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EU Countries To Send Fighter Jets To Ukraine

Juin said:
Thanks. I am totally lost putting in perspective how each piece of new information fits in the larger scheme of things. It can get confusing to us civilians. Like the close to 200,000 force Putin amassed was portrayed in the media as gargantuan. Then attention panned to Ukraine, and it turned out Ukraine is actually a huge country, posing great challenges; then the majority expert military opinion shifted to the invading force rather insufficient for the task.
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A lot of what both sides in the conflict are saying can be taken with a grain of salt. The included body counts, tanks and armored vehicles taken out etc. For all we know Ukraine is taking a serious licking but you wouldn't know it by listening to the Ukraines which is standard operation procedure. But of course the Russians do the same thing.

I'm rooting for the Ukraines but also feel bad for the Russian troops that are being asked to die for a sociopathic leader.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Yes this is all very obvious. However we don't know how many pilots they have in their reserves that are trained.
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This is true. But the likely aircraft that they are trained up on are Russian. EU and US aircraft are completely foreign systems to them.
The previous Russian satellite nations who have such aircraft might be able to provide them. At least it would be familiar equipment.
 
eohrnberger said:
One could only hope it turns out that way. He certainly deserves that Karma.
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Even if Putin succeeds in beating Ukraine into defeat I can't see him easily occupying that country especially a country that size. A tank running full speed across that country would take 12 hours to reach the other end. And of course would eat up a lot fuel. There would be endless support of guerrilla warfare from around the world that would harass the occupiers to no end. I'm flabbergasted that Putin could be so short sighted. I knew he was a lot of things but stupid wasn't one of them. But alas this whole invasion was a stupid blunder.
 
eohrnberger said:
This is true. But the likely aircraft that they are trained up on are Russian. EU and US aircraft are completely foreign systems to them.
The previous Russian satellite nations who have such aircraft might be able to provide them. At least it would be familiar equipment.
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You must of missed that. I think it was said these planes will be from former Russian satellite nations.
 
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EnigmaO01 said:
Even if Putin succeeds in beating Ukraine into defeat I can't see him easily occupying that country especially a country that size. A tank running full speed across that country would take 12 hours to reach the other end. And of course would eat up a lot fuel. There would be endless support of guerrilla warfare from around the world that would harass the occupiers to no end. I'm flabbergasted that Putin could be so short sighted. I knew he was a lot of things but stupid wasn't one of them. But alas this whole invasion was a stupid blunder.
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Not much here to disagree with. A stupid blunder, yeah, seems to be turning out that way. Putin seems to have grossly underestimated the Ukrainian's resolve against what he wanted and what he thought.

The Western policy thinkers should be thinking ahead at this point, plan for what sort of concessions from Putin and Russia they might gain. Not meaningless climate change concessions, but real meaningful concessions, perhaps a cap on military size and equipment? They should let their imaginations run a little bit. Might be the West's chance to see how far they can push back in response to Putin's pushing this. Just an idea, but still, an appealing one.
 
TheParser said:
Wow!

That's great news.

As a fair-minded person, however, is the sending of armaments of any kind a de facto declaration of war against Russia?

Will the tyrant's paranoia go into overdrive?

If the Ukrainians are actually able to stop the invasion (highly unlikely though it be), would the tyrant lose all sense of proportion?

I know that the decent world is between a rock and a hard place.

So I guess it should send as much materiel as possible.
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No it is not a defacto war with Russia.

Ukraine is a sovereign state obtaining supplies. Russia has no legal right to stop it. And Russia knows its own Soviet History. Not only did Stalin supply all the aircraft to North Korea during the Korean war, not only did N.K. pilots fly out of RUSSIAN bases into N.K. for combat, but many of those pilots were also Russian military. In other words, American and Soviet flown aircraft engaged in combat for years...a secret held by the Soviets for years.

Had the allies had the courage and brains to be prepared, these planes would be sitting of the border ready for pickup, or even flown into combat by Ukrainians. It's time we play by their rules.

Alas, it looks to be too late to affect that 3-mile-long convoy. Were the USAF involved, it would become the new highway of death.
 
maxparrish said:
Alas, it looks to be too late to affect that 3-mile-long convoy. Were the USAF involved, it would become the new highway of death.
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It's never too late with a 3 mile long convoy. Fueling hilarity aside, every breakdown stops the whole show.

That's why people have been dividing large units into smaller corps on alternate roads since motor vehicles have been available.

The Russians are being very sloppy.
 
Hamish Howl said:
It's never too late with a 3 mile long convoy. Fueling hilarity aside, every breakdown stops the whole show.

That's why people have been dividing large units into smaller corps on alternate roads since motor vehicles have been available.

The Russians are being very sloppy.
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Good point. I wonder if there is any natural cover along that road to stage an ambush. My gosh, a handful of strikes on that road would turn it into the slog of the British in Operation Market Garden.

How I pray they can disrupt that force.

By the way, why haven't we heard of any tank battles? That is strange...all city fighting?
 
maxparrish said:
No it is not a defacto war with Russia.

Ukraine is a sovereign state obtaining supplies. Russia has no legal right to stop it. And Russia knows its own Soviet History. Not only did Stalin supply all the aircraft to North Korea during the Korean war, not only did N.K. pilots fly out of RUSSIAN bases into N.K. for combat, but many of those pilots were also Russian military. In other words, American and Soviet flown aircraft engaged in combat for years...a secret held by the Soviets for years.

Had the allies had the courage and brains to be prepared, these planes would be sitting of the border ready for pickup, or even flown into combat by Ukrainians. It's time we play by their rules.

Alas, it looks to be too late to affect that 3-mile-long convoy.
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maxparrish said:
Were the USAF involved, it would become the new highway of death.
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Exactly like Iraq's 'Highway of Death'.

But let's be honest here, that was a multi-national coalition of air forces, and not a single nation's air force. I don't think that the Ukrainian air force could have brought that much arms to bear on target in as short a time.

Doesn't mean the Russian forces didn't deserve such a 'delivery'.
 
eohrnberger said:
Kinda depends on how many Ukrainian fighter pilots the Russians shot down. Planes without trained and skilled pilots either sit on the tarmac or are shot down in short order.
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They claim they have pilots.
 
eohrnberger said:
Exactly like Iraq's 'Highway of Death'.

But let's be honest here, that was a multi-national coalition of air forces, and not a single nation's air force. I don't think that the Ukrainian air force could have brought that much arms to bear on target in as short a time.

Doesn't mean the Russian forces didn't deserve such a 'delivery'.
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I know. I've gotten quite emotional about this...it just pains me so much. It's hard not be frustrated over their not having the means to trash the Russian army, and army that we now know is far less prepared for fighting a serious military than we supposed.

I hope they start learning and teaching how to make IEDs , with a force this size they will be deep in kiev.
 
Gateman_Wen said:
They claim they have pilots.
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Fog of war and disinformation for the enemy? Maybe. We simply don't know, and neither do the Russians.

We also have reportage like this:

2 days agoUnconfirmed reports of an ace Ukrainian fighter pilot have gone viral, with social media users dubbing the fighter the "Ghost of Kyiv." Supposedly downing as many as six Russian planes in the first...​

An unconfirmed Ukrainian MiG-29 fighter pilot—dubbed the "Ghost of Kyiv" by social media users—has gone viral, with many claiming the flyer downed several Russian jets. Social media users on Friday...​

True or not? Hard to tell. What isn't hard to tell is that it buoys the spirits of the Ukrainians who are in the fight, and that is rather important, keeping the moral of the troops up, and as such, I'm all for it.

But don't get me wrong. I'm all for wishing and wanting that this is 100% true and factual, and actually, hoping that it's being rather under reported, rather than being over reported.
 
maxparrish said:
I know. I've gotten quite emotional about this...it just pains me so much. It's hard not be frustrated over their not having the means to trash the Russian army, and army that we now know is far less prepared for fighting a serious military than we supposed.

I hope they start learning and teaching how to make IEDs , with a force this size they will be deep in kiev.
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Malcom Nance said his sources in Ukraine say they've been building IED's and similar bombs for some time now in preparation. Sorry can't find the link.
 
Hamish Howl said:
It's never too late with a 3 mile long convoy. Fueling hilarity aside, every breakdown stops the whole show.

That's why people have been dividing large units into smaller corps on alternate roads since motor vehicles have been available.

The Russians are being very sloppy.
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Maybe Putin is getting really frustrated with his commanders and ordered them to send in everything but the kitchen sink to take out the city (sorry name of the escapes me at the moment).
 
eohrnberger said:
Fog of war and disinformation for the enemy? Maybe. We simply don't know, and neither do the Russians.

We also have reportage like this:

2 days agoUnconfirmed reports of an ace Ukrainian fighter pilot have gone viral, with social media users dubbing the fighter the "Ghost of Kyiv." Supposedly downing as many as six Russian planes in the first...​

An unconfirmed Ukrainian MiG-29 fighter pilot—dubbed the "Ghost of Kyiv" by social media users—has gone viral, with many claiming the flyer downed several Russian jets. Social media users on Friday...​

True or not? Hard to tell. What isn't hard to tell is that it buoys the spirits of the Ukrainians who are in the fight, and that is rather important, keeping the moral of the troops up, and as such, I'm all for it.

But don't get me wrong. I'm all for wishing and wanting that this is 100% true and factual, and actually, hoping that it's being rather under reported, rather than being over reported.
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Unlikely to be real, but a great morale builder.
 
The proposal is essentially sending Ukraine aircraft that their pilots are already trained on. I.E. Mig-29s (several NATO allies that were former Warsaw Pact countries have them).

Also as far as that 3km-long convoy goes, even if they got a couple more fighters it wouldn't necessarily be a highway of death situation. You can bet there's anti-air assets in those convoys - Buks, Pantsirs, Shilkas, so even a Su-25 wouldn't necessarily be able to take out that convoy with impunity.

Most of the vehicles there will have to be taken out with anti-armor assets (hopefully Javelins and NLAWs). Worst come to worst, the residents of Kyiv can put them molotovs to good use.
 
StillBallin75 said:
The proposal is essentially sending Ukraine aircraft that their pilots are already trained on. I.E. Mig-29s (several NATO allies that were former Warsaw Pact countries have them).

Also as far as that 3km-long convoy goes, even if they got a couple more fighters it wouldn't necessarily be a highway of death situation. You can bet there's anti-air assets in those convoys - Buks, Pantsirs, Shilkas, so even a Su-25 wouldn't necessarily be able to take out that convoy with impunity.

Most of the vehicles there will have to be taken out with anti-armor assets (hopefully Javelins and NLAWs). Worst come to worst, the residents of Kyiv can put them molotovs to good use.
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True, but I think at this point its a matter of just getting the road sufficiently targeted in spots to stop traffic. I ran across a video, btw, that is footage from a Ukranian drone takng out a mobile rocket launcher (I'd forgotten they purchased a bunch from Turkey).

MSN

www.msn.com
 
TheParser said:
Wow!

That's great news.

As a fair-minded person, however, is the sending of armaments of any kind a de facto declaration of war against Russia?

Will the tyrant's paranoia go into overdrive?

If the Ukrainians are actually able to stop the invasion (highly unlikely though it be), would the tyrant lose all sense of proportion?

I know that the decent world is between a rock and a hard place.

So I guess it should send as much materiel as possible.
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I'm sure Putin isn't pleased about the support being sent to Ukraine but in all honesty what can he do about it?

The sanctions are what I think we should be cautious about. My concern is if nobody will trade with them it drives them into the hands of China.
 
trouble13 said:
I'm sure Putin isn't pleased about the support being sent to Ukraine but in all honesty what can he do about it?

The sanctions are what I think we should be cautious about. My concern is if nobody will trade with them it drives them into the hands of China.
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...so?
 
trouble13 said:
I don't see Russia's economic health being reliant on China as a healthy thing for the rest of us.
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Russia itself is better off if they're integrated into the world economy. Isolating them is meant to put pressure on them to un**** themselves.
 
StillBallin75 said:
Russia itself is better off if they're integrated into the world economy. Isolating them is meant to put pressure on them to un**** themselves.
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If the world won't do business with them they will turn to whoever will.
 
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