Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument[W:222:829]

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Even though society's moral laws change with the tide...E.g., abortion and gay marriage...God's moral laws are indeed objective...they do not change...

The taking of a human life has been wrong from the beginning in God's eyes..."Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother." Gen. 9:5

The first human wedding was performed by Jehovah, as described at Genesis 2:22-24...

 

[wolfsgirl]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Even though society's moral laws change with the tide...E.g., abortion and gay marriage...God's moral laws are indeed objective...they do not change...

The taking of a human life has been wrong from the beginning in God's eyes..."Besides that, I will demand an accounting for your lifeblood. I will demand an accounting from every living creature; and from each man I will demand an accounting for the life of his brother." Gen. 9:5

The first human wedding was performed by Jehovah, as described at Genesis 2:22-24...

And yet the same god directed the taking of lives.
Joshua 6:20 God helps in the destruction of Jerico.
Deut 2:32 God has Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon
Deut 3:3 same thing in Bashan
Numbers 31:7 same thing with the Midianites except for the virgins
1 Samuel 15:1 again with the Amalekites
Joshua 10:10 The Amorites.
Judges 16:27 God gives Sampson the strength to bring down the roof killing 3,000 members of a tribe.
Judges 14:11 Gods spirit helps Sampson kill 30 so that he can steal their clothes to pay off a bet.
Deut 13:6 god commands to kill your wife, children, brother and friend if they do not believe in him.

So is it wrong always, or is it not wrong when commanded by or in the name of god.

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

And yet the same god directed the taking of lives.
Joshua 6:20 God helps in the destruction of Jerico.
Deut 2:32 God has Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon
Deut 3:3 same thing in Bashan
Numbers 31:7 same thing with the Midianites except for the virgins
1 Samuel 15:1 again with the Amalekites
Joshua 10:10 The Amorites.
Judges 16:27 God gives Sampson the strength to bring down the roof killing 3,000 members of a tribe.
Judges 14:11 Gods spirit helps Sampson kill 30 so that he can steal their clothes to pay off a bet.
Deut 13:6 god commands to kill your wife, children, brother and friend if they do not believe in him.

So is it wrong always, or is it not wrong when commanded by or in the name of god.

God is the Creator...He gives life and only He has the right to take it...

 

[wolfsgirl]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

God is the Creator...He gives life and only He has the right to take it...

Then why did he command or help humans to do it. He could just snap his fingers and they would poof out of existence. IF it is objectively immoral to take anothers life, then it is immoral to do so for any reason. Just because one says that god told them to do it doesn't make it suddenly moral.

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Then why did he command or help humans to do it. He could just snap his fingers and they would poof out of existence. IF it is objectively immoral to take anothers life, then it is immoral to do so for any reason. Just because one says that god told them to do it doesn't make it suddenly moral.

Well, when you become God, you can make those decisions, can't you? Until then...

 

[Sampson Simpson]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Morals are completely subjective. People in the same religion have different morals. Morals cna change in different cultures, countries, regions within a country, etc. Morals can change based on particular situations, for example, killing most people would say is immoral, but when it comes to war, its not ok

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

God is the Creator...He gives life and only He has the right to take it...

So, you are prescribing to the principle that 'might makes right'.

 

[gfm7175]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Well, it goes to show that you are unable to provide actual logical arguments. If you can't provide logical arguments, you can't be convincing to anybody but people who already agree with you. If you don't want people to show why your arguments are bad, do good arguments to begin with. That is the problem with the whole apologist metaphysical philosophy .. their arguments suck, and are more trying to appeal to someone's emotions than to give reasonable and rational explanations.

Yet I believe that you've never directly responded to my OP (concerning the objectiveness/subjectiveness/absoluteness/relativeness of morality) beyond why you think the Moral Argument doesn't work...

Is it ever okay for anyone to painfully torture babies for fun?

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

So, you are prescribing to the principle that 'might makes right'.

Of course..He sets the standards...He gives life, He can take life...if you care to argue that fact with Him, go right ahead...

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Yet I believe that you've never directly responded to my OP (concerning the objectiveness/subjectiveness/absoluteness/relativeness) beyond why you think the Moral Argument doesn't work...

Is it ever okay for anyone to painfully torture babies for fun?

From my subjective point of view, no. There were cultures that had child sacrifice, so you will have to ask them.. it's all about getting blessings from God or some such thing.

 

[gfm7175]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Morals are completely subjective. People in the same religion have different morals. Morals cna change in different cultures, countries, regions within a country, etc. Morals can change based on particular situations, for example, killing most people would say is immoral, but when it comes to war, its not ok

A difference in moral epistemology doesn't mean that there are no objective moral duties.

 

[wolfsgirl]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Well, when you become God, you can make those decisions, can't you? Until then...

So even when discussing god there is no objective morality then. If god say no taking of life, then turns around and says kill them, it's subjective to gods whims. ( or the whims of the person who is deciding what god wants)

 

[soylentgreen]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

My reason would be because God is the definition of moral goodness; he gives meaning and grounding to what 'good' is. Humans can decide a moral point, but they are imperfect; God is perfect.

Good, then at least we have established that your reasoning is nothing more than subjective. It is your personal belief of a god. Therefore your morality is also subjective as your interpretation is just your own. After all there are theists who also claim that god is not perfect.

I think that's the problem at hand... there would be no objective standard... it would be an amoral action.

So your answer is that without the bible telling you so you would be quite happy to go out and kill babies if it amused you to do so.

But the trouble is reality tends to disagree with you. You do not see atheists killing babies as a random style of enjoyment. No more than we see theists killing babies.
Tends to suggest that something other than a belief in objective morality is at work.

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

So even when discussing god there is no objective morality then. If god say no taking of life, then turns around and says kill them, it's subjective to gods whims. ( or the whims of the person who is deciding what god wants)

As I said, He sets the standard for humans...don't like it? Take it up with Him...

 

[gfm7175]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

From my subjective point of view, no. There were cultures that had child sacrifice, so you will have to ask them.. it's all about getting blessings from God or some such thing.

But they weren't torturing babies for fun... I would assume that whoever you are talking about believed that they were serving their god or something along those lines (making a sacrifice to gain something in return)... That's a completely different thing than torturing babies for the fun of it...

 

[wolfsgirl]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

As I said, He sets the standard for humans...don't like it? Take it up with Him...

And he set the standard of no taking of life, THEN turned around and said kill them. That is not setting a standard. It's like telling your kids not to lie, then telling them to lie to someone. Not a good role model.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Of course..He sets the standards...He gives life, He can take life...if you care to argue that fact with Him, go right ahead...

Now, without resorting to religious dogma, show me how YOU know what that standard is...

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Now, without resorting to religious dogma, show me how YOU know what that standard is...

I know because of God's Word...don't like it...too bad...

 

[late]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Yet I believe that you've never directly responded to my OP (concerning the objectiveness/subjectiveness/absoluteness/relativeness of morality) beyond why you think the Moral Argument doesn't work...

I assumed your 'proof' of the existence of a deity was a joke.

You couldn't have been serious.

What is going on here is that we've wandered into ethics. You might say a couple other people have something to say about that.
First, the root of our ethical feelings is biological. You can cut out a tiny piece of the brain, and poof, no more ethics.

Second, objective is just the wrong word, for a number of reasons. You didn't want to use words like absolute or god given, so you tried to sneak Sally through the alley.

Third, there has been wild levels of variation of what is thought of as ethical. It changes all the time.

Fourth, over the last few centuries, there has been work done to provide a solid intellectual foundation for laws and ethics.

Fifth, because law in this country is secular, that is the foundation for public morality. It's there intentionally, to avoid sectarian conflict.

The takeaway here is just that there are no simple answers here.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

I know because of God's Word...don't like it...too bad...

You make that claim.. but you can't show you know God's word. In fact, there is nothing but diversions. That does not lend to credibility.

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

And he set the standard of no taking of life, THEN turned around and said kill them. That is not setting a standard. It's like telling your kids not to lie, then telling them to lie to someone. Not a good role model.

Jehovah God is perfect...humans are not...he cannot be held to the same standards for that reason...go ahead and argue with Him if you think you can...

 

[Daisy]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

You make that claim.. but you can't show you know God's word. In fact, there is nothing but diversions. That does not lend to credibility.

Like I care what you think...

 

[gfm7175]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

So even when discussing god there is no objective morality then. If god say no taking of life, then turns around and says kill them, it's subjective to gods whims. ( or the whims of the person who is deciding what god wants)

See post #15 for the counterpoint to this (and where your misunderstanding is coming from)... Morality isn't rooted in the "will" of God; it is rather rooted in the "divine nature" of God, which is unchanging, and why it can be a standard that one can use to compare moral actions to...

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Jehovah God is perfect...humans are not...he cannot be held to the same standards for that reason...go ahead and argue with Him if you think you can...

And, this is the logical fallacies of 'begging the question', 'argument from personal belief' and 'special pleading'. Not a very good basis for presenting your case.

 

[wolfsgirl]

Re: Does Objective Morality Exist? && The Moral Argument

Jehovah God is perfect...humans are not...he cannot be held to the same standards for that reason...go ahead and argue with Him if you think you can...

Sorry, I don't argue with peoples imaginary friends. I was asking you to back up your point, but it appears that you can't do that without resorting to god said so which demolishes your own point of god saying that the taking of life is a no-no.