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EU innovation index within itself

Rainman05

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http://www.statistik-bw.de/Pressemitt/2014408.pdf

Just one photo.


On another issue, unrelated to that pdf:
I'd be interested to see how the EU stacks up against the rest of the world.

In my opinion, we're pretty bad in the IT and software tech field and also don't really come ahead in electronics and electronic components/consumer electronics... but we're good in machine industry, robotics, medical tech, and a few more. But I would like to see a world wide statistic with all other countries in it.
 
If you think about the EU in terms of fiscal condition by nation, and investment in technology and infrastructure in similar context then the pretty picture makes perfect sense.

Totally unrelated to the thread, I would like to see these results for the US.
 
If you think about the EU in terms of fiscal condition by nation, and investment in technology and infrastructure in similar context then the pretty picture makes perfect sense.

Totally unrelated to the thread, I would like to see these results for the US.

I'm guessing it would look something like this, by state:
NY, California and Texas -> bluest
The rest... "meh" and red.

California, if it were its own country, would probably be in the top 7 countries on the planet in innovation. And the USA is now #5 in the world, would probably lose a lot of places if California wouldn't be in it.
 

Not a big shocker.. big industrialized cities and rich areas are higher than poor areas..

On another issue, unrelated to that pdf:
I'd be interested to see how the EU stacks up against the rest of the world.

Problem is how to measure it. The "normal" way is by number of patents filed. There the EU as a block around nr 5, with the US, China, Japan and South Korea ahead.

But there is a problem with this method if you ask me. The US is the largest "free" market and that means the most money. Traditionally European companies have "innovated" in the US because that is where the money is and the market is.

Now Japan and South Korea have always been rather "nationalistic" when it comes to pretty much everything. South Korea became as big as it is, because of protectionism, and Japan pretty much the same. This also means that they keep to home when it comes to patents as I understand it. You can see this in action with Samsung and LG who have very much more advanced products in South Korea than they actually sell outside South Korea.

Then there is China, the new kid on the block. Same as the South Koreans and Japanese on the nationalistic protectionist aspect plus of course the massive market.

And that leads little old Europe, tons of countries with relatively low populations individually, but in a massive common market but not a common patent system. We have the European Patent Office with is an administrative system that gives out "bundles" of patents in member countries, but in reality it means that each country has its own patent system and it is the individual country that has to handle patent disputes. Now legally and theoretically the result of a patent case from one member country should be enforceable in other countries, but since there is no Europe wide patent enforcement system, then it is again up to the individual countries court systems to deal with it.

All this means that filling, holding and enforcing a patent in the EU is far harder and more bureaucratic than it is in other places like the US and China. Of course the US has its own problems with massive half a decade to a full decade back log of approvals, but it is still easier and more lucrative to do it in the US than the EU. The Apple vs Samsung case is a good example. Many of the patents that Apple sued Samsung over have since the original judgement actually been thrown out or invalidated by the US patent office, but as long as file a patent and get it registered in the US, then it is "legal" while it is being processed.. and this process could take many years.
 
In my opinion, we're pretty bad in the IT and software tech field and also don't really come ahead in electronics and electronic components/consumer electronics... but we're good in machine industry, robotics, medical tech, and a few more. But I would like to see a world wide statistic with all other countries in it.

Well Europe does not have the big global brands in consumer electronics as it use to have. Phillips, Electrolux, Nokia, Blaupunkt and many more, were big companies long ago, but due to competition from countries with protective electronics industries /wave South Korea and Japan, then these companies have declined as a consumer brand over the years. Most people dont realize that the CD was in fact invented by Phillips back in the day and Nokia still holds some of the key patents that drive our mobile computing industry. Plus ARM, the chip maker that is in all mobile phones these days and tablets... European company, at least for now.

On the software side, well that is more interesting. The biggest enterprise software company in the world is of course Microsoft. Followed by IBM and Oracle. These are pretty much household names. Now in 4th place is an European giant called SAP. It is a massive 77 billion dollar company out of Germany. Also in the top is Siemens who is actually a massive software and hardware producer as well.

On the consumer side of things, yes we dont have an Amazon type company but that comes down to population and a closed market. The biggest online store in the world is Alibaba out of China with a market of 1+ billion people. Then comes Amazon with and initial market of 300 million. If we look at Europe, then we cant see it as a common market on the internet like it is in the US, so we have to look at it as individual countries, which means the 88 million in Germany and 66 million in France and the UK .. all different languages and until relatively recently also different currencies and still fall under different copywrite laws which is hampering market access and innovation big time.

Case in point. Spotify, a Swedish company that has taken the music industry by surprise. Their growth in Europe was hampered by the copywrite system big time. It is so silly that Spotify started out in Sweden but it took half a decade for it come to Denmark, but arrived in the UK and Spain relatively fast. Why? The rights holders (music industry) refused to give them permission in Denmark, even though the very same companies had given permission in Sweden, UK and Spain. And these same companies refused to allow Spotify to enter the US market for almost a decade and when they finally allowed it, then local streaming companies had been in place for a while and not only that these same rights holders demanded that the service in existing countries be changed...

Netflix is another great example. Spain has one of the highest piracy rates in Europe but it also has no streaming services like Netflix. Why? Again copywrite. Netflix and similar services like Amazon Prime exists in the UK and elsewhere, but in Spain the local rights holders refuse to give permission for such companies and when they finally do then these companies die fast because of the lack of content. Now these local rights holders are.. yes the usual suspects that gave permission in the UK and elsewhere already. In Spain there are actually 2 streaming services.. one is from Canal+ which requires an expensive monthly subscription (30+ euros) and is more a catchup service and then there is a true "netflix" type which is somewhat popular according to their own numbers. Problem is, the things they have on the site is old... and I mean old. TV series that long have been cancelled only have the first seasons and the final seasons and so on... good example is Fringe, cancelled 2013 and has 5 seasons. Only the first 2 seasons are available on this site.. why? We have Google Play here, and iTunes, but they are both locked to Spanish language so it is all dubbed and the content is not as new as US versions or UK versions. Google Play recently gave away Gravity in Spain.. cool I thought, until I realized it was dubbed in Spanish only. And people wonder why Spain is a pirate hotbed..

And lets not forget... Linux, the software that runs most of the internet... European.
 
http://www.statistik-bw.de/Pressemitt/2014408.pdf

Just one photo.


On another issue, unrelated to that pdf:
I'd be interested to see how the EU stacks up against the rest of the world.

In my opinion, we're pretty bad in the IT and software tech field and also don't really come ahead in electronics and electronic components/consumer electronics... but we're good in machine industry, robotics, medical tech, and a few more. But I would like to see a world wide statistic with all other countries in it.

Awww yeah! Bavaria #2!! I've noticed it BIG time since moving here a few years back. Bavaria is very, very oriented towards engineering and innovation.
 
http://www.statistik-bw.de/Pressemitt/2014408.pdf

Just one photo.


On another issue, unrelated to that pdf:
I'd be interested to see how the EU stacks up against the rest of the world.

In my opinion, we're pretty bad in the IT and software tech field and also don't really come ahead in electronics and electronic components/consumer electronics... but we're good in machine industry, robotics, medical tech, and a few more. But I would like to see a world wide statistic with all other countries in it.

The index does not seem to include financial innovation, as London is not deep blue on the map. Who did the Index? I cannot read it in the picture.
 
Awww yeah! Bavaria #2!! I've noticed it BIG time since moving here a few years back. Bavaria is very, very oriented towards engineering and innovation.

What is interesting was the trouble Siemens AG has had since losing its quasi monopolies with German government and can no longer as easily employ corruption in sales acquisition. They have never really recuperated.
 
Well Europe

And lets not forget... Linux, the software that runs most of the internet... European.
Had to cut down ur comment.

Yes, Europe has big brands. And when was the last time they were at the forefront of technology for an extended period of time?
Washing machines, sure.
TVs? Samsung is super far ahead compared to everyone else. Same for monitors. And other stuff.

Nokia still holds patents but it's pretty much dead at this point.

I know about SAP. You know what it's most marketable software is? management software for the managers bizibodies. Microsoft makes the software the makes the software.
I haven't heard of SAP making a revolution in the tech world. They're big, but they're trailing.

Amazon is not an European company.

And there you hit the nail on the head with Spotify. Yes. I like their service. And yes, it's good. And yes, it's because we have bad digital laws. And so does Spain and everyone. Guess what else Spain won't have soon? Google. It's gonna pull their network in Spain and not publish any websites with spanish domain names.


As for Linux, you know what Linux is useful for in the real world? Nothing of value. You need 1 linux enthusiast hippie locked in the cage for multiple companies to use and abuse to set up and fix their servers.
When was the last time something related to linux made a game changing impact on the development market? Apache? Thanks and goodnight.
Android, windows, iOS and macOS, all american.

Look. It's not me saying it, it's the tech world. And everyone knows it. Trust me, I would like it to not be so. But the reality is that if you say you worked in San Francisco, you're automatically worth 5x more than you are if you didn't. This is just the reality of the world. So if I go to San Francisco tomorrow, work there for a year, come back, I'm gonna get all the jobs I would ever want, way above my experience years. That's how much that place is worth on your resume. Draw your own conclusions. in fact, there is just 1 conclusion to draw: we're behind. As much as we in the EU would like to think we're not, in the IT world, the USA comes #1 and the next 10 spots are open until we or Japan comes in.
 
Awww yeah! Bavaria #2!! I've noticed it BIG time since moving here a few years back. Bavaria is very, very oriented towards engineering and innovation.

Yes, but you have to admit, the US is better.
Continental, GE, ah... National Instruments, Texas Instruments, all the aviation companies in the USA. Tesla.

In between the EU and the USA, I think it's safe to say that the USA takes the cake in engineering innovation. At least that's my experience. but you're a professional in the field of engineering, I'm in IT, so you would know better, but that's what I am getting just by watching the world.
 
The index does not seem to include financial innovation, as London is not deep blue on the map. Who did the Index? I cannot read it in the picture.
Der Statistische Landesamt in Baden-Württemberg (The Statistical Office of Baden-Württemberg)
 
Yes, but you have to admit, the US is better.
Continental, GE, ah... National Instruments, Texas Instruments, all the aviation companies in the USA. Tesla.

In between the EU and the USA, I think it's safe to say that the USA takes the cake in engineering innovation. At least that's my experience. but you're a professional in the field of engineering, I'm in IT, so you would know better, but that's what I am getting just by watching the world.

I don't know, I can't really say based on my subjective experiences. I would say that Germany as a whole is definitely not better at innovation than the US, but I think Bavaria is better than just about any US state individually. I feel like I'm in an engineer's paradise.

The index does not seem to include financial innovation, as London is not deep blue on the map. Who did the Index? I cannot read it in the picture.

LOL! Financial innovation! They're innovating new ways to **** everyone.
 
Had to cut down ur comment.

Yes, Europe has big brands. And when was the last time they were at the forefront of technology for an extended period of time?
Washing machines, sure.
TVs? Samsung is super far ahead compared to everyone else. Same for monitors. And other stuff.

At least Europe has TV producers.. the US lost its last one decades ago... it was called Zenith.

Nokia still holds patents but it's pretty much dead at this point.

Hardly. It is one of the big companies in wireless telecommunications equipment along with Ericsson of Sweden. You just know Nokia from its phone division, but Nokia is much more than that. You know they are the biggest map software producers in the world right?

I know about SAP. You know what it's most marketable software is? management software for the managers bizibodies. Microsoft makes the software the makes the software.
I haven't heard of SAP making a revolution in the tech world. They're big, but they're trailing.

LOL sure.

And there you hit the nail on the head with Spotify. Yes. I like their service. And yes, it's good. And yes, it's because we have bad digital laws. And so does Spain and everyone. Guess what else Spain won't have soon? Google. It's gonna pull their network in Spain and not publish any websites with spanish domain names.

No Spain will have google.. they just wont have the news part where Google basically steals from other websites. But again it comes down to copywrite laws...

As for Linux, you know what Linux is useful for in the real world? Nothing of value. You need 1 linux enthusiast hippie locked in the cage for multiple companies to use and abuse to set up and fix their servers.

You do realize we are most likely on a Linux server? That your router runs Linux? your Smarttv.. guess what it runs? And so on?

When was the last time something related to linux made a game changing impact on the development market? Apache? Thanks and goodnight.
Android, windows, iOS and macOS, all american.

You cant be serious.. Linux is the backbone of the freaking internet and none of those above would be anything if it was not for Linux.

Look. It's not me saying it, it's the tech world. And everyone knows it. Trust me, I would like it to not be so. But the reality is that if you say you worked in San Francisco, you're automatically worth 5x more than you are if you didn't. This is just the reality of the world. So if I go to San Francisco tomorrow, work there for a year, come back, I'm gonna get all the jobs I would ever want, way above my experience years. That's how much that place is worth on your resume. Draw your own conclusions. in fact, there is just 1 conclusion to draw: we're behind. As much as we in the EU would like to think we're not, in the IT world, the USA comes #1 and the next 10 spots are open until we or Japan comes in.

You have not read what I wrote then. Market size matters. The US is/was 300 million consumers, who love to spend. Europe is 50 countries with 40+ languages and various smaller size of population with no coordination or single market. It is a no brainer why so many patents and companies are coming out of the US and why that is slowly switching to China.

Lets put it this way.. you want to start up a tech company and have a great idea. Where would you do that.. in a small country with few potential customers or in the largest markets in the world? Hell even language comes into the fold as well. Okay start up a company for the 88 million Germans or the 400+ million English speaking consumers? Only thing that might make some sense is starting up a company targeting the large Spanish speaking populations but they have low buying power relative to the English speaking world.

Why is innovation moving to China? Size of market. There is more in the middle class in China, than there are Americans. So it is a no brainer in starting up a company there. Why do you think Alibaba is so big?

Europe has and always has had a massive handicap even with the common market, as the market aint as "common" as it should be when it comes to patents and copywrite. It is holding us back and it has nothing to do with Europe or European countries not being innovative, but has to do with our 28 different patent systems and copywrite systems and lacking a common market in this area. Much of our innovative power is being drained to the US and now China because of this.

If we had a unified patent and copywrite system in Europe, then the only thing holding us back would be language .. a simple thing to overcome... and we would dwarf the American market in customers... this would slow down the drain if not stop it all together.
 
At least Europe has TV producers.. the US lost its last one decades ago... it was called Zenith.
I'm not discounting that, but that's not where the big bux in innovation happens.

Hardly. It is one of the big companies in wireless telecommunications equipment along with Ericsson of Sweden. You just know Nokia from its phone division, but Nokia is much more than that. You know they are the biggest map software producers in the world right?
Granted, but THE market for the past 5 years was smartphones, and where was Nokia? dicking about with microsoft for a windows phone. In this boom of smartphones for the past 5 years Nokia got exactly 0 of the market. Well, I don't know for sure how much it got but it may as well be 0.

LOL sure.
Ha ha. I never worked with a SAP product as professional developer in my entire life. Nor has anyone I know that is an IT professional.

No Spain will have google.. they just wont have the news part where Google basically steals from other websites. But again it comes down to copywrite laws...
It won't exist for Google. You won't be able to find spanish websites from spain in the spanish domain name if I read the story correctly. That's why I said it own't have google.

You do realize we are most likely on a Linux server? That your router runs Linux? your Smarttv.. guess what it runs? And so on?
I do, but where is the money for more innovation in linux? Innovation, money, more innovation, more apps, more software, more money, more innovation, the endless cycle. It doesn't exist in Linux.

You cant be serious.. Linux is the backbone of the freaking internet and none of those above would be anything if it was not for Linux.
Where's the money? It's free, there is no money. There are OS based on Linux, it's true. And some may cost money. But how much are they in the margin for? What market do they have? They don't. That's the point. The problem with Linux is that there is no company that makes linux software that makes money to spurr innovation. And linux, because it's free, is pretty hard to not have competition if someone does figure out how to make money.


You have not read what I wrote then. Market size matters. The US is/was 300 million consumers, who love to spend. Europe is 50 countries with 40+ languages and various smaller size of population with no coordination or single market. It is a no brainer why so many patents and companies are coming out of the US and why that is slowly switching to China.
Well, debatable how fast that switch is happening, and yes, I am aware of that. I'm not arguing why the US is ahead, I'm just saying it is.


Lets put it this way.. you want to start up a tech company and have a great idea. Where would you do that.. in a small country with few potential customers or in the largest markets in the world? Hell even language comes into the fold as well. Okay start up a company for the 88 million Germans or the 400+ million English speaking consumers? Only thing that might make some sense is starting up a company targeting the large Spanish speaking populations but they have low buying power relative to the English speaking world.
Again, not arguing why we're behind, I'm saying that we are. And the US is ahead, way ahead.
Why is innovation moving to China? Size of market. There is more in the middle class in China, than there are Americans. So it is a no brainer in starting up a company there. Why do you think Alibaba is so big?
Alibaba is chinesse emag. hardly innovative. And innovation isn't moving to China. Production is. Innovation is what the chinesse are mostly doing for themselves, companies like Lenovo. Don't get me wrong, they're good, but most R&D from X country stays in X country or countries that have strong laws protecting intellectual property. I.e not China.
Europe has and always has had a massive handicap even with the common market, as the market aint as "common" as it should be when it comes to patents and copywrite. It is holding us back and it has nothing to do with Europe or European countries not being innovative, but has to do with our 28 different patent systems and copywrite systems and lacking a common market in this area. Much of our innovative power is being drained to the US and now China because of this.

If we had a unified patent and copywrite system in Europe, then the only thing holding us back would be language .. a simple thing to overcome... and we would dwarf the American market in customers... this would slow down the drain if not stop it all together.

Don't care why the US is ahead, it's just that it is. There are a lot of factors why it is but it is. And in certain fields, the EU is very far behind.
 
At least Europe has TV producers.. the US lost its last one decades ago... it was called Zenith.



Hardly. It is one of the big companies in wireless telecommunications equipment along with Ericsson of Sweden. You just know Nokia from its phone division, but Nokia is much more than that. You know they are the biggest map software producers in the world right?



LOL sure.



No Spain will have google.. they just wont have the news part where Google basically steals from other websites. But again it comes down to copywrite laws...



You do realize we are most likely on a Linux server? That your router runs Linux? your Smarttv.. guess what it runs? And so on?



You cant be serious.. Linux is the backbone of the freaking internet and none of those above would be anything if it was not for Linux.



You have not read what I wrote then. Market size matters. The US is/was 300 million consumers, who love to spend. Europe is 50 countries with 40+ languages and various smaller size of population with no coordination or single market. It is a no brainer why so many patents and companies are coming out of the US and why that is slowly switching to China.

Lets put it this way.. you want to start up a tech company and have a great idea. Where would you do that.. in a small country with few potential customers or in the largest markets in the world? Hell even language comes into the fold as well. Okay start up a company for the 88 million Germans or the 400+ million English speaking consumers? Only thing that might make some sense is starting up a company targeting the large Spanish speaking populations but they have low buying power relative to the English speaking world.

Why is innovation moving to China? Size of market. There is more in the middle class in China, than there are Americans. So it is a no brainer in starting up a company there. Why do you think Alibaba is so big?

Europe has and always has had a massive handicap even with the common market, as the market aint as "common" as it should be when it comes to patents and copywrite. It is holding us back and it has nothing to do with Europe or European countries not being innovative, but has to do with our 28 different patent systems and copywrite systems and lacking a common market in this area. Much of our innovative power is being drained to the US and now China because of this.

If we had a unified patent and copywrite system in Europe, then the only thing holding us back would be language .. a simple thing to overcome... and we would dwarf the American market in customers... this would slow down the drain if not stop it all together.

If reality were differentEuroland wouldn't be in such a mess, I guess.
 
Granted, but THE market for the past 5 years was smartphones, and where was Nokia? dicking about with microsoft for a windows phone. In this boom of smartphones for the past 5 years Nokia got exactly 0 of the market. Well, I don't know for sure how much it got but it may as well be 0.

Yes but who invented the freaking smartphone? Nokia with the Nokia 9000. Problem was that they did not follow through with touch screen technology.

Ha ha. I never worked with a SAP product as professional developer in my entire life. Nor has anyone I know that is an IT professional.

In other words you dont really know what SAP is.

It won't exist for Google. You won't be able to find spanish websites from spain in the spanish domain name if I read the story correctly. That's why I said it own't have google.

Incorrect.

Google News to be shut down in Spain ahead of new law | PCWorld

I do, but where is the money for more innovation in linux? Innovation, money, more innovation, more apps, more software, more money, more innovation, the endless cycle. It doesn't exist in Linux.

And?

Where's the money? It's free, there is no money. There are OS based on Linux, it's true. And some may cost money. But how much are they in the margin for? What market do they have? They don't. That's the point. The problem with Linux is that there is no company that makes linux software that makes money to spurr innovation. And linux, because it's free, is pretty hard to not have competition if someone does figure out how to make money.

Again and? Your claim was that there was no tech companies or tech out of Europe.. you were wrong. Hell Europe invented the freaking world wide web for **** sake.

Well, debatable how fast that switch is happening, and yes, I am aware of that. I'm not arguing why the US is ahead, I'm just saying it is.

Of course it is ahead, it has always been ahead... bigger population and more money.

Again, not arguing why we're behind, I'm saying that we are. And the US is ahead, way ahead.

And again, not something new.. it has been like that since WW2 when the US started to uses its political and military might to suck to it technology and knowledge. That is why German scientists and engineers were given citizenship in the US after the war. Why do you think that the inventor of the jet engine went from domination to being obliterated by the US within 2 decades? Money and population... and lots of dirty tricks of course :)

Alibaba is chinesse emag. hardly innovative.

LOL! Alibaba is the biggest website on the planet selling goods. It dwarfs Amazon and unlike Amazon it is growing fast.. very fast. And its only market is China.. just think when it moves abroad?

And innovation isn't moving to China. Production is. Innovation is what the chinesse are mostly doing for themselves, companies like Lenovo. Don't get me wrong, they're good, but most R&D from X country stays in X country or countries that have strong laws protecting intellectual property. I.e not China.

Innovation is moving to China.. patent applications have exploded there the last 10 years. You are deluded if you think this is not happening. The US is losing innovation power to China and yes even Europe. And production is actually moving out of China and back to Europe and US or to India and elsewhere. It has just started but it is happening. And R&D goes where there is money, not strong laws protecting intellectual property... since they dont really exist. Look again on the Jet engine and what happened there... how US companies "borrowed" technology from the British and drove them out of business.

And of course China is innovating for it self.. just as the US is doing. That is part of the problem. The US companies innovate for the US only, but also block innovation in Europe.

Don't care why the US is ahead, it's just that it is. There are a lot of factors why it is but it is. And in certain fields, the EU is very far behind.

And I have stated why it is behind and how long it has been behind. Bitching about it wont help, especially if you are an Euroskeptic like you.. only way we can "beat" the US on innovation is by having unified markets and rules in this area but there is a lot of push back from industry and certain political factions in Europe for some reason..
 
Yes but who invented the freaking smartphone? Nokia with the Nokia 9000. Problem was that they did not follow through with touch screen technology.



In other words you dont really know what SAP is.

Incorrect.

Google News to be shut down in Spain ahead of new law | PCWorld

And?

Again and? Your claim was that there was no tech companies or tech out of Europe.. you were wrong. Hell Europe invented the freaking world wide web for **** sake.

Of course it is ahead, it has always been ahead... bigger population and more money.

And again, not something new.. it has been like that since WW2 when the US started to uses its political and military might to suck to it technology and knowledge. That is why German scientists and engineers were given citizenship in the US after the war. Why do you think that the inventor of the jet engine went from domination to being obliterated by the US within 2 decades? Money and population... and lots of dirty tricks of course :)



LOL! Alibaba is the biggest website on the planet selling goods. It dwarfs Amazon and unlike Amazon it is growing fast.. very fast. And its only market is China.. just think when it moves abroad?



Innovation is moving to China.. patent applications have exploded there the last 10 years. You are deluded if you think this is not happening. The US is losing innovation power to China and yes even Europe. And production is actually moving out of China and back to Europe and US or to India and elsewhere. It has just started but it is happening. And R&D goes where there is money, not strong laws protecting intellectual property... since they dont really exist. Look again on the Jet engine and what happened there... how US companies "borrowed" technology from the British and drove them out of business.

And of course China is innovating for it self.. just as the US is doing. That is part of the problem. The US companies innovate for the US only, but also block innovation in Europe.



And I have stated why it is behind and how long it has been behind. Bitching about it wont help, especially if you are an Euroskeptic like you.. only way we can "beat" the US on innovation is by having unified markets and rules in this area but there is a lot of push back from industry and certain political factions in Europe for some reason..

Ok. So I think there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Believe what you will for whichever reasons you choose to have in regards to innovation and stuff.
 
Ok. So I think there is no point in continuing this discussion.

Believe what you will for whichever reasons you choose to have in regards to innovation and stuff.

Fine, but remember this.. for innovation to exist you need to meet a few conditions.

1) Vision.. Europe does not lack in that at all. Hell historically we "innovated" far far far more than the US.

2) Money.. To get innovation off the ground, you need money. Access to money is limited. One of the limitations is that the "money men" need to see if there is a possible market for said innovation.

3) Market. US has 310 million consumers.. places like the UK has "only" 66 million consumers. So again the US will win in most cases alone due to number of consumers. Another reason is lets say a French guy has an idea... where does he push his vision? In France or in the US? Think language. An app would have a bigger impact if it was in French or English? Now if he goes English, then that "innovation" will be registered as innovation in the US.. not France. If he goes France, his possible market size is highly limited and his idea can easily be stolen.. err borrowed by others and he gets nothing.
 
Fine, but remember this.. for innovation to exist you need to meet a few conditions.

1) Vision.. Europe does not lack in that at all. Hell historically we "innovated" far far far more than the US.
Are you sure about that? Merkel just came out against net neutrality. I'm pretty sure that's a vision of some sort but it's the wrong one. Obama came out FOR net neutrality. Whatever he means by it or what he wants that to mean is debatable and the future is uncertain, but he does like the principle at least and is willing to publicly put his power behind upholding it.

Doesn't matter. I know its harsh but what was doesn't matter. Nobody cares. It's irrelevant. in this field, the tech field, what was 10 years ago is obsolete. What was 30 years ago is irrelevant. Who makes the next big thing TODAY is what matters. The historical precedence doesn't matter. History is good in the rest of the world, but in the real world of technology... it's not useful except maybe as an idea bucket. Who made what doesn't matter.


2) Money.. To get innovation off the ground, you need money. Access to money is limited. One of the limitations is that the "money men" need to see if there is a possible market for said innovation.
Funny you should say this, this is exactly the conversation I had with my brother 2 days ago when he said that the worse thing that happened to him was to be born in Romania because there is no way to make something big in this country. There is nobody you go to if you have an idea. As opposed to america where even if you were born in the worst place in america, doesn't matter, you're already there and that means that if you have at least some intelligence, you're gonna make it. Because you're already american and you're already in america.

3) Market. US has 310 million consumers.. places like the UK has "only" 66 million consumers. So again the US will win in most cases alone due to number of consumers. Another reason is lets say a French guy has an idea... where does he push his vision? In France or in the US? Think language. An app would have a bigger impact if it was in French or English? Now if he goes English, then that "innovation" will be registered as innovation in the US.. not France. If he goes France, his possible market size is highly limited and his idea can easily be stolen.. err borrowed by others and he gets nothing.
It's not just 310 mil consumers, it's 7bil consumers who buy stuff from people who invent it in the USA. And no, the french example is wrong. If he goes english, it's still a french invention if he makes it in france. Now an "app" that is just like, a game or a timer or something, isn't "innovation". It's consumer product. Innovation would be making an app that can use the camera to take a photo of your eye and see if you have anemia. And you know who did that? 2 americans (asian americans) went and got sponsored by Bill ****ing Gates to make it.
 
Are you sure about that? Merkel just came out against net neutrality. I'm pretty sure that's a vision of some sort but it's the wrong one.

Yes she did, and most people are confused on why she did that, considering she has the opposite policies in general.

Obama came out FOR net neutrality. Whatever he means by it or what he wants that to mean is debatable and the future is uncertain, but he does like the principle at least and is willing to publicly put his power behind upholding it.

Yes he did, but he is going to lose that one and you know it. The forces of corporate evil is far stronger in the US than in Europe, and they will get that through Congress very soon.

Doesn't matter. I know its harsh but what was doesn't matter. Nobody cares. It's irrelevant. in this field, the tech field, what was 10 years ago is obsolete. What was 30 years ago is irrelevant. Who makes the next big thing TODAY is what matters. The historical precedence doesn't matter. History is good in the rest of the world, but in the real world of technology... it's not useful except maybe as an idea bucket. Who made what doesn't matter.

History explains everything when we are talking about technology. Regulations, monopolies, laws and so on all influence innovation and Europe like it or not, has been far far far behind on that until very recently and is in many ways still behind.

Funny you should say this, this is exactly the conversation I had with my brother 2 days ago when he said that the worse thing that happened to him was to be born in Romania because there is no way to make something big in this country. There is nobody you go to if you have an idea. As opposed to america where even if you were born in the worst place in america, doesn't matter, you're already there and that means that if you have at least some intelligence, you're gonna make it. Because you're already american and you're already in america.

That is not true either. It is a myth that it is easier to "make it" in the US vs other countries. Historically (something you dismiss) it might be true, but today not really. It has not been like that for decades.

It's not just 310 mil consumers, it's 7bil consumers who buy stuff from people who invent it in the USA. And no, the french example is wrong. If he goes english, it's still a french invention if he makes it in france.

No it aint lol. Does that mean it was the Germans who got to the moon first? Because the technology used to get there was German, not American.

Now an "app" that is just like, a game or a timer or something, isn't "innovation". It's consumer product. Innovation would be making an app that can use the camera to take a photo of your eye and see if you have anemia. And you know who did that? 2 americans (asian americans) went and got sponsored by Bill ****ing Gates to make it.

And how is that innovation? The only reason that they could do that, is because of the camera optic technology... most likely coming out of Asia or Europe.

You dont seem to understand that a lot of "innovation" out of the US, is in fact people from Asia and Europe who do their innovating based in the US. You even stated it above.. 2 "Asian Americans".. first or second generation? America has a very sneaky tendency to claim ownership of other peoples work and has done so for generations. Eisenstein was German, but most think he was American because he became a citizen. He got his nobel as German not as an American. His ground breaking work was done as a German not as an American. The Manhattan project was done by in large non-Americans and the theories and techniques used was non-American. The jet engine that revolutionized the modern military... British, not American. The car.. German, not American. The list goes on and on... including the computer!
 
Yes she did, and most people are confused on why she did that, considering she has the opposite policies in general.
Yes, exactly, I'm confused too. But she did, and that's what is important.
Yes he did, but he is going to lose that one and you know it. The forces of corporate evil is far stronger in the US than in Europe, and they will get that through Congress very soon.
Doubtful. Even if the bill makes it on the floor of Congress, the only way it will be passed is if people don't understand how to talk to Congress. All the stupid leftist hippies will come out saying "Oh, free speech and what naught, evil corporate america maan, not cool". When in fact, the only correct way to go about it would be "Passing this bill will make America poorer and stop us from being rich". And bam, like that, you convinced all Congress to not just dismiss any such hypothetical bill but also strengthen net neutrality.

History explains everything when we are talking about technology. Regulations, monopolies, laws and so on all influence innovation and Europe like it or not, has been far far far behind on that until very recently and is in many ways still behind.
... As if laws matter to any great degree. They have a minimal impact in the real world of technology. They have an impact on how much money will be funneled into this world because it models the market, but laws themselves don't dictate what gets done. There are kids in america doing freaking bioengineering in their homes, not corporate america, random young men who just wanna check things out. The law is irrelevant.


That is not true either. It is a myth that it is easier to "make it" in the US vs other countries. Historically (something you dismiss) it might be true, but today not really. It has not been like that for decades.
Again, historically doesn't matter except for inspiration. And no, it is that way today and it's been this way for decades.


No it aint lol. Does that mean it was the Germans who got to the moon first? Because the technology used to get there was German, not American.
... Just because germans were involved in the process doesn't make it German, it makes it american. America got to the moon, period. It's american.

And how is that innovation?
Again, doesn't matter who does what, if he's native american, american american, asian-american, afroamerican, whatever. It's done in America by americans or people who want to be americans because they wanna be in America.

Elon Musk is not born in america, he was born in south africa. But he left that crappy little country for... what country? America. Why didn't he come to Europe? Europe is far more pro-green energy than the USA. It's far more interested in low consumption and electric vehicles. Why didn't he come here? because Europe is not where IT'S AT. America is where IT'S AT. Where stuff gets done and where the tech world prospers and thrives. The tech that makes all the money and pushes for more innovation. 4k streaming -> Google/Youtube. Where are these companies born in? America. In fact, streaming video as a concept, who made it big? Twitch, netflix, these companies. Where do they exist? america.
Yes, yes, spotify is swedish and it's doing music streaming and that's nice, but they didn't make the market. Netflix made the market. Hulu made the market. They're just using streaming tech to make a market for songs.

Or even a simpler example. Audible. A simple concept, reading out loud... taken and made into a business that makes money and help people. Every culture that had written language had the concept of "reading out loud to someone" but it's audible to made that simple real life concept into a tech business and now there is a market for it. And that makes money and that spurrs more innovation.

You and I can't seem to understand one another. It's like... you keep splitting hairs but that's not what I am discussing. I'm saying that the next BIG THING that's going to make money and be innovative is going to be made in America. And that's the point. That's all that matters.

//cut down for size
 
... As if laws matter to any great degree. The law is irrelevant.

Law is irrelevant.. and yet we dont have Netflix or netflix like services in most of Europe because of it. Sweden had Spotify for years before Denmark, and the US.. what prevents these companies from expanding? Laws and regulations and the ability of companies to discriminate based on out of date borders. So yes laws matter a lot, especially when companies use laws to hamper innovation.... Spotify is a classic case.

Again, historically doesn't matter except for inspiration. And no, it is that way today and it's been this way for decades.

Again history matters a lot. Your refusal to see this is a problem. History matters because the laws and rules that prevent innovation today in Europe is due to history and the lack of will to tackle those innovation hampering laws. Copywrite laws are stuck in the dark ages, and prevent innovation. Patent laws are stuck in the dark ages and prevent innovation. Borders are a problem when it comes to innovation, especially from smaller countries. For innovation to work, you need a population willing to buy the product. That is far easier in the US, than it is in Europe where we have borders and languages working against such things.

... Just because germans were involved in the process doesn't make it German, it makes it american. America got to the moon, period. It's american.

On a German designed rocket with theories and technology that was designed and thought off by non-Americans.

Again, doesn't matter who does what, if he's native american, american american, asian-american, afroamerican, whatever. It's done in America by americans or people who want to be americans because they wanna be in America.

LOL so ignorant on the realities of life.

Elon Musk is not born in america, he was born in south africa.

Yes born under what kind of South Africa?

You simply ignore the facts in your anti-Europe bull****. Did you ever read up on him? He left South Africa to avoid military service. He became Canadian before he became American, because his mother is Canadian. Now why did he start Tesla in the US? Because Americans have an almost sexual fetish for cars. Europeans see cars as a tool, not as a piece of the family. That alone is a great reason to start there. Secondly getting funding to such things is easier in the US than in Europe were we are more conservative.. money wise. And then we are back to potential market... If I were to start a new car company then I would start it in the US or China.. never Europe... because Europeans use cars as tools, not as a fashion statement.

4k streaming -> Google/Youtube. Where are these companies born in? America. In fact, streaming video as a concept, who made it big? Twitch, netflix, these companies. Where do they exist? america.

The internet started in America, so it is no wonder that a thing like Google started there. Again it comes down to market size. But the world wide web started where btw... Europe. Now Netflix.. there is a very good reason for Netflix to start in the US and not in Europe or elsewhere. Copywrite. Most major film and tv shows people want to watch come out of the US. Hence it is far easier to start a Netflix type system there than it is in Europe where you have to negotiate copywrite deals 50+ times instead of one. Take your favourite TV show.. it has been sold exclusively to one tv channel in your country.. this channel has exclusive rights. Hence getting it on your "netflix like" service is next to impossible. Not so in the US, where the rights holders are in the country it self. That is why Netflix UK, DK, DE and so on are crap services compared to their US mother service.

Yes, yes, spotify is swedish and it's doing music streaming and that's nice, but they didn't make the market. Netflix made the market. Hulu made the market. They're just using streaming tech to make a market for songs.

What? LOL okay now you have lost it. Hulu and Netflix are video, Spotify is music. Spotify started in 2008 in Sweden. Netflix started its streaming movie services in late 2007. Hulu started it services in late 2007 with next to no content and was only later on that it grew in content as more networks signed up. No one streamed on demand music before Spotify.

You and I can't seem to understand one another. It's like... you keep splitting hairs but that's not what I am discussing. I'm saying that the next BIG THING that's going to make money and be innovative is going to be made in America. And that's the point. That's all that matters.

And you dont seem to understand that it is because of the size of a potential market that this might happen. I will say that I expect the "next big thing" to come out of China and not the US.
 
Law is irrelevant..

[...]
And you dont seem to understand that it is because of the size of a potential market that this might happen. I will say that I expect the "next big thing" to come out of China and not the US.


You can continue to believe what you wish to believe. I'm not interested in discussing this any further, I think I already stated this and you pulled me back into the topic.
I look at the real world of technology and drew my conclusions.... you can draw your conclusions from wherever. History or laws or bureaucracy or the law or whatever. Or think that we're better or whatever because europeans went to america to make some cool stuff some time ago and still go. I see that last part, the migration part, especially the recent one, as proof of what I am stating not what you are stating. But anyway.

I'm not saying that Europe doesn't have stuff going for it. We do but we're not "big" in that world. We're big economically because reasons. We're not the innovation powerhouse of the world. And no, china isn't either. And neither is japan or south korea. It's the USA. We're 2nd, I'll grant you that, but it's a distant second. Feel free to disagree, I can't be bothered arguing this position anymore because you will never accept it no matter what. There is no clear cut statistic that I can display, there are just things that I posted about or others that I could post about. It is what it is.
 
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