Education standards

[jallman]

I can say without any hesitation that the education system is severely lacking. There is way too much pandering and stroking of the average and below average students' ego and way too little encouragement toward excellence. Mathematics and reading comprehension levels are apalling when you consider the "average" student. Subjects like latin, history, and geometry which promote well rounded lessons, foundation for language structure, and critical thinking are being phased out of schools and replaced with dumbed down courses like current events and business math. As an alternative to physics, a student is often offered a much more simplistic course like earth science, which as a matter of course, covers physics without covering any of the mathematics behind it.

The only way I can see to compromise in this is to offer a track system where a student can split off in high school and pursue either academic studies or vocational studies. My stumbling block in this compromise is how to fairly and efficiently decide which track a student will pursue while taking into account the child's wishes and the parent's wishes while still yet balancing these concerns against the abilities the child has shown up to this point in his/her education.

I also feel the school day and year should be extended, but I feel that the high school year should parallel a college student's year...with the same breaks and length of study...measured in hours credits. Raise the bar, but also raise the reward so to speak. Any thoughts?

 

[ludahai]

The only way I can see to compromise in this is to offer a track system where a student can split off in high school and pursue either academic studies or vocational studies. My stumbling block in this compromise is how to fairly and efficiently decide which track a student will pursue while taking into account the child's wishes and the parent's wishes while still yet balancing these concerns against the abilities the child has shown up to this point in his/her education.

When I want to high school (late 1980s in NH), we had tracking. AP/Honors, College Prep, General, Remedial and I thought it worked pretty well. I was in the AP/College prep tracks for all courses. My HS also had voc-tech courses and a very strong business program, the later of which I also took courses in. Made for some pretty full high school schedules.

However, when I taught HS in Georgia, there were NO tracks. I talked about this to a couple of experience teachers and they informed me that tracks used to be widely used in Georgia, but accusations of racial tracking forced it to be abandoned. There was an allegation that Blacks were shunted into the lower tracks. I don't know if this is true or now. My collegues said that it was way overblown. Of course, that isn't a problem in NH, but about 30% of Georgia's population is Black.

 

[HTColeman]

When I want to high school (late 1980s in NH), we had tracking. AP/Honors, College Prep, General, Remedial and I thought it worked pretty well. I was in the AP/College prep tracks for all courses. My HS also had voc-tech courses and a very strong business program, the later of which I also took courses in. Made for some pretty full high school schedules.

However, when I taught HS in Georgia, there were NO tracks. I talked about this to a couple of experience teachers and they informed me that tracks used to be widely used in Georgia, but accusations of racial tracking forced it to be abandoned. There was an allegation that Blacks were shunted into the lower tracks. I don't know if this is true or now. My collegues said that it was way overblown. Of course, that isn't a problem in NH, but about 30% of Georgia's population is Black.

My school has tracking, but as far as racial allegations that did happen, and does happen. In the past, whites were put in the higher level classes and blacks were put in the the lower levels. Now, it is not to that degree, but some schools put labels on minority students as dumber than white students. So they deem them academically challenged and put them in special ed, not based on their learning ability, but based on stereotypes.

 

[nkgupta80]

My school has tracking, but as far as racial allegations that did happen, and does happen. In the past, whites were put in the higher level classes and blacks were put in the the lower levels. Now, it is not to that degree, but some schools put labels on minority students as dumber than white students. So they deem them academically challenged and put them in special ed, not based on their learning ability, but based on stereotypes.

im surprised that this still happens...

 

[ludahai]

My school has tracking, but as far as racial allegations that did happen, and does happen. In the past, whites were put in the higher level classes and blacks were put in the the lower levels. Now, it is not to that degree, but some schools put labels on minority students as dumber than white students. So they deem them academically challenged and put them in special ed, not based on their learning ability, but based on stereotypes.

The question is was there justification for it? Are Black students less capable? Of course not. However, in my experience, Blacks achievement trails that of whites and Asians. It is something about Black male culture that is the problem. So, is that a contributing factor to the disparity in your experience, of is it out and out racism?

 

[Diogenes]

The question is was there justification for it? Are Black students less capable? Of course not. However, in my experience, Blacks achievement trails that of whites and Asians. It is something about Black male culture that is the problem. So, is that a contributing factor to the disparity in your experience, of is it out and out racism?

Thomas Sowell (IMO, the most clear-headed social thinker on the continent) describes that phenomenon in his book Black Rednecks and White Liberals, and his column Who's A Redneck makes very interesting (and enlightening) reading.

The problem isn't racial, it's cultural. But the Liberal Plantation owners of the Left would have us believe it's racial so they can pretend they are still doing something useful.

 

[tokugawa]

An aside from the discussion on standards, I have a question. Is part of the problem a lack of diversity? History classes that I took during Middle and High School essentially repeated the same information every year. After a few years learning the same things I tuned out and stopped paying attention. All in all I felt too much was being repeated and I grew to hate school. I grew up in a university town that had AP classes and 01, 03 and 05 classes for different abilities. I took the 05 level classes, but still felt they were a waste of time.

My high school performance was less than stellar, and I was extremely happy to finish school. I then attended a Big 10 university and did very well once I could take new classes. The fresh, new information was exciting and I was motivated. Has anyone else had the same experience? I can't help but feel our lack of diversity in classes is harming students. Especially in the US, with such a diverse population, there must be room for History from Alexander to Yuan and everything in between. At the same time, stop so much overlap in teaching the same sciences, mathematics, etc. that could very well be turning students against learning.

 

[ludahai]

An aside from the discussion on standards, I have a question. Is part of the problem a lack of diversity? History classes that I took during Middle and High School essentially repeated the same information every year. After a few years learning the same things I tuned out and stopped paying attention. All in all I felt too much was being repeated and I grew to hate school. I grew up in a university town that had AP classes and 01, 03 and 05 classes for different abilities. I took the 05 level classes, but still felt they were a waste of time.

I am better qualified to speak in regard to the social studies as that is my area. I find little duplication in the typical high school social studies curriculum. To use the high school I taught at in Georgia as an example, students took Political Science (essentially American Government) in 9th grade, World History in 10th, U.S. History in 11th, and Economics and Comparative Politics in 12th. With the exception of some review of political science at the beginning of Comparative, there is little overlap except where U.S. and World History tend to overlap. At the school I taught at, the U.S. and World (I was one of the later) tried to align the curriculum to supplement NOT to repeat.

 

[tokugawa]

That is nice to hear from your experience and I hope it continues to spread. We learned American government, but only for a semester. Years 6-8 and 10,11 focused on the American Revolution, Civil War and WW2. The general knowledge bits were discussed but not much more. There is talk about reforming part of WW2 studies to be more open about the atomic bomb which is good, but all in all, is a wide spectrum of civilization being covered?

 

[Diogenes]

... is a wide spectrum of civilization being covered?

Not as wide as it should be, and the problem goes back several decades.

My mother taught astronomy, algebra and calculus at our local university through the fifties and sixties and into the seventies. At the end of the sixties, the Education Department took a new direction (they called it the New School) which crippled it. One of their bright new lights (from New York City, on a mission to educate us backwater yokels) proposed a math curriculum for teachers, and the Math Department asked my mother to evaluate it. After looking it over, she responded that she would teach the curriculum if requested, but not for college credit because it was all remedial material that a high school graduate should already know. Bright Light responded with a memo that teachers should not be required to know any more than they were expected to teach the students (!!) and he would recommend that his students not take the course; or, if they had to take the course, he would recommend that they disrupt the classes (!!). (My mother did not take this very well. When Bright Light ran for mayor a few years later, the memo surfaced in the local newspaper and he lost.)

Within a few years, most of the local shool systems refused to take student teachers from that university. The reactionary mossbacks in the surrounding school districts felt that their teachers and student teachers should look and act professional (i.e., not show up for class in sandals and T-shirts, they should shave every class day, etc.) and should be able to respond intelligently to student questions that went beyond the immediate matter in the textbooks. So minimal reforms were grudgingly made at the Education Department, but the long-term fallout - the impression that our education schools aim for minimal competence rather than excellence in the teachers they produce - is still with us today (as are a lot of the incompetent teachers).

 

[HTColeman]

The question is was there justification for it? Are Black students less capable? Of course not. However, in my experience, Blacks achievement trails that of whites and Asians. It is something about Black male culture that is the problem. So, is that a contributing factor to the disparity in your experience, of is it out and out racism?

No there is no justification for it, I'm not sure what you mean by "black male culture [...] is the problem" (keep in mind that I am a black male...). It comes from the stereotype that blacks are lazy, don't do well in school, and are generally dumber. Most of these assumptions (most of the time) are sub consious, or rather administrators judge the black students, and hispanics for that matter, and don't give it a second thought.

 

[ludahai]

No there is no justification for it, I'm not sure what you mean by "black male culture [...] is the problem" (keep in mind that I am a black male...). It comes from the stereotype that blacks are lazy, don't do well in school, and are generally dumber. Most of these assumptions (most of the time) are sub consious, or rather administrators judge the black students, and hispanics for that matter, and don't give it a second thought.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that about all black males. You certainly don't strike me as someone who would fit that mold. However, if I took all of my students I taught when I was in Georgia, I guarantee you that Black Males consistantly have the lowest homework completion rate and lowest test scores of any other groups of students I have ever taught. Asian females have generally done the best. I don't judge ANY student based on their color or gender, simply based on performance. However, these are unfortunate observations I have made. When I passed by a basketball playground at 7 or 8 in the evening, nearly everyone out there playing would be black, and many of those kids I GUARANTEE hadn't done their homework yet.

I truly hope you don't think these comments are racist. They are merely the result of my observations.

 

[HTColeman]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that about all black males. You certainly don't strike me as someone who would fit that mold. However, if I took all of my students I taught when I was in Georgia, I guarantee you that Black Males consistantly have the lowest homework completion rate and lowest test scores of any other groups of students I have ever taught. Asian females have generally done the best. I don't judge ANY student based on their color or gender, simply based on performance. However, these are unfortunate observations I have made. When I passed by a basketball playground at 7 or 8 in the evening, nearly everyone out there playing would be black, and many of those kids I GUARANTEE hadn't done their homework yet.

I truly hope you don't think these comments are racist. They are merely the result of my observations.

I don't think you are racist, however a little short sighted. You are not judging the students based on color or gender, but you are judging their anticipated performance on color and gender. I am not an exception to black males, I am an individual, like all black males. You must look at the environment they are in, many black males don't have fathers, have struggling mothers, and live in or near poverty. I was blessed enough not to have any of the above, as a result I do well in school, not because of my skin color, but because of my environment. It just so happens that many in poor environments are black, but that has to do with history, not their skin color or culture. Once again, I do not believe you are racist, but you are stereotyping. A lot of asians also resent being stereotyped as smart, that young girl doesn't do her homework because she is asian or because she is a girl, it is because she sees the value in doing it, and those other males do not because no one has the faith enough in them to show them the value. Such assumptions on black males are precisely the reason that many undeserving are placed in remedial classes, as they are expected not to do well.

 

[Diogenes]

You are not judging the students based on color or gender, but you are judging their anticipated performance on color and gender.

I don't consider myself racially biased, but I am culturally biased in the sense that a person's (individual) background is probably a reliable indicator of how they are likely to look at the world.

You must look at the environment they are in, many black males don't have fathers, have struggling mothers, and live in or near poverty.

And that environment includes a self-destructive cultural outlook. One of the best friends I ever had (from Kenya) was with me at my parents' house for Sunday supper (some 30 odd years ago), and was browsing through a copy of Life magazine. He came across an article on poverty in Appalachia (this is when LBJ's War On Poverty was still news) and there was a picture of the inside of a run-down cabin, with holes in the walls and a light bulb hanging from the ceiling by a bare wire. He tapped the picture with his finger and observed, "I don't care how poor they are. There is no excuse for THAT!"

Once again, I do not believe you are racist, but you are stereotyping.

Stereotyping on the basis of skin color leads to the wrong conclusion. Stereotyping on the basis of behavior is simply learning from experience. Anyone who shows up for a job interview with me while wearing his baseball cap sideways already has one black mark against him.

 

[HTColeman]

I don't consider myself racially biased, but I am culturally biased in the sense that a person's (individual) background is probably a reliable indicator of how they are likely to look at the world.

And that environment includes a self-destructive cultural outlook. One of the best friends I ever had (from Kenya) was with me at my parents' house for Sunday supper (some 30 odd years ago), and was browsing through a copy of Life magazine. He came across an article on poverty in Appalachia (this is when LBJ's War On Poverty was still news) and there was a picture of the inside of a run-down cabin, with holes in the walls and a light bulb hanging from the ceiling by a bare wire. He tapped the picture with his finger and observed, "I don't care how poor they are. There is no excuse for THAT!"

Stereotyping on the basis of skin color leads to the wrong conclusion. Stereotyping on the basis of behavior is simply learning from experience. Anyone who shows up for a job interview with me while wearing his baseball cap sideways already has one black mark against him.

I agree, you can look at their environment and tell a lot of things about a person, but its the enviroonment not the skin color. There are many different kinds of black males. Those like my self who grew up in favorable conditions are more likely to succeed. Those who grew up in poverty without supportive parents most likely will not, however, there are some that grow up in poverty but they have strong parental guidance, those are the ones that make it out of poverty, usually.

 

[ludahai]

I agree, you can look at their environment and tell a lot of things about a person, but its the enviroonment not the skin color. There are many different kinds of black males. Those like my self who grew up in favorable conditions are more likely to succeed. Those who grew up in poverty without supportive parents most likely will not, however, there are some that grow up in poverty but they have strong parental guidance, those are the ones that make it out of poverty, usually.

Just to put my voice of agreement with this statement.

There are wonderful examples of people of all colors, hues, and creeds who have worked their butts off with parental support (and some without) who have gotten out of poverty and have made successes of themselves. Such is the beauty of the opportunities presented by the free market economic system such as exists in the United States.