a pro-life person, and finally bury this as a political issue. I'm satisified that you can look at a country that's more conservative than mississippi on this issue, and hold it up as a bastion of women's rights.

I hate to inform you of this but :

The US rate of abortions is lower than many European countries even though most European countries only allow abortions in the first trimester and the US allows abortions up to 20 weeks in most states.



The abortion rate in 2017 was lower than Australia, Denmark, France, Hungry, Poland, Sweden, New Zealand, etc.

And was about the same as Canada and the United Kingdom.

Click on link below:

Abortion Rates by Country​

Abortion rates by country (list by country)

 

[beefheart]

OH! THATS "progressive policy" to you?

so you would agree with limiting abortion on request to the first 12 weeks of pregnancy?

By what right then do you challenge Mississippi's abortion law?

No, you wouldn't, and that's what this thread points out. Ireland, which is apparantly the one country that has changed its abortions laws since 2018(see, map) is less pro-choice than mississippi, which limits abortion only on request to the first 15 weeks of pregnancy. If the media were consistent, what they would actually tell you is "Ireland bans abortion after the first 12 weeks of pregnancy"

I hate to be the one to inform you of this again, but what you are believing just isn't true. Likely, you've bought propaganda that europe is more progressive than it really is. They tell you "yes, they have legalized abortion" without telling you what the limits are, and that the limits are far more restrictive than what you would find in Oregon, which has virtually no limits on abortion.

But you know what, I'll be fair to both of you. If you really want to replicate Ireland's abortion law to the states nationwide, I think i can agree with that. I think that would be very prolife of you. I can easily agree to such a compromise as a pro-life person, and finally bury this as a political issue. I'm satisified that you can look at a country that's more conservative than mississippi on this issue, and hold it up as a bastion of women's rights.

Face it, you used old data, and got called on it.

 

[gboisjo]

Yes, you’re a good parrot of wha though heat on right-wing media.

I'm not a parrot, I, me believes that human life is a continuum stating with the embryo till death.

Science backs up the complexity of the unborn ..early on the baby begins to communicate with the mother.

Flushing that precious life down a toilet ..flies in the face of what I personally and morally believe.

Unborn Babies Respond to Mother's Touch

Doctors recommend pregnant women rub their bellies in addition to talking to their baby bumps.

healthcare.utah.edu

Baby Communication Begins from the Womb

A lot of pregnant women often talk, sing, play music, and find ways to communicate with their unborn babies. While some people may think that this may not do anything for an unborn child, studies now show that as a matter of fact, this practice

www.daytranslations.com

Mum’s the word: Unborn babies respond to mother’s voice and touch

Babies in the womb will respond to interaction from its mother, including conversation and touching, a University of Dundee study has found.

www.dundee.ac.uk

While in womb, babies begin learning language from their mothers

Babies only hours old are able to differentiate between sounds from their native language and a foreign language, scientists have discovered. The study indicates that babies begin absorbing language...

www.washington.edu

Pre-Birth Communication - The Natural Child Project

www.naturalchild.org

 

[JasperL]

I'm curious what europeans think. Did you know your abortion laws were so conservative, stricter than even republican mississippi?

But that's a lie or you are ignorant of abortion laws in Europe and in Mississippi, despite you having been informed about both on this thread. So what is it? Are you too lazy to read your own thread, including replies to you, or are you lying, gaslighting the forum?

As we speak, abortion is outlawed in Mississippi except in very rare cases - life of the mother, rape reported to police.

 

[JasperL]

From your link:

The median time limit for abortion on demand in European countries is 12 weeks (i.e., abortion on demand is not legal after the first trimester).

OK, and depending on what the red states do in the next year or so, the median time limit for abortion 'on demand' in the U.S. will be 0 weeks. It's zero weeks now in Tennessee (where I live) and in Mississippi, the state the OP wanted to use as his example. The maps showing where it's already 0 weeks (thanks to 'trigger' laws) have been posted many times.

 

[DarkWizard12]

I hate to inform you of this but :

The US rate of abortions is lower than many European countries even though most European countries only allow abortions in the first trimester and the US allows abortions up to 20 weeks in most states.



The abortion rate in 2017 was lower than Australia, Denmark, France, Hungry, Poland, Sweden, New Zealand, etc.

And was about the same as Canada and the United Kingdom.

Click on link below:


Abortion rates by country (list by country)

So you agree to adopt Ireland's abortion laws? It sounds like a yes, but you use too many words.

 

[DarkWizard12]

But that's a lie or you are ignorant of abortion laws in Europe and in Mississippi, despite you having been informed about both on this thread. So what is it? Are you too lazy to read your own thread, including replies to you, or are you lying, gaslighting the forum?

What about europe's abortion laws is a lie? point it out! Are you telling me that there are NO limits on abortion? Because that's a lie. Ask any woman who's requested an abortion at 24 weeks over there, or in the UK's case, requires a physician's approval.

As we speak, abortion is outlawed in Mississippi except in very rare cases - life of the mother, rape reported to police.

Not so. Abortion is currently limited to 15 weeks. The abortion ban will go into effect on July 7.

It's funny. Liberals challenged MS's law in scotus limiting it to 8 weeks, for being too stringent, and now, they're going to be slapped with a blanket abortion ban. what the hell were these liberal lawyers thinking? they were so better off not challenging it!

 

[Irredentist]

I'm not a parrot, I, me believes that human life is a continuum stating with the embryo till death.

Science backs up the complexity of the unborn ..early on the baby begins to communicate with the mother.

Flushing that precious life down a toilet ..flies in the face of what I personally and morally believe.

Unborn Babies Respond to Mother's Touch

Doctors recommend pregnant women rub their bellies in addition to talking to their baby bumps.

healthcare.utah.edu

Baby Communication Begins from the Womb

A lot of pregnant women often talk, sing, play music, and find ways to communicate with their unborn babies. While some people may think that this may not do anything for an unborn child, studies now show that as a matter of fact, this practice

www.daytranslations.com

Mum’s the word: Unborn babies respond to mother’s voice and touch

Babies in the womb will respond to interaction from its mother, including conversation and touching, a University of Dundee study has found.

www.dundee.ac.uk

While in womb, babies begin learning language from their mothers

Babies only hours old are able to differentiate between sounds from their native language and a foreign language, scientists have discovered. The study indicates that babies begin absorbing language...

www.washington.edu

Pre-Birth Communication - The Natural Child Project

www.naturalchild.org

Women aren't obligated to carry their pregnancy to term solely to appease your moral sensitivities

 

[DarkWizard12]

Face it, you used old data, and got called on it.

You literally proved all european states limit abortion for me, and then you say 2018 is old data??? look at this dude! MAN!

Anything to make europe look more progressive than you huh? I suppose the left needs it to be that way so they can make themselves look sane!

 

[JasperL]

The abortion ban will go into effect on July 7.

I see, so you're comparing Mississippi's laws over the next 9 days to the permanent laws in Europe. It's a bullshit comparison and everyone here knows it, including you.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Face it, you used old data, and got called on it.

im sorry for ridiculing you like that. I don't want to come off as bad faith, so i'll play your game. just to be fair.

Which developed, european country, do you believe, has the best 'liberalized(lol)' abortion laws, according to you? Just name one. Any one. Pick any one you want.

 

[DarkWizard12]

I see, so you're comparing Mississippi's laws over the next 9 days to the permanent laws in Europe.

This was mississippi's law for the last 40 years.

It's a bullshit comparison and everyone here knows it, including you.

No. Liberals challenged this law for being too stringent, when the rest of the developed world has similar restrictions. Either the developed world isn't this bastion of reproductive rights, or they are extremist on abortion. Pick one.

 

[Fletch]

OK, and depending on what the red states do in the next year or so, the median time limit for abortion 'on demand' in the U.S. will be 0 weeks. It's zero weeks now in Tennessee (where I live) and in Mississippi, the state the OP wanted to use as his example. The maps showing where it's already 0 weeks (thanks to 'trigger' laws) have been posted many times.

And your point is what? That the unhinged, abortion loving left brought this on themselves? Yeah, I would agree.

 

[JasperL]

This was mississippi's law for the last 40 years.

The one that banned abortion and takes effect in 9 or 10 days?

You're lying again.

No. Liberals challenged this law for being too stringent, when the rest of the developed world has similar restrictions. Either the developed world isn't this bastion of reproductive rights, or they are extremist on abortion. Pick one.

I'm a "liberal" and I didn't challenge the law..... And presenting stupid false choices is a very stupid way to have a debate.

 

[DarkWizard12]

The one that banned abortion and takes effect in 9 or 10 days?

You're lying again.

are you playing dumb? It's quite clear.

I'm a "liberal" and I didn't challenge the law..... And presenting stupid false choices is a very stupid way to have a debate.

Good for you. I bet you really hate those egotistical, liberal, pro-choice lawyers who took it to scotus thinking they would win.

 

[JasperL]

And your point is what? That the unhinged, abortion loving left brought this on themselves? Yeah, I would agree.

You cited medians in Europe, and I cited a possible median in the U.S. If you want to compare them, you can. But instead you moved the goal posts to a straw man. As to that dishonest straw man, well, of course, to right wing ideologues, it's ALWAYS the Democrats' fault. It's liberals forcing red states to ban abortion, cause......???

FWIW, I don't know why you right wingers have to insist that believing women should have the FREEDOM to make the incredibly personal and often difficult choice about carrying a baby without interference from the state means we 'love' abortion. I don't love abortion. IMO, every abortion is in some sense a tragedy. That position is consistent with the ACA requirement that insurers cover contraception and the prescribing of contraception at $0 cost to women, to remove any financial barrier to effective birth control, so we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. What I don't pretend is that I or a bunch of idiot legislators in the state capitol have any business making that decision for any woman.

But you're the "libertarian" cheering the state interfering with that decision, and as far as I can tell, it's only because the "left" oppose that.

 

[reinaert]

Not sure about that list.

Abortion is a protected right and provided by the public in Italy.

 

[beefheart]

im sorry for ridiculing you like that. I don't want to come off as bad faith, so i'll play your game. just to be fair.

Which developed, european country, do you believe, has the best 'liberalized(lol)' abortion laws, according to you? Just name one. Any one. Pick any one you want.

You based your whole thread on bad data. Your bad.

 

[Fletch]

Well, of course, to right wing ideologues, it's ALWAYS the Democrats' fault. It's liberals forcing red states to ban abortion, cause......???

FWIW, I don't know why you right wingers have to insist that believing women should have the FREEDOM to make the incredibly personal and often difficult choice about carrying a baby without interference from the state means we 'love' abortion. I don't love abortion. IMO, every abortion is in some sense a tragedy. That position is consistent with the ACA requirement that insurers cover contraception and the prescribing of contraception at $0 cost to women, to remove any financial barrier to effective birth control, so we reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. What I don't pretend is that I or a bunch of idiot legislators in the state capitol have any business making that decision for any woman.

But you're the "libertarian" cheering the state interfering with that decision, and as far as I can tell, it's only because the "left" oppose that.

You believe in strict regulation of gun rights which happen to be a right written into the Constitution. Hell, you are probably in favor of confiscation, Yet somehow with abortion, which is not q Constitutional right, you want no restrictions. How do you square that? And despite all the leftist hyperventilating, all this SC decision does is return the issue to the states and the people to decide. I thought you libs loved democracy. I guess that was just BS too.

 

[DarkWizard12]

You based your whole thread on bad data. Your bad.

If you can prove that the majority of countries europe have no limits on abortion, then i'll admit it!

but do go on, tell me which european country has abortion laws that align with your views the most?

 

[beefheart]

If you can prove that the majority of countries europe have no limits on abortion, then i'll admit it!

but do go on, tell me which european country has abortion laws that align with your views the most?

Oh, si now it's no limits. How lame.

 

[JasperL]

You believe in strict regulation of gun rights which happen to be a right written into the Constitution. Hell, you are probably in favor of confiscation,

First of all, I own about a dozen guns and only rarely ever post on gun control issues. If you want to quote me and my position on "gun rights" do it. Otherwise, it's your typical bullshit to fabricate a position and attribute it to me, as a red herring to THIS discussion. We have a forum for gun control.

Yet somehow with abortion, which is not q Constitutional right, you want no restrictions.

Again, if you want to assert I believe in "no" restrictions, you might want to quote me ever taking that position. Here's a hint - that's false.

How do you square that? And despite all the leftist hyperventilating, all this SC decision does is return the issue to the states and the people to decide. I thought you libs loved democracy. I guess that was just BS too.

How do you square a bunch of morons, almost all of them men, in my state legislature deciding for every woman in a state whether or not she must carry a pregnancy to term? Do you favor the state making those decisions? Where's that in the "libertarian" handbook? I thought you libertarians opposed the state inserting its fat ****ing nose into decisions that we as individuals should have the freedom to make?

 

[Fletch]

First of all, I own about a dozen guns and only rarely ever post on gun control issues. If you want to quote me and my position on "gun rights" do it. Otherwise, it's your typical bullshit to fabricate a position and attribute it to me, as a red herring to THIS discussion. We have a forum for gun control.

Then that makes you unique among your fellow leftists who you know believe exactly as I stated.

Again, if you want to assert I believe in "no" restrictions, you might want to quote me ever taking that position. Here's a hint - that's false.

How do you square a bunch of morons, almost all of them men, in my state legislature deciding for every woman in a state whether or not she must carry a pregnancy to term? Do you favor the state making those decisions? Where's that in the "libertarian" handbook? I thought you libertarians opposed the state inserting its fat ****ing nose into decisions that we as individuals should have the freedom to make?

Libertarians believe the state is there to protect the rights and liberties of its citizens. You dont have the liberty to take the life of another. That is where the state steps in. You want to remove a wart, no one is going to stop you. Youwant to remove a human life, the state has a role. But sorry, I dont take lectures about abusive state power from leftists who never met a state mandate they didnt like. See Covid over the last two years.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Not sure about that list.

Abortion is a protected right and provided by the public in Italy.

see, you're right. But the data is also correct.

how is this? Well, they stretch definitions. They equate "limitations" with "legalization".

so you'll have progressives on the forum say "Europe has legalized abortion everywhere! yay abortions! mental masturbation everywhere!" and bs like that, when really, yes they do legalize abortions, if, in italy's case, they have a valid reason within the first 90 days. After 90 days, a woman is indeed entitled to an abortion if it threatens her life..

Furthermore, Italy requires a guardian's approval if the girl is under 18, and doctors and counselors are allowed to conscientiously object to providing an abortion.
source: Italian Law 194

If this is what you call a "protected right", then do realize this is literally everything pro-life moderates have asked for. If this is the kind of laws you think about as "pro-choice" and the kind of laws you want, then you are, by every measure, a pro-lifer.

here is even a CNN article complaining about italy's laws https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2019/05/europe/italy-abortion-intl/

 

[DarkWizard12]

Oh, si now it's no limits. How lame.

which european country has abortion laws that align with your views the most?