• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

DREAMERS still getting deported! YEEE HAAAA GO JOE!

I think the only thing left to do is to arm these poor immigrants so that they might defend themselves against the armed costumed thugs being sent against them by the state. It's a good thing they didn't pass that background check bill.
 
My use of the word "military" was a descriptor, as in armed men/women conducted a surprise attack upon unarmed civilians, legal or illegal, law abiding citizens or criminals.

You can continue to pretend they raided these businesses with water guns and flowers all you want:lol:

And you can keep trying to make it sound like a bigger deal than it really is by calling them military raids when they were raids carried out by the police force.
 
Scuze me while I shed a tear for entitled USA residents who don't bother getting an education or job skills and complain about illegal aliens taking their jobs. 99% of the complainers wouldn't last a day picking watermelons or grapes in the summer heat. When I see people born here hanging out at the lumber store seeking day work, I'll believe that immigrants are actually taking jobs that Americans can or will work.

I'll also shed a tear for all the bigoted idiots who thinks that they are oppressed by seeing an occasional billboard or sign in another language.

I see Citizens working in the summer heat all the time. I do live in farm country after all. And Citizens don't need to line up at Home Depot for the simple fact that we have other avenues open to us that will help us get jobs. Sorry but the "citizens won't do X job" won't work on me. I know better from personal experiance. I have lived from Northern Idaho to South and North Carolina to Washington state and Oregon and several states in between. I myself have worked those fields and know what its like. From picking strawberries to large tree nursury work. And in each of those farms guess what I saw? Other citizens working the same job every single season.

Now don't get me wrong, I know quite well that illegals do those jobs to. Just saying that the whole "illegals will do the jobs citizens won't do" is big time BS.
 
I doubt that is true, but i don't have the info on hand. Do you think immigrants risk their lives going through miles of treacherous deserts, living in fear under the radar, and working ****ty under the table jobs because they are just too lazy to enter legally?

View attachment 67146836

Actually last I checked about 75% of working age illegals work with full pay due to them using fake and stolen identities.

Illegal, but Not Undocumented

•Illegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment

•Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.

•Illegal immigration and high levels of identity theft go hand-in-hand. States with the most illegal immigration also have high levels of job-related identity theft. In Arizona, 33 percent or all identity theft is job-related (as opposed to identity theft motivated simply by profit). In Texas it is 27 percent; in New Mexico, 23 percent; in Colorado, 22 percent; California, 20 percent; and in Nevada, 16 percent. Eight of the 10 states with the highest percentage of illegal aliens in their total population are among the top 10 states in identity theft (Arizona, California, Florida, Texas, Nevada, New York, Georgia, and Colorado).

• Children are prime targets. In Arizona, it is estimated that over one million children are victims of identity theft. In Utah, 1,626 companies were found to be paying wages to the SSNs of children on public assistance under the age of 13. These individuals suffer very real and very serious consequences in their lives.
 
Nah, I think I'll skip it. hopefully, an amnesty is coming.

also, what's a "movment?"

That movement would be 33 million new uneducated, unskilled, probably poor and very likely wanting free stuff that will be coming legally as immigrants if that amnesty does pass in Congress.
 
Were they armed incursions upon defenseless civilians? Yes or no?

"armed incursions" =/= military raids. Your insistance that they should be considered "military raids" is nothing more than hyperbolic emotional partisanship. There is a clear difference between the Military and the Civilian Police force.

And them being "defenseless" is irrelevent. The illegals broke the law. The raids were justified on that basis alone.
 
Bold: Really? Regardless if they found criminals or not? And if they found a bunch of criminals planning a bank robbery would you feel the same? Assuming you don't want to be hypocritical anyways.

Correct. I believe wantonly conducting armed incursions upon businesses, as evidenced by the results here, is worse than ID theft and/or a bank robbery.

There is more than just the "LAW ACT of 2007" (which "law act" anyways?) for laws about illegal aliens ya know.

Legal Arizona Workers Act

https://www.azag.gov/legal-az-workers-act
The Legal Arizona Workers Act, as amended, prohibits businesses from knowingly or intentionally hiring an “unauthorized alien” after December 31, 2007. Under the statute, an “unauthorized alien” is defined as “an alien who does not have the legal right or authorization under federal law to work in the United States.” The law also requires employers in Arizona to use the “E-Verify” system (a free Web-based service offered by the federal Department of Homeland Security) to verify the employment authorization of all new employees hired after December 31, 2007.

Either you're an anarchist, which so far from the posts I have seen of yours indicates, or you are a pro-illegal just trying to make excuses to rail against anything that happens against illegal aliens.

I am a law-abiding United States Citizen voicing my concern over the wasteful and misguided attempts at addressing the issue that is illegal immigration. I understand well the problems caused by illegal immigration, and wish to be rid of them one day.

ID theft needs to be attacked directly, not by going after those who have successfully obtained false identification in the name of the LAW Act via raids.

What are the effects of these raids in Arizona?

1. Has employment for legal citizens increased or decreased?
2. Has ID theft increased or decreased?
3. Has government spending increased or decreased?
4. Has illegal immigration increased or decreased?
5. How has the economy benefited from these raids?
 
"armed incursions" =/= military raids. Your insistance that they should be considered "military raids" is nothing more than hyperbolic emotional partisanship. There is a clear difference between the Military and the Civilian Police force.

And them being "defenseless" is irrelevent. The illegals broke the law. The raids were justified on that basis alone.

There is no difference between the military and police to unarmed civilians.

3 of the raids were justified, 67 were not.
 
Correct. I believe wantonly conducting armed incursions upon businesses, as evidenced by the results here, is worse than ID theft and/or a bank robbery.

If it was "wantonly" don't you think that more buisnesses would have been raided? After all there are millions of illegals in AZ. Surely 70 buisnesses raided over a 5 year period cannot honestly be deemed "wantonly". Also what evidence do you have that those buisnesses were not investigated before those raids? You do know that an investigation must first take place before any such raid right? And if there is sufficient investigation then that too would discount it being "wantonly".

Results =/= "wantonly". Indeed for all you know some of those buisnesses may have been warned before they were raided due to an investigation turning up that the buisness owners were clear of any wrong doing...which means they had the buisness owners permission...imagine that huh?

Legal Arizona Workers Act

https://www.azag.gov/legal-az-workers-act
The Legal Arizona Workers Act, as amended, prohibits businesses from knowingly or intentionally hiring an “unauthorized alien” after December 31, 2007. Under the statute, an “unauthorized alien” is defined as “an alien who does not have the legal right or authorization under federal law to work in the United States.” The law also requires employers in Arizona to use the “E-Verify” system (a free Web-based service offered by the federal Department of Homeland Security) to verify the employment authorization of all new employees hired after December 31, 2007.

Ok...so it coincides with Federal law on the subject...whats the problem again?



I am a law-abiding United States Citizen voicing my concern over the wasteful and misguided attempts at addressing the issue that is illegal immigration. I understand well the problems caused by illegal immigration, and wish to be rid of them one day.

Yes, i'm sure you are...let me guess...through amnesty and open borders?

ID theft needs to be attacked directly, not by going after those who have successfully obtained false identification in the name of the LAW Act via raids.

You have got to be freaking kidding me! DON'T go after people that successfully still childrens identities and falsify federal documents? So if I stole your identity and maxed out your credit you have no problem with it?

What are the effects of these raids in Arizona?

Less illegals working in AZ.

1. Has employment for legal citizens increased or decreased?

I'm sure I could look up employment statistics for you but considering there are many factors to increases or decreases in employment you would just shrug it off claim "correlation =/= causation".

2. Has ID theft increased or decreased?

Same as above with unemployment.

3. Has government spending increased or decreased?

Irrelevent.

4. Has illegal immigration increased or decreased?

More than likely increased since Obama is ignoring federal immigration law with his EO and giving at least temp amnesty to illegals.

5. How has the economy benefited from these raids?

Well, those employers had to hire replacements with legal citizens. Probably increased revenue a bit due to decreaseing those living on handouts due to not being able to find a job because illegals had them.
 
There is no difference between the military and police to unarmed civilians.

There is a HUGE difference. If you knew anything about the military vs civilian forces you would know this. Being armed does not = military.

3 of the raids were justified, 67 were not.

They were all justified. Just because they didn't punish innocent civilians due to the actions of illegals committing fraud and identity theft does not make the raids any less valid.
 
I see Citizens working in the summer heat all the time. I do live in farm country after all. And Citizens don't need to line up at Home Depot for the simple fact that we have other avenues open to us that will help us get jobs. Sorry but the "citizens won't do X job" won't work on me. I know better from personal experiance. I have lived from Northern Idaho to South and North Carolina to Washington state and Oregon and several states in between. I myself have worked those fields and know what its like. From picking strawberries to large tree nursury work. And in each of those farms guess what I saw? Other citizens working the same job every single season.

Now don't get me wrong, I know quite well that illegals do those jobs to. Just saying that the whole "illegals will do the jobs citizens won't do" is big time BS.

WRAY, Ga., - One of the toughest laws yet to fight illegal immigration went into effect today in Georgia. A federal judge has temporarily blocked the most controversial provision - requiring police to check the immigration status of suspects who don't have proper identification.

But it is now a felony to use false documentation to apply for a job. CBS News correspondent Mark Strassmann says Georgia farmers have been anticipating this day, and the law is already having a big effect.

In south Georgia, it's a banner year for blackberries - but a bad year for berry farmer Gary Paulk.

"There's a lot of what appear to be good berries," Paulk said. "If we had the workers."

On one corner of this family farm, twenty acres of blackberries rot away.

"This is a healthy field. And it should have been picked," Paulk said. "But there's nobody here."

Despite economy, Americans don't want farm work

Too many Mexican and Guatemalan pickers this year stayed away. They're scared away by Georgia's new crackdown on illegal immigration......
Illegal immigration crackdown impacts harvests - CBS News

ONEONTA, Ala. – Facing the possibility of labor shortages due to Alabama's crackdown on illegal immigration, some of the state's farmers are planting less.

Keith Dickie said he and other growers in the heart of Alabama's tomato country didn't have any choice but to reduce acreage amid fears there won't be enough workers to pick the delicate fruit.

Some farmers lacked enough hands to harvest crops because immigrants fled the state after Gov. Robert Bentley signed the immigration law last fall, and some told The Associated Press they fear the same thing could happen this year.

Read more: Alabama Immigration Crackdown Prompts Farmers to Scale Back Production | Fox News Latino

Bitter Harvest: U.S. Farmers Blame Billion-Dollar Losses on Immigration Laws
By Alfonso SerranoSept. 21, 20120
Ralph and Cheryl Broetje rely on roughly 1,000 seasonal workers every year to grow and pack more than 6 million boxes of apples on their farm along the Snake River in eastern Washington. It’s a custom they’ve maintained for over two decades. Recently, though, their efforts to recruit skilled labor, mostly undocumented immigrants, have come up woefully short despite intensive recruitment efforts in an area with high rates of unemployment.

The Broetjes and an increasing number of farmers across the country say that a complex web of local and state anti-immigration laws account for acute labor shortages. With the harvest season in full bloom, stringent immigration laws have forced waves of undocumented immigrants to flee certain states for more-hospitable areas. In their wake, thousands of acres of crops have been left to rot in the fields, as farmers have struggled to compensate for labor shortages with domestic help.
U.S. Farmers Urge Changes to Immigration Law Amid Labor Shortage | TIME.com
 
For $2 an hour, low-security inmates convicted of nonviolent crimes harvest watermelons in Arizona, where farmers have been using prison labor for almost 20 years. The demand for the inmate workforce is growing as state and federal governments crack down on the use of undocumented workers, writes Nicole Hill of The Christian Science Monitor (who took the photo).

Hill reports that a similar program has begun in Colorado, another is being considered in Iowa, and the Arizona program has never been more in demand, especially since farmers there face state fines for employing undocumented workers. The program allows cleared prisoners — about 3,300 of the state’s 37,000 prisoners — to work on private land for a minimum of $2 per hour, Hill writes. The requests for labor far outnumber the ability of the Arizona Department of Corrections to fill them, Hill writes, so “the ADC is considering innovative solutions – including satellite prisons.”
The Rural Blog: In face of immigration crackdowns, farmers turn to inmates for labor in Southwest

Last April, the state of Georgia approved HB 87 — a tough new immigration reform law inspired by Arizona’s Senate Bill 1070 — which would give the state’s police officers the power to check the immigration status of anyone suspected of any crime, including traffic violations. The law also would impose prison sentences and fines on anyone who knowingly transports or harbors illegal immigrants, would require that all businesses in the state use E-Verify, the federal electronic identity verification system, to confirm that employees have legal authorization to work in the U.S., and would punish anyone who uses fake identification to get a job in the state with up to 15 years in prison and up to $250,000 in fines.

For the state’s farmers, the approval of the bill could not have come at a worse time. Like many states where the agriculture industry produces a lot of crops that must be harvested by hand, Georgia has come to depend on migrant laborers, who slowly work their way up from Florida to the Northeast and mid-Atlantic each year. In 2011, rumors of harsh treatment and potential deportation swept through the region’s Hispanic communities, and a large portion of the labor force simply passed through Georgia and neighboring Alabama, which had introduced a similar law of its own.

According to a survey conducted by the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association and analyzed by the University of Georgia’s Center for Agribusiness and Economic Development, this led to a shortage of more than 11,000 workers during the early summer harvest season. Combined spring season losses for the state’s blueberry, blackberry, watermelon, cucumber,

bell pepper, squash and onion crops totaled almost $75 million, according to the survey. On an annualized basis, losses would be almost $400 million, if Georgia’s farms can’t find a way to replace this lost workforce.

Read More: Growing Problem: Tough Immigration Laws Tough on Harvests | Produce content from Supermarket News
 
WRAY, Ga., - One of the toughest laws yet to fight illegal immigration went into effect today in Georgia. A federal judge has temporarily blocked the most controversial provision - requiring police to check the immigration status of suspects who don't have proper identification.
...........

For $2 an hour, low-security inmates convicted of nonviolent crimes harvest watermelons in Arizona, where farmers have been using prison labor for almost 20 years. The demand for the inmate workforce is growing as state and federal governments crack down on the use of undocumented workers, writes Nicole Hill of The Christian Science Monitor (who took the photo).............

Aww, poor babies. Maybe they should have relied more on citizens instead of illegals.

They can cry all that they want but look around the rest of the country. There are LOTS of farmers that do not use illegals and yet they are not having any trouble hiring people.
 
I suspect if given a choice most in the USA will prefer to have illegal aliens rather than pay 25% more for food.
 
There is no difference between the military and police to unarmed civilians.

.

You would have to explain that statement further. I am a civilian, I see a difference. I can see it rather I am armed or not.:doh
 
Scuze me while I shed a tear for entitled USA residents who don't bother getting an education or job skills and complain about illegal aliens taking their jobs. 99% of the complainers wouldn't last a day picking watermelons or grapes in the summer heat. When I see people born here hanging out at the lumber store seeking day work, I'll believe that immigrants are actually taking jobs that Americans can or will work.

I'll also shed a tear for all the bigoted idiots who thinks that they are oppressed by seeing an occasional billboard or sign in another language.

Citizens will take those jobs.

With min wage
workers comp
taxes paid for retirement (FICA)

and the "employers" refuse to pay this and violate USA laws. So To BAD for them........
 
WRAY, Ga., - One of the toughest laws yet to fight illegal immigration went into effect today in Georgia. A federal judge has temporarily blocked the most controversial provision - requiring police to check the immigration status of suspects who don't have proper identification.

Middle cut out....................
.
The Broetjes and an increasing number of farmers across the country say that a complex web of local and state anti-immigration laws account for acute labor shortages. With the harvest season in full bloom, stringent immigration laws have forced waves of undocumented immigrants to flee certain states for more-hospitable areas. In their wake, thousands of acres of crops have been left to rot in the fields, as farmers have struggled to compensate for labor shortages with domestic help.
U.S. Farmers Urge Changes to Immigration Law Amid Labor Shortage | TIME.com

What a crok............

"A lawsuit accuses a South Georgia farmer of discriminating against U.S. and black workers because of their race and national origin while giving better treatment to workers from Mexico.

The suit filed last week by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission seeks compensation on behalf of ex-workers at Hamilton Growers Inc. in Norman Park. A company attorney said she could not immediately comment. It alleges that the firm in 2009 let go the bulk of its U.S. workers but kept nearly all of its 370 workers from Mexico.

The next year, lawyers say the company terminated the majority of its 233 U.S. workers, but it kept the vast majority of its 518 workers from Mexico. The lawsuit also says that black workers got fewer hours and were forced into less-lucrative work"

or the Gorgia farmer how refused to hire Americans EVEN WHEN OFFERED FREE bus service for the them...........(sorry lost the link)

And the H2b (from memory) is WIDE OPEN for farmers to USE. but they REFUSE to......because then they have to pay legal wages......and
provide housing, and buses.......

OPPS and MORE.....

Federal lawsuit: Georgia farmer favored foreign workers over... | www.ajc.com

and whe n they cant get cheap foreign slaves, they get USA slaves.....(prisoners)

Vidalia farmers turn to prison system for harvest help after immigration crackdown – Eatocracy - CNN.com Blogs

Notice how they REFUSE TO PAY FOR LEGAL FARM WORKERS.........

The TRUTH from the FARMERS own MOUTH.

"She regularly gets calls from local folks, American citizens, she says, looking for farm work. The problem is, she says, they’re too expensive to pay. She could hire laborers on a guest worker visa, but there are additional costs like transportation and housing that make that option an expensive one."


Sorry charlie.......your propoganda is a lie.
 
Last edited:
You would have to explain that statement further. I am a civilian, I see a difference. I can see it rather I am armed or not.:doh

military uses UNLIMITED FORCE at all times. They are there to kill and not "arrest" or other things. Kill only at all costs.

Police are there to use LIMITED and as needed FORCE to arrest. And to rarely kill.

That is why we have

"The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of"
 
military uses UNLIMITED FORCE at all times. They are there to kill and not "arrest" or other things. Kill only at all costs.

Police are there to use LIMITED and as needed FORCE to arrest. And to rarely kill.

That is why we have

"The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of"

I know this. I was responding to JFrost. He stated "There is no difference between the military and police to unarmed civilians." JF gave no real reason for his statement.

Any reasonable person knows there is a difference.
 
military uses UNLIMITED FORCE at all times. They are there to kill and not "arrest" or other things. Kill only at all costs.

Police are there to use LIMITED and as needed FORCE to arrest. And to rarely kill.

That is why we have

"The Posse Comitatus Act is the United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385, original at 20 Stat. 152) that was passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of"

Naivety at it's finest.
 
And think of the USA jobs he is creating......

felony chanrges made the DREAM and US law dodging by Obama disapear!

___________________

It was obvious Veronica Perez had been crying. Her eyes were red and puffy as she stood in front of a microphone to speak Tuesday morning in Phoenix.

“My name is Veronica, and I am the mom of Zamira,” she said, holding back the tears. “My daughter has been detained for 90 days because she was working. They accused her of being a criminal, and she is in jail.”

Her daughter, Zamira Perez, was arrested on Jan. 11 while she was working at a telemarketing company using false documents. The 23-year-old Dreamer began working there after she graduated high school in 2008 and couldn’t afford to attend college because of a state law that requires undocumented immigrants to pay out-of-state tuition.

original link
Group: Arizona charges immigrants with felonies to ensure deportation


Good for Arizona, I hope other states follow suite.
 
Back
Top Bottom