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Electrical question

Do your washer instructions give specs and requirements. A front loader may need a 30amp or the dual 15 mentioned above.

:shrug: Don't know. Neither the delivery people, nor the salesperson, said anything about special requirements for electrical. They just set it up and plugged it in. And up until recently, it's worked OK.
 
:shrug: Don't know. Neither the delivery people, nor the salesperson, said anything about special requirements for electrical. They just set it up and plugged it in. And up until recently, it's worked OK.
Of course they did. Now it's up to you to determine, additionally a 30A or dual 15A isn't unusual or special for a laundry room.
 
Of course they did. Now it's up to you to determine, additionally a 30A or dual 15A isn't unusual or special for a laundry room.

So what you are saying is the breaker isn't strong enough for the washer? Why would it have worked up until now?

And what is involved in switching out a breaker?

(thanks for the info, by the way)
 
So what you are saying is the breaker isn't strong enough for the washer? Why would it have worked up until now?

And what is involved in switching out a breaker?

(thanks for the info, by the way)

Look for a label or info plate, probably just inside the door to the washer that will have the amperage of the washer listed. If that amperage is the same or higher than the amperage of the breaker you need to have the circuit upgraded by an electrician.
Breaker should always be a higher rating than the appliance.
Breakers can be changed pretty easily ... unless the wiring needs to be up graded...then we are pulling new wires through the wall.
 
So what you are saying is the breaker isn't strong enough for the washer? Why would it have worked up until now?

And what is involved in switching out a breaker?

(thanks for the info, by the way)

No, I'm not saying that for sure. What I'm saying is read and find out if the specs suggest a Amperage. It should be in the specs and requirements pages of your instruction booklet and warranty type stuff???

Switching out the breaker is easy, but you have to know how to shut down the electric to the whole house, usually an outside breaker where I've lived, maybe in the garage? I don't about that with the codes of where you live. We had a master in the inside box, but also one outside for all electric to the house,... I'd always turn off both. You have to have rubber handled screwdriver, or at least I did, I've seen men with man hands pull 'em without but I needed one, and to be extra safe rubber electrical handling gloves.... I never did the glove thing.
 
3 months. From the day we bought the washer. A few times the breaker has tripped, but tonight, it just kept tripping to the point that we couldn't finish the load of laundry.


Yes but not like tonight.

This tells me that you've probably had this circuit running very close to the edge for quite some time. Did you have this issue with the previous washer/drier?



Not sure on the above questions. How would I know?



I am not sure. I will ask my husband. He said it started really bad tonight while we were gone.



No. Nothing has changed. Nothing new has been plugged in, in the area. What else is weird, though - let me show you this:

View attachment 67164961

The green is where the washer is plugged in. Nothing else is plugged in there.

The purple is where the freezer is plugged in.

The red is where I have plugged in my vacuum when I vacuum the floor. I have noticed since I got a new vacuum, the breaker keeps tripping there, too, when I try to vacuum the floor.

Did you have that issue with the previous vacuum cleaner? I'm wondering if this isn't the same thing I have some suspicion about with your washer/drier. Perhaps your new vacuum cleaner is more powerful than your old one, and the circuit you're plugging it into may be was sufficient for the old one, but not the new one.

But it's a brand new house. Why would it not be wired to support a front-load washer? They've been out for 10 years. :(

Not all appliances of a given kind are created the same. Some are more powerful than others. And more powerful appliances need a more robust circuit to feed them. If you replaced one appliance with a more powerful appliance of otherwise the same type, and now your circuit breaker keeps tripping, perhaps the circuit isn't up to feeding this more powerful appliance.


At this point, I think Turtledude has given the best advice. Get someone there who is qualified, to look into your issue. For the record, I'm not quite qualified yet. I'm approaching the point in my own course of training where I should soon get my ET card, which will indicate that I will then be qualified to work as an apprentice-level electrician.

electrical issues are nothing to screw with due to the danger of both shock and fire best call a electrician ASAP

yeah its expensive but unless someone who is a master IBEW guy here I'd rather you do that than not seeing you here for a month because you are in the ICU with third degree burns.

some things I don't screw with such as a temperature over 104, and electrical problems
 
Look for a label or info plate, probably just inside the door to the washer that will have the amperage of the washer listed. If that amperage is the same or higher than the amperage of the breaker you need to have the circuit upgraded by an electrician.
Breaker should always be a higher rating than the appliance.
Breakers can be changed pretty easily ... unless the wiring needs to be up graded...then we are pulling new wires through the wall.

Will have to figure out how to do it another time. Right now, the washer is full of water and wet clothes. The door locks at the beginning of the cycle and doesn't unlock until the cycle finishes. :(
 
This tells me that you've probably had this circuit running very close to the edge for quite some time. Did you have this issue with the previous washer/drier?

No, I don't recall either breaker ever tripping before, with the older washer or the older vacuum.
 
No, I don't recall either breaker ever tripping before, with the older washer or the older vacuum.

I forgot that you had mentioned the vacuum also. I'm beginning to think you just have a bad breaker, they can go bad. Again, I'd consider upping it from 20A to either 30A or dual 15A if this is the case. And y'know changing a breaker is really easy. The reason everyone will freak out and tell you to waste $100 for the labor of an electrician is because they think we (women) are too stupid to turn the electric to the house off first. Of all the electrical fixes to a home, breakers are the safest really in that they are the least likely to get wrong. They sort of plug in and sort of pull out, so there's no wires to fiddle with, no tapes or clamps, just a unplug one and plug in the other. I'm sure there are dozens of youtubes to give you the correct visuals. Or even the hardware guy is likely to be willing to explain it to you, though I'm not sure in today's sue happy world they will. My guys always gave me great answers, but they knew I was a remodeling nutter and had pretty good grasp.

On edit: also you have to educate yourself about your breakers, you have to replace with the right ones, or better yet just take the one you're intending on replacing in with you when you buy the replacement.
 
Thanks for the info above. I looked at the breaker, and it says "COMBINATION: Type AFCI, Type CHAF" whatever that means. It does have that funky yellow TEST button on it, though.

That's an arc-fault circuit interrupter. Required by NEC-2011 for all living-room and bedroom receptacle circuits.


The washer is plugged into an outlet that was dedicated for our modem, but we had to move the modem to give better wireless coverage to the rest of the house. We plugged in the washer to that outlet, and nothing else is plugged in there. The breaker is still tripped, even now, and the freezer is still on. I just got up and checked the dining room light to see if it was still on, to see if the breakers that continually tripped with the washer and with the vacuum might be on the same one, and they are not, because even though the breaker is tripped, the dining room light is still working.

Has it occurred to you that a modem or similar piece of equipment would require much, much less power, than an appliance such as a washer/drier, and that a dedicated circuit intended to feed the former would very likely not be expected to be robust enough to feed the latter? I can see that some others in this thread have possibly picked up on this as well, and given more information that only muddles rather than clarifies.

You need to take the washer/drier off of that circuit, NOW, and do not ever put it back there. Find the proper receptacle, that is fed through the breaker that is labeled “Washer”, and plug the washer in there, and nowhere else.
 
I forgot that you had mentioned the vacuum also. I'm beginning to think you just have a bad breaker, they can go bad. Again, I'd consider upping it from 20A to either 30A or dual 15A if this is the case. And y'know changing a breaker is really easy. The reason everyone will freak out and tell you to waste $100 for the labor of an electrician is because they think we (women) are too stupid to turn the electric to the house off first. Of all the electrical fixes to a home, breakers are the safest really in that they are the least likely to get wrong. They sort of plug in and sort of pull out, so there's no wires to fiddle with, no tapes or clamps, just a unplug one and plug in the other. I'm sure there are dozens of youtubes to give you the correct visuals. Or even the hardware guy is likely to be willing to explain it to you, though I'm not sure in today's sue happy world they will. My guys always gave me great answers, but they knew I was a remodeling nutter and had pretty good grasp.

On edit: also you have to educate yourself about your breakers, you have to replace with the right ones, or better yet just take the one you're intending on replacing in with you when you buy the replacement.
You sound quite competent Summerwind. That's a great piece of advice for Superfly if she is going to try a new ACFI breaker would be to remove the breaker first and bring it to the electrical supply or hardware store. There are many different brands and types of breakers and I have seen even experienced licensed electricians order the wrong breaker on occasion.
You should not upgrade to a higher breaker amperage without checking to see if the AWG of the wire gauge is sufficient to carry the higher potential load safely.
 
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So what you are saying is the breaker isn't strong enough for the washer? Why would it have worked up until now?

And what is involved in switching out a breaker?

(thanks for the info, by the way)

You NEVER just switch out a breaker for a higher-rated breaker.

Don't do it.

Don't even think of doing it.

The breaker is the point that defines the ampacity of the whole circuit, and the wire used in the circuit,and other materials and devices, will have been selected according to that. It's meant to be the weak point, that will protect everything else by tripping before there's enough overcurrent to damage other parts of the circuit. Please note that when I speak of “damage”, in this case, I am speaking of conditions that may cause overheating of the wires, may cause insulation to melt off the wires, and may set your house on fire.

Just don't do it.
 
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No, I'm not saying that for sure. What I'm saying is read and find out if the specs suggest a Amperage. It should be in the specs and requirements pages of your instruction booklet and warranty type stuff???

Switching out the breaker is easy, but you have to know how to shut down the electric to the whole house, usually an outside breaker where I've lived, maybe in the garage? I don't about that with the codes of where you live. We had a master in the inside box, but also one outside for all electric to the house,... I'd always turn off both. You have to have rubber handled screwdriver, or at least I did, I've seen men with man hands pull 'em without but I needed one, and to be extra safe rubber electrical handling gloves.... I never did the glove thing.

I forgot that you had mentioned the vacuum also. I'm beginning to think you just have a bad breaker, they can go bad. Again, I'd consider upping it from 20A to either 30A or dual 15A if this is the case. And y'know changing a breaker is really easy. The reason everyone will freak out and tell you to waste $100 for the labor of an electrician is because they think we (women) are too stupid to turn the electric to the house off first. Of all the electrical fixes to a home, breakers are the safest really in that they are the least likely to get wrong. They sort of plug in and sort of pull out, so there's no wires to fiddle with, no tapes or clamps, just a unplug one and plug in the other. I'm sure there are dozens of youtubes to give you the correct visuals. Or even the hardware guy is likely to be willing to explain it to you, though I'm not sure in today's sue happy world they will. My guys always gave me great answers, but they knew I was a remodeling nutter and had pretty good grasp.

On edit: also you have to educate yourself about your breakers, you have to replace with the right ones, or better yet just take the one you're intending on replacing in with you when you buy the replacement.

This has to be said.

DO NOT FOLLOW SUMMERWIND'S ADVICE. IT IS CLEAR THAT SHE HAS NO CLUE WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT, AND FOLLOWING HER ADVICE COULD GET YOUR HOUSE BURNED DOWN, AND/OR GET YOU KILLED. DON'T DO IT.

There are some things that are not the domain of ignorant, unskilled do-it-yourselfers. This is dangerous stuff for someone to mess with who doesn't know what he or she is doing.
 
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You sound quite competent Summerwind. That's a great piece of advice for Superfly if she is going to try a new ACFI breaker would be to remove the breaker first and bring it to the electrical supply or hardware store. There are many different brands and types of breakers and I have seen even experienced licensed electricians order the wrong breaker on occasion.
You should not upgrade to a higher breaker amperage without checking to see if the AWG of the wire gauge is sufficient to carry the higher potential load safely.

I agree about the wiring and had thought about that, but it seems that usually (though not always) a 20A wiring can take a 30A total load. She did comment it was a 20A to start with, but you are absolutely correct. And ultimately your suggestion that she use the appropriate socket to the washer breaker is really the best option, I had missed that she wasn't in that socket.
 




This has to be said.

DO NOT FOLLOW SUMMERWIND'S ADVICE. IT IS CLEAR THAT SHE HAS NO CLUE WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT, AND FOLLOWING HER ADVICE COULD GET YOUR HOUSE BURNED DOWN, AND/OR GET YOU KILLED. DON'T DO IT.

There are some things that are not the domain of ignorant, unskilled do-it-yourselfers. This is dangerous stuff for someone to mess with who doesn't know what he or she is doing.

I've replace dozens of breakers and never has my house burned down. Or been in danger of doing so.
 
I agree about the wiring and had thought about that, but it seems that usually (though not always) a 20A wiring can take a 30A total load.

If it was meant to be a 30-ampere circuit, then it would have been wired with wire that was rated to carry 30 amperes. If it's wired with 20-ampere wire, then it's only a 20-ampere circuit, and putting a 30-ampere breaker on it and using it as a 30-ampere circuit would be a very dangerous thing to do.
 
I've replace dozens of breakers and never has my house burned down. Or been in danger of doing so.

Like the repeat drunk driver, who insists that it's safe, because he hasn't been in a wreck (yet). You've just been lucky, so far.

And one has to wonder why you've replaced dozens of breakers in one house. Properly installed, they don't fail that often.
 
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If it was meant to be a 30-ampere circuit, then it would have been wired with wire that was rated to carry 30 amperes. If it's wired with 20-ampere wire, then it's only a 20-ampere circuit, and putting a 30-ampere breaker on it and using it as a 30-ampere circuit would be a very dangerous thing to do.

Eh, the electricians I knew indicate that isn't so. A jump from 10 to 30, sure, 20 - 30 not a problem. The first electrician I paid to unplug and plug, did exactly as I'm recommending. I did my own electrical on two shops (ULF and aerial photolabs) and 7 house remodels. I do know what I'm talking about. However, it would be best to be certain that the original electrical wasn't cost-cut such that it'd be a problem.
 
I've replace dozens of breakers and never has my house burned down. Or been in danger of doing so.
Once the cover to the breaker box is removed it is easy to check the AWG of the wires going to each breaker.
Here is a simple chart that gives the safe AWG for different amperage of breakers.
http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/NEC AMPACITIES.pdf
i would never upgrade to a higher breaker amperage unless i checked the AWG wire gauge against this chart to see if the change will be safe.
It's not rocket science or even brain surgery as many electricians would like us to believe, but it does require a little homework, research and safety precautions before changing breaker ratings.
What I tell people is if you are not sure about what you are doing, better to defer to a professional and pay the $$$s. The internet however is loaded with information on simple to complex wiring instruction if you are willing to educate yourself.
 
Thanks for the info above. I looked at the breaker, and it says "COMBINATION: Type AFCI, Type CHAF" whatever that means. It does have that funky yellow TEST button on it, though.

The washer is plugged into an outlet that was dedicated for our modem, but we had to move the modem to give better wireless coverage to the rest of the house. We plugged in the washer to that outlet, and nothing else is plugged in there. The breaker is still tripped, even now, and the freezer is still on. I just got up and checked the dining room light to see if it was still on, to see if the breakers that continually tripped with the washer and with the vacuum might be on the same one, and they are not, because even though the breaker is tripped, the dining room light is still working.

On a circuit that has an AFCI, just a nick on the conductor (wire) where an electrician has stripped the instalation to make a connection to a receptical or switch can cause a AFCI to trip.

But it's more likely there's an issue with your washer/dryer that's causing the AFCI breaker to trip.

AFCI aren't perfected yet, they are close to it though. When AFCI first came out they were only used in sleeping areas. A blender that you use in your kitchen would cause the original AFCI to trip but who would use a blender in their bedroom ?

Since your home is only three years old, it's likely your house wiring is only to the minium of the NEC. Because of the high cost of copper today, to many electricians are cutting corners and trying to save a buck and are just meeting the minium of the code. If you find any 14 ga. wiring in your service or sub panel, it was one of those electricians who's just going with the minium of the code.

Breakers do fail and go bad.

I find it interesting that the electrician used a SWD breaker. Nothing wrong with that but a SWD rated breaker is a light circuit switching breaker.

Call a qualified electrician is my suggestion who specialises in home wiring. Industrial and commercial electricians have little knowledge and experiance with AFCI.


For you electricians out there, NEMA has taken on the AFCI trouible shooting issue. Go to their website and look for the NEMA's eiXtra: January 10, 2012

Troubleshooting Tips for AFCI Installationsby Gerard Winstanley, NEMA
Basic wiring practices for AFCI-protected circuits

>" Unlike a conventional circuit breaker, which detects overloads and short circuits, an arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) uses advanced electronic technology to sense different arcing conditions. This device weeds out the harmful arc characteristics from the “normal” arcs that occur during the normal operation of loads and other wiring devices. Common household items, such as a motor-driven vacuum cleaner or a furnace motor, naturally create arcs when they operate—each of which is considered a normal arc (click here to see Fig. 1).

Another example is the arc that may occur when a light switch is turned off. Dangerous arc faults, however, may result from improper installation, damaged wiring, overheated or stressed electrical cords, worn electrical insulation, wires and/or cords in contact with vibrating metal, damaged electrical appliances, and more. This type of arc condition creates high-intensity heat, which may exceed 10,000°F and result in burning particles that can easily ignite surrounding material, such as wood framing or insulation.

AFCIs are designed to recognize arc faults when they occur and automatically shut the circuit down before it becomes a fire hazard. Manufacturers of AFCIs test for hundreds of possible operating conditions, designing each AFCI to constantly discern between normal and dangerous arcs.

Due to the proven effectiveness of AFCIs, it’s important electricians follow proper wiring practices to help minimize troubleshooting efforts. The following sections highlight some of the best practices for electrical installation projects, but especially those performed on circuits that will be protected by AFCIs. Appropriate steps to successfully troubleshoot a potential wiring problem that will cause the AFCI to trip are also covered.

Other related information:

•Proper Tools and Work Practices
•Installation and Troubleshooting Tips
•AFCIs and the NEC ..."<
 
Eh, the electricians I knew indicate that isn't so. A jump from 10 to 30, sure, 20 - 30 not a problem.

It's certainly illegal, as well as dangerous. The NEC specifies minimum conductor sizes for circuits of a given ampacity, and copper is costly enough that most electricians aren't usually going to use a bigger conductor in a circuit than is called for by that circuit's rating. Unless you have some way of determining for certain that a 20-ampere circuit was wired all the way with conductors and devices that are suitable for a 30-ampere circuit, it is outright illegal to put a 30-ampere breaker on it and use it to feed a 30-ampere load.
 
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Once the cover to the breaker box is removed it is easy to check the AWG of the wires going to each breaker.
Here is a simple chart that gives the safe AWG for different amperage of breakers.
http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/NEC AMPACITIES.pdf
i would never upgrade to a higher breaker amperage unless i checked the AWG wire gauge against this chart to see if the change will be safe.

That fails to account for possible derations that may be necessary.

Nominally, for example, 14 AWG copper is for 15-ampere circuits, 12 AWG for 20-ampere circuits, and 10 AWG for 30-ampere circuits.

But if you see that a 15-ampere breaker is feeding into a 12 AWG wire, you can't know just from that that somewhere between the breaker and the other end of that branch circuit, that that wire isn't passing through conditions that require it to be derated. For example, per NEC table 310.15(B)(3)(a) (page 152 in the 2011 NEC), if you pass two 12 AWG two-conductor Romex cables through the same hole, or run them through the same conduit or raceway at any point, then you have to derate them to 80%. That 20 ampere capacity of the wire now becomes 16 amperes. Perhaps that circuit goes through one or more points where it is running together with another circuit, such that it needs to be derated in that manner. Normally, a 14 AWG wire would be used for a 15-ampere circuit, but a deration to 80% would reduce it to an ampacity of only 12 amperes.

There are also adjustments for ambient temperature. NEC Table 310.15(B)(2)(a) and 310.15(B)(2)(b) cover this. Perhaps the electrician had to run that wire past a place that he knew was going to be subject to greater-than normal heat, and so he went to a bigger wire size to allow for that adjustment.

There's also a possibility that the circuit starts out as a 12 AWG wire coming from the panel, but is later spliced to a 14 AWG wire.

All of this is hidden in the walls. You cannot judge, from any of the small parts of the circuit that you can see without tearing out all the drywall, that the entire circuit is sufficient for any higher-ampacity breaker than that which the electrician provided for that circuit. If the electrician had wired that entire circuit to be suitable for a 20-ampere load, he would most likely have given it a 20-ampere breaker. If he had wired that entire circuit to be suitable for a 30-ampere load, he would most likely have given it a 30-ampere breaker. If it looks to you like the circuit should be sufficient for a 20-ampere load, but it only has a 15-ampere breaker, then it is most likely that the electrician who installed it knows something that you do not, about some part of that circuit that is only built for 15 amperes.
 
I got an idea. Plug the washer into the correct outlet, and plug in your modem somewhere else.
 
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