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Education standards

128shot

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Lets throw BS politics out the window for a minute or two. (I know, its hard, but we can do it)

I've been mulling, and thinking, I've a thread on this before, but my view has changed dramatically since then.


There are 2 things I want to address in our current average classroom.

The relevancy of what we teach,

and our average standards.

Honestly, I know already, that the USA's public school system is geared toward the lowsest person on average, I think personally we should be gearted toward the highest

I wouldn't mind encouraging self-education, but thats another subject.

Now, I've heard all the arguements before, "OH! kids will fail if you put the stresses to hard" I disagree.

All this means is more work, its not going to kill kids. The time between 3-30 is when we learn the most, why are we not trying to educate our kids to be all they can be academically?

Now, I'll address my second point.

the relevancy of what we teach is faulty. Take for example, the rise of spanish speaking immigrants in our own country, should we not be learning to be bi-lingual from the early beginnings? Now, lets take another look.

We aren't learning any new vocational skills for on the job either!

I think I've made this long enough, I'll stop before I rant too much.

Now I wait for someone to point out some spelling errors, and I laugh...
 

Kelzie

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Sorry, I don't agree. I've been stuck in advanced programs since grade school. And that's in CO, which is 49th in state funding. The programs are there for those that chose. Surely you at least had AP in high school?
 

128shot

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They always complained my math grade was too low at a B-

ugh.

Still, the relevancy isn't there. we need more vocational training.
 
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The inner city public school system doesn't intentionally try to make students fail in life...only it's students are responsible for that. The schools simply don't have enough money to provide a system equall to what we see in outside public schools and private schools.
 

Diogenes

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Agreed that we should be teaching more than a phony self-esteem, and a child should master the material at one grade level before being promoted to the next grade.

Disagreed that we should be bilingual from the beginning, mainly because our schools are doing such a lousy job of even teaching English. I watched a rerun of Blackboard Jungle (a 1955 movie about an English teacher in an inner city high school) last night, and we have gone backwards in the last 50 years.
 

128shot

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warning to the wise.

I get worked up over education, since it matters so dearly to me (I've been self taught from a certain point in my life, its payoffs are huge)

Just a side note, so i don't intentionally insult anyone.

anyway.

I disagree, we should be teaching bi-ling skills, because they're nessarcy, its not a choice anymore, its pretty much nessarcy.
 

Kelzie

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128shot said:
They always complained my math grade was too low at a B-

ugh.

Still, the relevancy isn't there. we need more vocational training.

I think that schools teach as much material as they can already...unless you are advocating pushing back the graduation date...
 

128shot

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how is making someone work harder pushing back grad date?
 

Kelzie

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128shot said:
how is making someone work harder pushing back grad date?

For the people who want to work harder, there is AP. I think that is more valuable than vocational training. For those who can't work harder, where exactly, do you plan on sticking in vocational training while you're trying to get them to learn the basic skills.
 

128shot

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Senior year.

Admit it, most people waste it, lets finally put it to use.
 
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Kelzie said:
I think that schools teach as much material as they can already...unless you are advocating pushing back the graduation date...

In my opinion we should have a school system like that of the UK. We decide what we want to do with our lives in Highschool and learn material relevant to that..not a myriad of other subjects. When they go to college and are curious about the other subjects then they can sign up for those classes out of their own free will in addition to taking courses relevant to their career. I'm going to be a history professor..I shouldn't have to learn mathematical formulas and scientific theories if I don't want to because it's entirely irrelevant to my career.
 

128shot

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no, but its part of ever going life..

but many people have pointed out to me you don't need highly advanced math for most every day things.
 

nkgupta80

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In my opinion we should have a school system like that of the UK. We decide what we want to do with our lives in Highschool and learn material relevant to that..not a myriad of other subjects. When they go to college and are curious about the other subjects then they can sign up for those classes out of their own free will in addition to taking courses relevant to their career. I'm going to be a history professor..I shouldn't have to learn mathematical formulas and scientific theories if I don't want to because it's entirely irrelevant to my career.

They don't teach these core subjects because it may be relavent to your career. It transcends that. What math teaches you is analytical thinking, problem solving, deductive reasoning...skills that are very necessary in the real world. What science teaches other very important skills, as does history, english, etc.

In response to our educational standards, compared to other school systems in the world our standards are not up to par... The advanced classes I'd take here would be the standards in other countries. Math, especially in elementary school, is getting worse and worse. THere are always exceptions depending on the teacher. But the only proof you need to these remedial teaching methods are the elementary math books... im sorry but they are pretty useless and retarded.
 

IndiConservative

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This page offers some pretty eye opening information.

"In Advanced Math U.S. students scored next to last, world-wide. In Physics the U.S. scored at the very bottom of the heap."

"for 2003 reported America's 15 year old students performed "significantly below average," ranking 29th out of 34 nations."

"Achieve, Inc., a bipartisan, nonprofit education organization formed by governors and prominent business leaders, found that math and English tests for high school diplomas require only middle school knowledge, and that those math graduation tests measure only what students in other countries learn in the seventh grade"

If its true thats pretty bad. Take it for is.

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education.htm
 

Thinker

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
In my opinion we should have a school system like that of the UK. We decide what we want to do with our lives in Highschool and learn material relevant to that..not a myriad of other subjects.

"The grass is always greener..." Without commenting on the relative merits or
demerits of either system, I must observe that all UK governments seem to
delight in fiddling with the system and trying to make it more like the US one!

You are perhaps not aware that England and Scotland have different
education systems. In broad terms, the Scottish system encourages a
reasonable breadth of knowledge while the English one demands early
specialisation. Sadly, even that distinction is being eroded.

I believe constrained generalisation is better, because, without exception,
the people who have had the greatest influence on my life had the ability to
draw on otherwise separate subjects to illuminate discussion. My chemistry
teacher, for example, would often illustrate his lessons with comments about
the historical background to scientific advances.

I'm going to be a history professor..I shouldn't have to learn mathematical formulas and scientific theories if I don't want to because it's entirely irrelevant to my career.

I would suggest that history is a poorer subject without a basic
understanding of the science, mathematics, and languages of the times
and places.

I learned latin and geometry at school; today, latin has almost completely
disappeared and geometry is fading fast. These "irrelevant" subjects have
been extremely useful in my life, but not directly. Latin gave me a clearer
understanding of the structure of language and formal systems. Geometry
was the only subject where the concept of proof (as distinct from example)
became clear.
 

128shot

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Schools are dumbing down plain and simple, here in the USA.

This tells me two things.

The US government wants us to be sheep and unaware

and there is a moderate amount of control going on in school.

Call me a conspiracy guy or whatever, but historically isn't this how it started?
 

kal-el

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School-age children are being taught courses that will be completely out of date by the time they have completed them. That is terrible! What was taught in school 10 years ago is completely irrelevant in today's marketplace.

What we are teaching the children today, dosen't correspond to tomorrow's needs. They spend hours learning how to type, to write short hand, and at the same time, boardless computers are in the process of being designed with microchips that will record their speech and place their words right on the screen! If we continue to teach students what we did a few years ago, we won't be preparing them for the future. What we need to do is teach them what we will be doing tomorrow. Of course, that's risky, but we need to teach the youth how to take risks.
 

nkgupta80

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ur argument may be a problem in the near future.. but the bigger problem is the overall undermining of math and science in US schools. Our population is becoming less and less oriented towards science, research, and engineering. And our basic school system is giving more and more of a mediocre education in math and science. Boostin a child's self-esteem is favored over the academic rigour of the curriculum.
 

Thinker

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kal-el said:
School-age children are being taught courses that will be completely out of date by the time they have completed them. That is terrible! What was taught in school 10 years ago is completely irrelevant in today's marketplace.
I assume you mean that a few of the courses might be out of date. It is clearly
true that the majority of courses don't have a "sell by" date: history,
mathematics, much science, literature, sport...

What we are teaching the children today, dosen't correspond to tomorrow's needs.
What crystal ball are we supposed to use to scry tomorrow's needs?


They spend hours learning how to type, to write short hand, and at the same time, boardless computers are in the process of being designed with microchips that will record their speech and place their words right on the screen!

Perhaps it's different where you are, but I know of no school that teaches
shorthand.

I've no idea what "boardless computers" are, but I suspect input devices
such as keyboards will be with us for a very long time to come. Spoken
language is a very poor mechanism for the efficient transmission of certain
types of data. There are some speech recognition programs that are
extremely useful for people how can't use a keyboard for physical reasons,
but typing is generally faster and more effective.

If we continue to teach students what we did a few years ago, we won't be preparing them for the future. What we need to do is teach them what we will be doing tomorrow. Of course, that's risky, but we need to teach the youth how to take risks.
So you would advocate stopping teaching mathematics, sciences, language,
philosophy, sport, history,...? I have no doubt that there are a few things
currently being taught that will be outdated before very long, but we have
little idea what they may be and no idea whatsoever what will replace them.

In my opinion, many of the problems with education today come from
believing that it involves stuffing information into children's heads. The word
education comes from a Latin term meaning "to draw out". I believe
education should be a processor of finding and enhancing the inate abilities
of children. We should teach them how to use their faculties to learn. As I
have mentioned before, even "useless" subjects like latin and geometry can
be valuable as examples of formal systems that can be used to view the
world.

Taking risks is fine, but it would be foolish in the extreme to encourage this
without also developing an ability to determine which risks are acceptable
and which aren't.
 
H

HTColeman

128shot said:
Lets throw BS politics out the window for a minute or two. (I know, its hard, but we can do it)

I've been mulling, and thinking, I've a thread on this before, but my view has changed dramatically since then.


There are 2 things I want to address in our current average classroom.

The relevancy of what we teach,

and our average standards.

Honestly, I know already, that the USA's public school system is geared toward the lowsest person on average, I think personally we should be gearted toward the highest

I wouldn't mind encouraging self-education, but thats another subject.

Now, I've heard all the arguements before, "OH! kids will fail if you put the stresses to hard" I disagree.

All this means is more work, its not going to kill kids. The time between 3-30 is when we learn the most, why are we not trying to educate our kids to be all they can be academically?

Now, I'll address my second point.

the relevancy of what we teach is faulty. Take for example, the rise of spanish speaking immigrants in our own country, should we not be learning to be bi-lingual from the early beginnings? Now, lets take another look.

We aren't learning any new vocational skills for on the job either!

I think I've made this long enough, I'll stop before I rant too much.

Now I wait for someone to point out some spelling errors, and I laugh...

Some of the hardest working students get bad grades, some of the laziest are at the top of their class. Don't cater to the highest because many can't keep up. Then more dropouts, then more poverty. However, many schools are set up on at least two, if not three, levels of learning. Advanced, regular, and remidial. I'd say that covers everyone.

Second point, vocational study is for college. It is impossible to teach vocational skills because everyone has different vocations. We may want to incorporate life skills in classes though, financial discipline, learn about credit, etc.
 

mrgrinch09

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We should always set our standards high. There are always those kids who are going to rise to the challenge and those who don't.

Even kids in schools now say that they want to be challenged more to help them prepare for college and later life.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9007694/

There are lots of bright kids out there who are looking for a challenge. If you set expectations higher, you'll get higher achievment.
:bright:
 

ludahai

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IndiConservative said:
This page offers some pretty eye opening information.

"In Advanced Math U.S. students scored next to last, world-wide. In Physics the U.S. scored at the very bottom of the heap."

"for 2003 reported America's 15 year old students performed "significantly below average," ranking 29th out of 34 nations."

"Achieve, Inc., a bipartisan, nonprofit education organization formed by governors and prominent business leaders, found that math and English tests for high school diplomas require only middle school knowledge, and that those math graduation tests measure only what students in other countries learn in the seventh grade"

If its true thats pretty bad. Take it for is.

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education.htm

I took a brief look at that site and two things jumped out at me. It talks about SAT scores compared to money spent. Today, far more students take the SAT than in the 1960s. Back then, the best students took the SAT. Even in the late 1980s, in NH, nearly 3/4 of students were taking the SAT. This would bring the average score down.

Also, compared to other countries, ALL U.S. students to go comprehensive high schools and are typically calculated in such statistics. Not all countries do that. Some countries actually start separating students in middle school into academic track schools and non-academic track schools. Here in Taiwan, only those in academic high schools would take such tests. Those in vocational or agricultural high schools would not. That would bring down the U.S. average compared to countries that run a system similiar to Taiwan's.
 

Kelzie

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ludahai said:
I DO advocate lengthening the school year and perhaps even the school day.

Yeah I don't have a problem with that. You go right ahead. :lol:
 
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