- Joined
- Nov 11, 2011
- Messages
- 12,895
- Reaction score
- 2,909
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- Political Leaning
- Slightly Conservative
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ack-algerian-gas-field-14.html#post1061370887
actually support for radicalism, though seemingly maintaining a minority, can represent a pretty significant segment of the population within some countries (i recall seeing figures like 20% before for support, maybe more). But the real issue is hardcore fundamentalism which does seem to represent a majority, or very close to it
I think both radicalism and fundamentalism are absolutely horrible, and I'd gladly rid the earth of both. The definition of fundamentalism, however, can very easily be applied to just about any religion, especially christianity.
Most muslims aren't lucky enough to live in such a secular society that will hold them accountible for their actions.
So all in all, the bible and the koran are equally as violent, but their countries just haven't reached the intellectual capacity that ours has.
lol, not this again. Again, while I recognize that christian history and even the biblare full of violence, you can't really compare their modern incarnations. In point of fact, the survey I quoted earlier gives levels of of support for apostasy executions at 84% in egypt, and "moderate Indonesia rates at 30% support. Though a minority, that is an insanely significant percentage of the population.
I know of no main stream christian movements that even come close to adopting such views. Hell, even Fred Phelps doesn't call for the killing of gays, but Yusuf al-Qaradawi openly calls for killing them on his hugely popular tv show
Again, are there violent fringe elements within Christianity? Yes, undoubtedly so. Are you likely to find large majority segments of the christian population supporting the death penalty over heresy? Absolutely not.
Why? because Christianity has largely been modernized through actions like the reformation.
Islam not so much. In Islam literalism seems to be the rule, not the exception. Hence large swaths of the population supporting execution for things like apostasy
Personally nothing would make me happier if religion didn't exist at all. But I just find it ridiculous when christians (not saying you are) point their fingers at muslims for being violent, while their religion is equally violent. Neither religion has fundamentally changed over the last 1000 years, only society's reaction to it.Yes, I am well aware of the issues within Islamic culture and society. That's why I have been writing about them while you deny their existence and claim the issue only rests with a small minority. Not sure it absolves anyone from personal responsibility though. Being that 80% of the Egyptian population isn't farming dirt clods and communicating with stick figures in the dirt. And people decide to remove themselves from these ideals and conditions all the time.
Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No
Your argument is based entirely on the fact that islam and christianity are separated by about 300 years, but in reality, other than that, they are completely identical.
It wasn't the christians who woke up one day and decided to stop listening to their holy book, it was the secular society that decided to stop letting them.
Personally nothing would make me happier if religion didn't exist at all. But I just find it ridiculous when christians (not saying you are) point their fingers at muslims for being violent, while their religion is equally violent. Neither religion has fundamentally changed over the last 1000 years, only society's reaction to it.
This is nonsense speak. There should (doctrine being equal) no worldwide difference in development except for the backwards precepts of Islam.Your argument is based entirely on the fact that islam and christianity are separated by about 300 years, but in reality, other than that, they are completely identical. It wasn't the christians who woke up one day and decided to stop listening to their holy book, it was the secular society that decided to stop letting them.
Christianity is Much less scripturally (and in practice) Violent that Islam.RabidAlpaca said:Personally nothing would make me happier if religion didn't exist at all. But I just find it ridiculous when christians (not saying you are) point their fingers at muslims for being violent, while their religion is equally violent. Neither religion has fundamentally changed over the last 1000 years, only society's reaction to it.
....What was challenged was your continuous claims that Christianity "has never changed" and that the levels of violence between the two are currently comparable.
Both are clearly not true.
Yes, if you ignore all the ways you are wrong, and all the points I raised above, I can see the cause for frustration ... But beyond that, religion can and often does change in response to social trends. See the various christian churches that now accept homosexuality on some level
I agree that Christianity in practice has changed in many ways. So has Islam in practice in many places. However,on the violence scale, Islam is way behind Christianity if you include all the wars. WWII alone puts the Christians ahead in violence.
(only communist dictators Stalin and Mao top the Christians in the last century.) There's also all the USA's bombing wars and occupation, the "secret" wars by stealth and proxy ,and Europe's attempts to hold onto their empires.
Of course, you will say that these wars were not driven directly by religion, and you'll be partially right, but the overall North American-European/Capitalist/Christian worldview has proven to be one of the world's most deadly. We're the people that invented the guillotine, the machine gun, the gas chamber and the nuclear bomb.
"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
Jesus
I guess you missed about 1,000 years of our history where the bible was taken literally and society let them run amok. Their society hasn't evolved, and they're still allowing religion to terrorize their people. Luckily we put a muzzle on christianity, I can't wait until the middle east does the same with islam.A Christian Fundamentalist is a Missionary, a Muslim Fundamentalist Kills him.
I guess you missed about 1,000 years of our history where the bible was taken literally and society let them run amok. Their society hasn't evolved, and they're still allowing religion to terrorize their people. Luckily we put a muzzle on christianity, I can't wait until the middle east does the same with islam.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-26.html#post1061373339I deny that anywhere near a majority of muslims are violent.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-27.html#post1061373417Whether 500 years ago, or today, neither religions have changed in over 1000 years.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-27.html#post1061373453Christianity is founded entirely on the bible, and the bible hasn't changed in over 1500 years.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-27.html#post1061373453That's right, you're just saying most are, not all.
Being that this branch of the discussion started out with you and others claiming something totally different
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-26.html#post1061373339
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-27.html#post1061373417
and vigorously defending it
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-27.html#post1061373453
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...rian-gas-field-w-280-a-27.html#post1061373453
the attempt to move the goal posts here are rather blatant . Normally I wouldn't be a dick about such things, but your propensity to make vague insults, out right attempts to distort and mischaracterize arguments you disagree with, endlessly repeating yourself, and outright refusal to even acknowledge evidence that goes against your own personal beliefs, while making attempts to buff your own credentials as some type of enlightened rationalist, proved to be a particularly annoying combination.
I suggest that in the future you might take time off from posting and spend some time studying basic logic, with particular focus on the formal and informal fallacies
I've remained intellectually consistent through all of this.
I've claimed that the religions themselves are violent
but the individual practitioners of those religions are not inherently violent because of a group of fringe radicals.
So I'll restate my point, so you can try to BS me again about what you actually believe: A relatively small percentage of muslim terrorists does not make all, most, or any other muslims terrorists or violent by association of religion.
as usual, you are right. If we ignore the evidence above and all those points at which you were intellectually inconsistent, we can clearly conclude, that indeed, you were intellectually consistent.
making a straw man argument (distortion) and ignoring evidence contextually relevant to the discussion: check
distortion: check
ignoring evidence, distortion, repeating yourself: check
I'm getting really tired of your ****, to be honest. I made a nice neat little summary of what I've been saying in the entire thread, and you responded with absolutely nothing on topic. Either you disagree, and think that a few terrorists make other muslims violent by association, or you agree and are just being a troll.
Either way, I don't see that we have anything else to discuss.
Good day, I bid you adieu.
Rapid Alpaca, I would say the difference between Christianity and Islam currently is the positions of power and authority and respect violent extremists and supporters of such have within Islamic society.
You would be hard pressed to find extremists Christians that would condone and support terrorist activities to achieve religious/political objectives. That is not the case with radical islam.
Rapid Alpaca, I would say the difference between Christianity and Islam currently is the positions of power and authority and respect violent extremists and supporters of such have within Islamic society.
You would be hard pressed to find extremists Christians that would condone and support terrorist activities to achieve religious/political objectives. That is not the case with radical islam.
Terrorism is the most effective form of warfare for those fighting from a position of powerlessness. The powerful have police armies, prisons, and military weapons. When we bomb from an airplane we kill as many innocents as the terrorists do, but we ignore that fact. Despite all the claims about evil Muslims, even in the last ten years the USA has killed more people, including more non-combatants, than all the Islamist terrorist combined. We killed 500,000 to million in Iraq alone and that country never attacked or threatened us. It may make you feel better to think there is no equivalency between bombing a nation from the air and blowing up a bus but the differences are imaginary.
Terrorism is the most effective form of warfare for those fighting from a position of powerlessness. The powerful have police armies, prisons, and military weapons. When we bomb from an airplane we kill as many innocents as the terrorists do, but we ignore that fact. Despite all the claims about evil Muslims, even in the last ten years the USA has killed more people, including more non-combatants, than all the Islamist terrorist combined. We killed 500,000 to million in Iraq alone and that country never attacked or threatened us. It may make you feel better to think there is no equivalency between bombing a nation from the air and blowing up a bus but the differences are imaginary.
Still clinging to Lancet are we? Even after their number has been so widely discredited, that to bring it up in any circle of people that know what they are talking about would prompt out right laughter.....
The closer number in my opinion is somewhere around 121,000 civilian deaths through Dec. 2012.
The Lancet figure has never been credibly challenged. Your opinionated apologist number has the stench of bovine rectum.
Still clinging to Lancet are we? Even after their number has been so widely discredited, that to bring it up in any circle of people that know what they are talking about would prompt out right laughter.....
The closer number in my opinion is somewhere around 121,000 civilian deaths through Dec. 2012.
You need to read this....
Iraq Body Count
Terrorism is the most effective form of warfare for those fighting from a position of powerlessness. The powerful have police armies, prisons, and military weapons. When we bomb from an airplane we kill as many innocents as the terrorists do, but we ignore that fact. Despite all the claims about evil Muslims, even in the last ten years the USA has killed more people, including more non-combatants, than all the Islamist terrorist combined. We killed 500,000 to million in Iraq alone and that country never attacked or threatened us. It may make you feel better to think there is no equivalency between bombing a nation from the air and blowing up a bus but the differences are imaginary.
Terrorism is the most effective form of warfare for those fighting from a position of powerlessness. The powerful have police armies, prisons, and military weapons. When we bomb from an airplane we kill as many innocents as the terrorists do, but we ignore that fact. Despite all the claims about evil Muslims, even in the last ten years the USA has killed more people, including more non-combatants, than all the Islamist terrorist combined. We killed 500,000 to million in Iraq alone and that country never attacked or threatened us. It may make you feel better to think there is no equivalency between bombing a nation from the air and blowing up a bus but the differences are imaginary.
I like how you've magically assigned all murders committed by terrorists in Iraq into the United States murder column (500,000 - 1 million?). With stats computed like that I'm not surprised you reached the conclusion you did.
There's no reason to be sympathetic to terrorists. The vast majority of people they kill aren't their oppressors. They aren't the powerless, they generally prey on the powerless.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?