E.P.A. Plans to Shut Down the Energy Star Program (2 Viewers)

[ALiberalModerate]

Don't you see. It's all about the shareholders. **** consumer swine!

It isn't even that. Trump hasn't been good for shareholders. Its just trolling - own the libs, in the form of government.

 

[dcsports]

Nope. They were forced to do so because buyers wanted that.

Buyers wanting something = incentive

Without buyers seeking more efficient appliances, the companies wouldn't do anything.

Why would buyers now suddenly want less efficient appliances?

 

[Tettsuo]

Buyers wanting something = incentive

Why would buyers now suddenly want less efficient appliances?

I think you've missed the point. If left up to their own devices, the companies wouldn't put the effort and money into making more efficient goods. Buyers are the driving force behind the change. This would be in conflict with your previous statement.

 

[NJBob]

Why would buyers now suddenly want less efficient appliances?

It’s a MAGA thing.

 

[Visbek]

Don't you think companies have a natural incentive to promote the efficiency of their products?

Some do. Many don't. Many also have an incentive to lie about the efficiency of their products.

Energy Star provides a consistent and independent measure.

The program cost a measly $30 million to administer. It's saved consumers $40 billion per year in energy costs.

It's saved consumers $500 billion in energy costs since 1992.

Why is it getting shut down? Mostly because we have an insane dictator, who claims that he can't buy high pressure shower heads anymore. Obviously this is bullshit.

Even the administration's excuse is nonsense, claiming that it "increases costs" for consumers. Wanna bet that any alleged savings won't lower prices?

It's screamingly obvious that this isn't getting shut down because it's causing a problem. It's getting shut down because it actually works. And we can't have a government that actually functions, let alone helps citizens, right...?

 

[coyote505]

Well that does make it easier for domestic factories built on a shoestring - in response to a fabricated void - to compete with better built foreign appliances when they do not have to fret over adhering to those pesky metrics

My current 16 lb washer probably got an energy star. The Obamanation required the elimination of 20 lb washers. What it means is that, where my old washer could wash 5 pairs of jeans and 5 denim work shirts, my current one can only do 4 of each. Yaah! Energy Star.

 

[CaughtInThe]

It’s like all the progress the country made over the last century are getting undone by a mad king.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Buyers wanting something = incentive


Why would buyers now suddenly want less efficient appliances?

If you were shopping for a new vehicle and the government no longer required fuel economy information on the sticker, how would you know which vehicle was more efficient?

 

[ScrambledEggs]

My current 16 lb washer probably got an energy star. The Obamanation required the elimination of 20 lb washers. What it means is that, where my old washer could wash 5 pairs of jeans and 5 denim work shirts, my current one can only do 4 of each. Yaah! Energy Star.

Real cowboys wash their clothes in the creek

 

[Fledermaus]

Several car manufacturers have been caught lying about their vehicles' emissions, primarily through the use of "defeat devices" that allow them to bypass emissions tests during laboratory conditions but not in real-world driving. Volkswagen's diesel emissions scandal is a prominent example, where the company was found to have installed software that manipulated emissions test results. Other manufacturers have also been implicated, including BMW, Daimler, and Toyota

because companies never lie! lol

Heeheee

I bought a Jetta TDI used low miles. Drove the hell out of it and then turned it in under their buy back program. Kelly Blue Book for 3 years prior + cash ( Can't remember how much) and additional cash from Bosch ($300 IIRC). It allowed me enough cash to buy a Mazda3, manual transmission for no additional costs.

 

[BitterPill]

Don't you think companies have a natural incentive to promote the efficiency of their products?

For profit companies overarching incentive is to make a profit, the more the better.

All else is secondary.

 

[dcsports]

If you were shopping for a new vehicle and the government no longer required fuel economy information on the sticker, how would you know which vehicle was more efficient?

The same way you do now.

This doesn't mean that manufacturers won't include the information on the sticker, or that they won't be requiring them to do so (details not released yet). They just probably won't be certified by the government with a blue sticker.

 

[coyote505]

If so, then they have an incentive to lie about their efficiency. An independent, nonindustry funded reliable source for the information would be useful for consumers.

But, usefulness for consumers is something we apparently can’t have because billionaires need tax cuts.

UL? Consumer Reports? Road and Track?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

The same way you do now.

This doesn't mean that manufacturers won't include the information on the sticker, or that they won't be requiring them to do so (details not released yet). They just probably won't be certified by the government with a blue sticker.

If there is no standardization between testing, then what they put on the sticker is worthless. You would have to depend on Consumer Reports testing or something like that. If they don't replace the energy star program with reliability testing mandates, we will just end up with appliances that use more energy, but don't last any longer. There isn't much competition for domestic appliance manufacturers with most of the market controlled by either GE or Whirlpool.

 

[dcsports]

If there is no standardization between testing, then what they put on the sticker is worthless. You would have to depend on Consumer Reports testing or something like that. If they don't replace the energy star program with reliability testing mandates, we will just end up with appliances that use more energy, but don't last any longer. There isn't much competition for domestic appliance manufacturers with most of the market controlled by either GE or Whirlpool.

Again, we're not sure what 'wind down' means - they discuss not doing the certification. That doesn't mean there won't be testing standards, or that they couldn't be established by an industry association.

 

[Visbek]

The same way you do now.

Yeah, not so much.

This doesn't mean that manufacturers won't include the information on the sticker, or that they won't be requiring them to do so (details not released yet).

That is EXACTLY what canceling the Energy Star program will do.

They just probably won't be certified by the government with a blue sticker.

What you're missing is that the government operates as a consistent and neutral source of information about the information in question.

It's routine for companies to make up their own standards and use biased tests. If your product isn't as efficient, do you really want your consumers to know that? No.

Even companies that want to be ethical will have issues, because there won't be clear, consistent, independent, universal standards that consumers easily understand; and they'll have to compete against unscrupulous companies that will have no qualms about confusing buyers.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Trump Administration Plans to End Ban on Lead in Paint
MAGA response: "Leaded paint lasted longer... Consumers should have more choice..."

 

[Absentglare]

Again, we're not sure what 'wind down' means - they discuss not doing the certification. That doesn't mean there won't be testing standards, or that they couldn't be established by an industry association.

They’ve done studies on this, you know.

It saves consumers and businesses more than $39 billion in avoided energy costs annually and sharply reduces greenhouse gas emissions – all with a budget of less than $39 million.

ENERGY STAR Facts

Doubling ENERGY STAR: Reducing Energy Bills, Cutting Emissions, and Driving Economic Growth ENERGY STAR is among the most popular and effective public-private partnerships in the federal government. Nine out of 10 people recognize its trademark logo, and nearly two-thirds of consumers say it has...

www.ase.org

 

[dcsports]

Yeah, not so much.

Absolutely. You can look at the information from the manufacturer, including on the 'sticker'. As well as the retailer and online reviews. Not to mention something you didn't have 30 years ago - online reviews from other people who have purchased the appliances.

That is EXACTLY what canceling the Energy Star program will do.

Pure speculation, without much support. They said 'wind down' with the focus on the energy star certification itself. There's no reason to think they would eliminate labeling or testing standards.

What you're missing is that the government operates as a consistent and neutral source of information about the information in question.

It's routine for companies to make up their own standards and use biased tests. If your product isn't as efficient, do you really want your consumers to know that? No.

Even companies that want to be ethical will have issues, because there won't be clear, consistent, independent, universal standards that consumers easily understand; and they'll have to compete against unscrupulous companies that will have no qualms about confusing buyers.

Except, it's not always consistent or neutral, is it? And it still relies on testing and reporting by the manufacturer. And again, there's no reason to think they'll also ditch labeling or testing standards.

 

[Visbek]

Absolutely. You can look at the information from the manufacturer....

Keep reading.

As well as the retailer and online reviews.

Retailers and online reviewers don't hire EPA-recognized labs to test the energy efficiency of thousands of products using a consistent set of guidelines.

Companies won't do it either. We know this because they definitely didn't do it before the *cough* voluntary Energy Star program existed, and that is why Bush 41 started the program.

Hey, do you remember when Republicans actually gave a shit about consumers? I don't. I guess I missed a little something.

Not to mention something you didn't have 30 years ago - online reviews from other people who have purchased the appliances.

Consumers definitely don't test hundreds of products for energy efficiency using independent labs and consistent protocols.

Pure speculation, without much support.

They said 'wind down' with the focus on the energy star certification itself. There's no reason to think they would eliminate labeling or testing standards.

Employees were explicitly told that the EPA was "eliminating" the program. Stop gaslighting.

Except, it's not always consistent or neutral, is it? And it still relies on testing and reporting by the manufacturer.

Nope, wrong. Manufacturers need to use EPA-Recognized Certification Bodies (CBs) and Laboratories.

All ENERGY STAR certified products are subject to post-market verification testing (VT) administered by CBs, irrespective of when they were initially certified. Brand owners must be responsive to CB requests for information and payment for this testing.

Verification Testing of Products

www.energystar.gov

EPA-Recognized Certification Bodies (CBs) and Laboratories

www.energystar.gov

So yes, it is independent, neutral, and consistent. I can't say that every single test at every single lab is perfectly executed, but there is no evidence whatsoever of wide-spread flaws in the Energy Star program.

Spare us the libertarian garbage. If the government doesn't mandate and regulate testing, it's either not going to happen, or it's going to be inconsistent; and at least some manufacturers will manipulate the specs to fool consumers.

 

[dcsports]

Retailers and online reviewers don't hire EPA-recognized labs to test the energy efficiency of thousands of products using a consistent set of guidelines.

Companies won't do it either. We know this because they definitely didn't do it before the *cough* voluntary Energy Star program existed, and that is why Bush 41 started the program.
[deflection removed]

Again, there's nothing saying that the testing and labeling standards are being eliminated. And they absolutely have incentive to market and sell appliances.

Consumers definitely don't test hundreds of products for energy efficiency using independent labs and consistent protocols. [Deflection removed]

The question was how people will make decisions. And consumers absolutely USE thousands of products, providing valuable information about their use and reliability.

Nope, wrong. Manufacturers need to use EPA-Recognized Certification Bodies (CBs) and Laboratories.

All ENERGY STAR certified products are subject to post-market verification testing (VT) administered by CBs, irrespective of when they were initially certified. Brand owners must be responsive to CB requests for information and payment for this testing.

Verification Testing of Products

www.energystar.gov

EPA-Recognized Certification Bodies (CBs) and Laboratories

www.energystar.gov

So yes, it is independent, neutral, and consistent. I can't say that every single test at every single lab is perfectly executed, but there is no evidence whatsoever of wide-spread flaws in the Energy Star program.

[Deflection removed]

There's always bias in government programs, but that's a side note. But there's no reason that manufacturers and industry associations couldn't maintain the same standards.

 

[Rumblefish]

The question was how people will make decisions. And consumers absolutely USE thousands of products, providing valuable information about their use and reliability.

Consumer reviews for appliance electric consumption efficiency is problematic for several reasons.

First, no individual consumer is actually measuring the actual amount of electric energy an appliance is using. You can’t do it by using your electric meter (well you can’t do it easily) because it’s not that sensitive.

Second, you can’t use your energy bill to make the comparison either because the cost of electricity varies widely from one location to another.

Third, anyone who actually reads (closely) on line reviews knows that consumers post reviews for product A under similar (but not same) product B. I’m currently shopping for a new desktop and frequently see reviews for Intel i5, 1TB SSD, GeForce 4020 8GB under i7, 2TB SSD, GeForce 4060 ti all the time. Close, but no cigar.

 

[Deuce]

Don't you think companies have a natural incentive to promote the efficiency of their products?

Don't you think they have a natural incentive to be full of shit?

 

[Deuce]

Buyers wanting something = incentive


Why would buyers now suddenly want less efficient appliances?

They wouldn't, but they'd be less able to determine what appliances are more efficient.

 

[roberthughey]

Don't you think companies have a natural incentive to promote the efficiency of their products?

You won the prize.

Use your common sense.

The customer expects it to be there because it's important to them. It's been in place since 1992.

Which appliance would you buy, the one with the rating or the one without?

People will chose the one with the rating.