Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and othe [W:508;687]

[Sparkles]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Well, you have yet to present any evidence that MOST people would lose their jobs if minimum wage was raised, aside from anecdotes. I'm not buying it.

I accept that. However I would mention that I have posted links to research that has shown repeatedly that what I say has happened in the past.

And of course, I would also cite the last 5 years. In 2006, the unemployment rate for the lowest income people, was pretty low honestly. And then in 2007, 2008 and 2009, they raised the minimum wage. What is the unemployment rate now? Pretty high.

And in states that have had higher minimum wages, like California, the unemployment at that lowest end has been high for years. Then you look at places like France, and they have had 20% unemployment rates for DECADES.

I accept you don't buy the argument. I accept that. You and me can still be friends. I'll still be nice to you, and you can still hate me. But... I kinda think I have given quite a bit of evidence for my position. You can still disagree! But... I really have given some support for what I believe even if you don't buy the support.

 

[Sparkles]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Try eating the printer and get back to me.

That isn't an answer. Try demanding $20 an hour to pick tomatoes and get back to me.

Notice how my response is about as valid, or in this case, as stupid as yours? If you want to have a discussion at the 5-year-old level of debate, go somewhere else. I'm here to talk to adult. If you are not one, please move on and spare the rest of us, ok?

 

[Sparkles]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Again, your "word" is not evidence of that.

Neither is yours, but that is why were here isn't it? To talk about what we think? Have I responded to all your statements with "Your 'word' is not evidence of that"? Again, I have provided evidence many times.

This is not true. There are plenty of apprenticeship jobs out there. As a matter of fact, it is a requirement for a lot of trades. These apprentices are paid much more than minimum wage as well.

Really? Where are they? The only apprenticeship positions I know of are in Union jobs or multi-level marketing jobs, and Union jobs are disappearing slowly.

Just for giggles, I punched in Apprenticeship into Criagslist, and I found 2. An Upholstery job starting off at $8 an hour, and Iron-workers Union had a single apprenticeship position. There were some Electrician Jobs listed, but I checked the ad, and it required your own tools, and your own truck, and you had to have previous experience. (I'm not sure how they considered that to be an "apprenticeship" but whatever)

So, are you suggesting slave wage labor? That we should be competing with . . . China's wages? Because unless we did that, those jobs are NOT coming back, unless the government offers some kind of incentives or subsidization to them.

I worked for minimum wage. Slaves can't move up from where they are. I'm getting paid more than double what I was on minimum wage.

There's no such thing as slave wages in a free economy. You don't HAVE to work for anyone. You can move up. You can work your way up. You can get promoted. Nearly everyone I knew from working at Wendy's back in high school, has moved up to better wage. My manager, is now a store manager. The grill cook, now is managing a Hertz-Rent-A-Car at the airport. One of the guys went into accounting. They all moved up!

How could they do that on slave wage labor? You say they are slaves! How can slaves now run their own stores, and have six figure incomes?!? (The Accountant has a 6 figure income, not the store managers. They are likely earning about $60K I would guess)

That is besides the point. The point is that if these CEOs weren't paid such exorbitant wages, other people lower on the rungs could be paid more, thereby reducing the income gap between them, the middle class and the poor, which wouldn't be a BAD thing.

Back to math.

The CEO of Walmart, Mike Duke, earned $17.8 Million dollars. Walmart employs 2.1 Million employees.

If Duke cut his salary completely, to zero, and gave all $17.8 Million dollars to the employees... it would be $8.47 per employee per year. That's 70¢ a month.

Are you seriously suggesting that minimum wage people getting a check for 70¢ a month, would somehow improve the income gap?

What you are saying is simply not true. If you collected all the money CEOs make, and give it out to all the workers, it's PENNIES. It's just pennies!

What will happen instead, is Good CEOs that grow the company, won't work for low wages. You'll end up with a crappy CEO, who will flush the company down the drain, and people will lose their jobs. Read WorldCom. Read Enron.

I don't know of anyone who teaches that lesson. :roll:

Is that a joke? I've heard that HUNDREDS of times. You really have never heard that? Never? I can't even begin to count the number of times I've heard that.

SOME people NEED to be given handouts. Do you honestly think everyone is capable of making a salary they can live off? You would be wrong. Anytime there is money coming from the government, it should ONLY be to help out the poor. Our government is overstepping its boundaries when it starts giving taxpayer monies to help out failing businesses.

Yes absolutely! Look, I mentioned above about the Grill Cook. The Grill Cook at the Wendy's where I worked, was a guy form Romania. There was some problems in Romania, and he packed up his kids, his wife, and came to America, with nothing. He barely knew English. Didn't have any education. Didn't have any degrees, or certifications, or anything. He had little money.

He walked to work, because he had no car. His wife walked to the store because she didn't have anything either. Their kids got second hand bikes, and rode to school on them.

This guy worked as a burger flipper for 2 to 3 years, flipping burgers for minimum wage. They lived off minimum wage. No they didn't have computers and internet, or TV, and air conditioning was opening the windows in the summer. They lived in a one bedroom apartment. Their two kids slept in the living room.

You can live on very little. It's a choice.

This guy worked hard. He was always on time. He always did what he was asked. He was always happy. Like I said before, he moved up and years later I met him working at the biggest Hertz Rent-a-Car in Columbus Ohio, the one right by the airport. He wasn't just working there, he was the manager of the entire store.

Now here's my problem. You are telling me, that a guy from Romania, who barely speaks English, who has no education, no training or skills, no money to get any education, can not only survive off minimum wage at Wendy's, but also move up over time to become a store manager of a lucrative business.........

But an America, with full education, somehow is incapable of doing what the uneducated foreign guy can?

No, I don't believe it. If that's true, then Americans are the most absolutely pathetic retarded fools on the planet. Foreign people with NOTHING can come to America and succeed, but Americans with all the advantages of being educated and raised here, can not? No! I'm sorry! That is far too unbelievable. I just simply don't buy it.

 

[ChrisL]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I accept that. However I would mention that I have posted links to research that has shown repeatedly that what I say has happened in the past.

In the past? In the past when? I haven't seen any. :shrug:

And of course, I would also cite the last 5 years. In 2006, the unemployment rate for the lowest income people, was pretty low honestly. And then in 2007, 2008 and 2009, they raised the minimum wage. What is the unemployment rate now? Pretty high.

Are you telling me that you think the economy has tanked because of a rise in MW? I don't think so.

And in states that have had higher minimum wages, like California, the unemployment at that lowest end has been high for years. Then you look at places like France, and they have had 20% unemployment rates for DECADES.

Again, I'm sure it has to do with more than just a raise of a couple of dollars in the MW. I think you're exaggerating.

I accept you don't buy the argument. I accept that. You and me can still be friends. I'll still be nice to you, and you can still hate me. But... I kinda think I have given quite a bit of evidence for my position. You can still disagree! But... I really have given some support for what I believe even if you don't buy the support.

Of course we can be friends. Don't be silly. Why would I hate you? But I would still like to see that evidence.

 

[ChrisL]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Neither is yours, but that is why were here isn't it? To talk about what we think? Have I responded to all your statements with "Your 'word' is not evidence of that"? Again, I have provided evidence many times.

Well, what page is it on? I honestly don't remember seeing any links from you. And I have provided at least 2 separate links.

Really? Where are they? The only apprenticeship positions I know of are in Union jobs or multi-level marketing jobs, and Union jobs are disappearing slowly. Just for giggles, I punched in Apprenticeship into Criagslist, and I found 2. An Upholstery job starting off at $8 an hour, and Iron-workers Union had a single apprenticeship position. There were some Electrician Jobs listed, but I checked the ad, and it required your own tools, and your own truck, and you had to have previous experience. (I'm not sure how they considered that to be an "apprenticeship" but whatever)

I don't think you can be a plumber, an electrician, a mason, etc., without being an apprentice first. I could be wrong, but that's what I've heard.

I worked for minimum wage. Slaves can't move up from where they are. I'm getting paid more than double what I was on minimum wage.

There's no such thing as slave wages in a free economy. You don't HAVE to work for anyone. You can move up. You can work your way up. You can get promoted. Nearly everyone I knew from working at Wendy's back in high school, has moved up to better wage. My manager, is now a store manager. The grill cook, now is managing a Hertz-Rent-A-Car at the airport. One of the guys went into accounting. They all moved up!

How could they do that on slave wage labor? You say they are slaves! How can slaves now run their own stores, and have six figure incomes?!? (The Accountant has a 6 figure income, not the store managers. They are likely earning about $60K I would guess)

If you leave MW where it is and don't raise it, that is no different from third world countries where they pay employees literally pennies a day for their labor. If you can't see how that is wrong, then I don't know what to say.

Back to math.

The CEO of Walmart, Mike Duke, earned $17.8 Million dollars. Walmart employs 2.1 Million employees.

If Duke cut his salary completely, to zero, and gave all $17.8 Million dollars to the employees... it would be $8.47 per employee per year. That's 70¢ a month.

Are you seriously suggesting that minimum wage people getting a check for 70¢ a month, would somehow improve the income gap?

What you are saying is simply not true. If you collected all the money CEOs make, and give it out to all the workers, it's PENNIES. It's just pennies!

This again? :roll: I hate math. I never said anything about divying up the CEOs salary. That is silly. I'm saying that every little bit helps.

What will happen instead, is Good CEOs that grow the company, won't work for low wages. You'll end up with a crappy CEO, who will flush the company down the drain, and people will lose their jobs. Read WorldCom. Read Enron.

I don't believe that. Not if the CEO truly cares about the company. There are still people out there like that you know.

Is that a joke? I've heard that HUNDREDS of times. You really have never heard that? Never? I can't even begin to count the number of times I've heard that.

I've heard it in a sarcastic sense.

Yes absolutely! Look, I mentioned above about the Grill Cook. The Grill Cook at the Wendy's where I worked, was a guy form Romania. There was some problems in Romania, and he packed up his kids, his wife, and came to America, with nothing. He barely knew English. Didn't have any education. Didn't have any degrees, or certifications, or anything. He had little money.

Anecdotal.

He walked to work, because he had no car. His wife walked to the store because she didn't have anything either. Their kids got second hand bikes, and rode to school on them.

Anecdotal.

This guy worked as a burger flipper for 2 to 3 years, flipping burgers for minimum wage. They lived off minimum wage. No they didn't have computers and internet, or TV, and air conditioning was opening the windows in the summer. They lived in a one bedroom apartment. Their two kids slept in the living room.

Anecdotal. :2razz:

You can live on very little. It's a choice.

Have you seen how much the prices of food have risen? Oh wait, you're probably going to blame THAT on minimum wage too.

This guy worked hard. He was always on time. He always did what he was asked. He was always happy. Like I said before, he moved up and years later I met him working at the biggest Hertz Rent-a-Car in Columbus Ohio, the one right by the airport. He wasn't just working there, he was the manager of the entire store.

Now here's my problem. You are telling me, that a guy from Romania, who barely speaks English, who has no education, no training or skills, no money to get any education, can not only survive off minimum wage at Wendy's, but also move up over time to become a store manager of a lucrative business.........

But an America, with full education, somehow is incapable of doing what the uneducated foreign guy can?

No, I don't believe it. If that's true, then Americans are the most absolutely pathetic retarded fools on the planet. Foreign people with NOTHING can come to America and succeed, but Americans with all the advantages of being educated and raised here, can not? No! I'm sorry! That is far too unbelievable. I just simply don't buy it.

I just love how you speak about your friends and act as if I should consider this as evidence. For one thing, this is an example of one or a couple of people. How on earth is that an accurate representation of the status quo?

 

[tererun]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I accept that. However I would mention that I have posted links to research that has shown repeatedly that what I say has happened in the past.

And of course, I would also cite the last 5 years. In 2006, the unemployment rate for the lowest income people, was pretty low honestly. And then in 2007, 2008 and 2009, they raised the minimum wage. What is the unemployment rate now? Pretty high.

And in states that have had higher minimum wages, like California, the unemployment at that lowest end has been high for years. Then you look at places like France, and they have had 20% unemployment rates for DECADES.

I accept you don't buy the argument. I accept that. You and me can still be friends. I'll still be nice to you, and you can still hate me. But... I kinda think I have given quite a bit of evidence for my position. You can still disagree! But... I really have given some support for what I believe even if you don't buy the support.

Your argument actually falls apart on the opposite end. Without a minimum wage, wages just keep getting worse and worse and eventually leads to a farm of slavery where the employer puts the employee into debt with them because they don't pay the employee enough to survive. You are right, the differently applied minimum wage system naturally drives companies who can to areas where they can pay less. However, without any minimum wage we end up working in sweatshops. It operates by the same principle that there is always someone ready to work for less.

In some cases this is not terrible. The recession is more of a necessary correction rather than a problem. People were living way beyond their means in a place which supports inequality. credit became the lifeblood of the middle class. That boosted commerce way above what it should have been, and that boosted salaries because companies could afford to pay their useless people more to play computer games all day long. A lot of the people who lost their jobs in the recession were not necessary to the work. You had 3 or 4 people doing the work one person could accomplish.

you need to enjoy it now because it cannot last forever. Eventually people are going to realize this is not the 1900s or earlier. We simply do not need the man hours anymore, and with things like 3d printing, which is a terrible name for a device that can create anything designed on a computer out of polymers, we will be needing less people than ever in the future. Our problem now is our employment runs on ideals set up by people about a century ago when we needed a huge workforce. When people realize the true cost of manufacturing, and that we could get food, clothing, shelter, computers, communication, and medical care to everyone at less than a penny on the dollar we spend now there is going to be a revolution. Socialism is the way of the future because capitalism leads to most of the BS we have right now.

Enjoy your inequality and pretending that you are somehow entitled to a better life simply because of where you were born and who you were born to. If you want to see the start of equality, you need to end inheritance and birthright. Those are our biggest entitlements, and oddly they really seem to help those people who whine the most about entitlements. Welfare certainly does not help someone as much as being born rich or white in the US.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I don't know either now. I can't find direct evidence. However, I never suggested that GM would want to do this. Only the Unions would. And as I said, there are many Unions that absolutely do have automatic pay raises tied to minimum wage.



That's kind of my point actually. GM didn't suffer a strike, because they agreed with Union demands, which resulted in the bankruptcy.



But that's just it. They didn't get concessions. Ford got concession back in 2006. Which is exactly why they had lower labor costs than GM or Chrysler. The Unions refused to give concessions to GM and Chrysler in 2008, which is exactly why they went bankrupt.



Yes, but there's a reason. If you are running a car company, and your labor is significantly higher than Toyota or Honda, what happens? You have to drive up your prices to compensate.

Well you can't do that. If the comparable Toyota is $5,000 cheaper, you are going to lose customers really fast. So you have to keep the price with the market. You go to the Unions, and they refuse to cut labor costs. There's only one other thing you can cut. The quality of the car. Cheaper materials. Fewer luxuries.

You are looking at an effect of Union contracts, and calling it a cause. Lower quality cars is an effect of higher labor costs. Again, corporations do not have a single penny that doesn't come from either higher prices on customers, or lower wages to employees, or a cheaper product. If you can't raise your price because of Toyota and Honda, and you can't cut your wages to employees because of the Unions, then the only alternative is to produce a cheaper product.

Then you call that a bad management decision. I do not buy it.

GM models are not more expensive than comparable Toyota and Honda models. They generally less expensive, but are more poorly designed. A Chevy Malibu, for example, can be had for less than a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord, but check out Consumer reports to see which one is the most likely to be a good reliable vehicle, and the Toyota and Honda will be by far the better choice. CR, in fact, called the Honda Accord the best car in its class, which has nothing to do with its price. Design is not something the union can influence. It is a choice made by management.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Your argument actually falls apart on the opposite end. Without a minimum wage, wages just keep getting worse and worse and eventually leads to a farm of slavery where the employer puts the employee into debt with them because they don't pay the employee enough to survive.

What proof do you have that this would happen in this country today?

 

[tererun]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

What proof do you have that this would happen in this country today?

Business has one purpose, and that is to make money. Mony businesses find it is so much better they ship products from china because of the fact they can work people to death for little money. Yes, i know some teacher probably told you it makes no sense to do that to your employees, but the reality is that teacher lied to you. On low end easy to do jobs, the most common out there by a large margin, paying people less is more profitable for a business. the idea that capitalism looks out for employees is a load of crap. Employees are an easily replaceable resource in capitalism. That is why we have things like unions , the DOL, and a minimum wage. They came about because money is much more important than employees to a business. Money is so powerful that in the case of unions their purpose has been warped to make money rather than protect employees.

 

[EarlzP]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

That isn't an answer. Try demanding $20 an hour to pick tomatoes and get back to me.

Notice how my response is about as valid, or in this case, as stupid as yours? If you want to have a discussion at the 5-year-old level of debate, go somewhere else. I'm here to talk to adult. If you are not one, please move on and spare the rest of us, ok?

You have resorted to insults because you know you have no valid argument, I have worked as a picker "migrant worker" and have seen the horrible conditions they live in in spite of the valuable service they provide, it's people like you who down play the value of their labor that prevents them from being able to move up the ladder, we need three things to survive food, air and shelter which of these do you provide that makes your labor so valuable.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Try eating the printer and get back to me.

I can grow a tomato, yet I cannot grow (or make) a printer. Why does a fishing rod/reel cost more than a fish?

 

[EarlzP]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I can grow a tomato, yet I cannot grow (or make) a printer. Why does a fishing rod/reel cost more than a fish?

You can grow a tomato, lucky you. Why do you need a printer or a fishing rod and reel?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

You can grow a tomato, lucky you. Why do you need a printer or a fishing rod and reel?

I need a printer to produce my estimates/bids and for customer bills. I need fishing gear to catch fish. You ask some very easy questions!

 

[fmw]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Businesses make a LOT more money than they did in the 1960s. That is just a fact. At the same time, minimum wage has remained relatively flat.

Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.

 

[EarlzP]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I need a printer to produce my estimates/bids and for customer bills. I need fishing gear to catch fish. You ask some very easy questions!

I was in business "now retired" and I did enjoy fishing. I used a printer and fishing gear for the same reasons. You used the word need when it should be want. You need food, water and shelter, you want a printer and fishing gear.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.

and the minimum wage went to $1.25 an hour in '61 despite cries that it would lead to the end of the world, or at least the end of being able to join the labor force. Let's see.. your prices are about what I recall, except houses were a lot cheaper where we lived.

$1.25 would buy five gallons of gas, cost today around $20.
It would take 16,000 minimum wage hours to buy that house. Today, 16,000 hours at $7.50 would be $120,000.
1,600 divided by 1.25 = 1,280 hours to buy that car. Today, 1,280 times 7.50 = $9,600

I'm not sure where you can buy a house for $120 grand, but it's probably not where you could have bought one in '64 for 20 grand.

Can someone name a new car that can be had for $9,600?

It seems to me that the real wages of entry level jobs is a lot less than it used to be.

On the other hand, it was a lot harder to get the government to support you back then. People who worked had it better than those who didn't .

Shouldn't it still be that way?

 

[Rocketman]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Because there are almost no people who could work but won't. There's just a substantial amount who can't. And those are the people who would starve if not for the programs you're discussing. The fiction about a class of people who refuse to work is what's driving this issue.

I bet that 50% of people on disability since 08 could be working now.

 

[Paschendale]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.

If inflation were a factor here, then wages would have gone up according. They have not. Wages have barely increased since the 70's, while inflation certainly has, and business profits have soared. So why the discrepancy?

I bet that 50% of people on disability since 08 could be working now.

I bet that you have no data to back that up that assertion.

 

[ChrisL]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Don't forget that the dollar is worth less than 10% of what it was worth in the 60's. In the 60's I could buy gas for 25 cents per gallon. I could buy a small but brand new house for $20,000. My new 1964 Volkswagen cost me $1600. There were no billionaires. Millionaires were rare. The comparison you make is meaningless without considering the intervening inflation.

I don't know what you mean. My whole point has been that minimum wage has not kept up with inflation.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I bet that 50% of people on disability since 08 could be working now.

I bet you just pulled that figure from your ass.

 

[Rocketman]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I bet you just pulled that figure from your ass.

I know more people drawing that could be working than I do people that actually should be. 50% was conservative.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

I know more people drawing that could be working than I do people that actually should be. 50% was conservative.

And I know more people drawing that can't work than actually can. What makes your experience more accurate than mine?

 

[Rocketman]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

And I know more people drawing that can't work than actually can. What makes your experience more accurate than mine?

Because you find it acceptable that they play instead of work, I don't. When I see them fishing, riding motorcycles, etc. everyone should know what is going on.

Takers are one of the biggest problems this country has and it does not stop here. People drawing unemployment longer than 26 weeks add to the problem as do these farmers drawing these incredible subsidies.

 

[Snake Oil]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

If Iraq and Afghanistan were entitled to 4 or 5 TRILLION dollars of the US taxpayers money, how can we with a straight face say the the american taxpayer isn't entitled to anything? Thats the old cliche' of getting screwed without the reach around.

 

[TheNextEra]

Re: Entitlements - help me understandI see folks on here and other forum's speak of "

Because you find it acceptable that they play instead of work, I don't. When I see them fishing, riding motorcycles, etc. everyone should know what is going on.

Please point out where I find it acceptable for those that can work and don't. I said I know more people that can't work than I do that can and don't.

Takers are one of the biggest problems this country has and it does not stop here. People drawing unemployment longer than 26 weeks add to the problem as do these farmers drawing these incredible subsidies.

Again not disagreeing there, but that does not even come close to addressing my previous comment.

Again, what makes your experience more accurate than mine?