Does Atheism Inherently Endorse Nihilism?

[Felicity]

My own understanding of ........Myself,....... I do not need the pity of weak minds.

Hmmmm.......lemme guess your god.....What do you elevate above all things--protect, defend, and worship....?

 

[tecoyah]

Hmmmm.......lemme guess your god.....What do you elevate above all things--protect, defend, and worship....?

I suppose my "God"....is Humanity in a way. Or, More a combination of our place in the fabric of all things. God is the future, in the context of the past as we know it. God is what we all wish to become, and the struggle to reach the lofty goal of perfection. I cannot express in valid terms what God is to me, But I can tell you what it is not.
God is not a white bearded man in the sky, nor is it a six armed Harbinger of death with nice Breasts. God is not found in written words, or in worship of a man nailed to a cross. God isn't found in rolls of parchment, discovered in clay pots in a cave, and certainly not in the words of a warlord prophet from the past. God is not a measure of who yells the loudest, or who has the best Public Relations campaign.

God is the ability of us all, to become more than we are, and accept that we will never be all we wish to be.

So...No dear Felicity....I am not God....though I may very well be a part of the equasion

 

[tecoyah]

Hmmmm.......lemme guess your god.....What do you elevate above all things--protect, defend, and worship....?

By the way....was there a reason for quoting me out of context?

Originally Posted by tecoyah
My own understanding of ........Myself,....... I do not need the pity of weak minds.

vs.

My own understanding of Ethics revolves around a betterment of Myself, and a means to function in a large group of people. If someone else needs a God to tell them to be nice....go for it. But just because I do not, dont you dare relegate me to some imaginary brimstone eternity of suffering. I do not need the pity of weak minds.

Or did you simply wish to misinterpret my words?

 

[jfuh]

One common argument I've seen throughout this thread is the idea that atheists aren't nihilist because most still have some sort of moral code or structure.

I think this raises the question though. Is this moral code real? Does it have any greater purpose? Any meaning? I contend that it does not. Atheist (and I include a part of myself in that catagory) might have a moral code, but can such a code have any meaning other than to act as a psychological coping mechanism, a device used by the athiest mind to get them through the day?

Would then religious ppl have a real moral code?
It's all made up, except one attributes their code to the fear of going to hell where as the other simply does it because of rationalized thought.

 

[jfuh]

That sounds like the flip-side of what I said to tecoyah in the part that got lost in the shutdown--My God is your God too, even if you don't believe in Him. IOW--He's still God, but he allows you to dismiss Him. Everyone will know someday--that is the point of free will and faith.

No, that sounded nothing like what you have said to tecoyah. As a christian you are atheistic towards the pagan or olympian gods - what brings you to believe in your god but not the other gods?

 

[Felicity]

When I quoted you, tecoyah, I didn't mean for it to read differently than what you said, although now I see it did read as if I meant it to run together. I was pointing out exactly what you eventually said more clearly :

I suppose my "God"....is Humanity in a way.......
God is the ability of us all......,
....I am not God....though I may very well be a part of the equasion.

It was the unholy trinity of me, myself, and this world.

But then you qualify it with

....Or, More a combination of our place in the fabric of all things.

Thus, separating the "you" and "mankind" focus to a broader context that becomes less specific but not contradictory to your original statements.

but then you come back to:

"God is what we all wish to become, and the struggle to reach the lofty goal of perfection."

I can say with certainty--I do NOT wish to become God. I want to serve God. I accept and embrace my lesser role knowing that his justice is true.

I believe that this desire to be God is what separated us from His goodness to begin with.


What you said here:

I cannot express in valid terms what God is to me,
But I can tell you what it is not.
God is not a white bearded man in the sky,

...in no-way contradicts the Christian view of God. Yes--the imagery you describe is one way we humans express our relationship to God in childlike terms. As we are unable to express the reality of God, we turn to quaint discriptions to express an aspect of His Being.

God is not a measure of who yells the loudest, or who has the best Public Relations campaign.

In the kingdom of THIS world, that is IN FACT god. The God of this world.

 

[Felicity]

No, that sounded nothing like what you have said to tecoyah. As a christian you are atheistic towards the pagan or olympian gods - what brings you to believe in your god but not the other gods?

Faith. So is that why Atheists find their gods elsewhere?

 

[jfuh]

Faith. So is that why Atheists find their gods elsewhere?

Were you innate with said faith? Or did you learn said faith from somewhere else?

Atheists do not find gods anywhere. How many times do you need to be told this? Atheism is the non-belief of god or explanation of anything through the use of superstitions.

 

[Felicity]

Were you innate with said faith? Or did you learn said faith from somewhere else?

Atheists do not find gods anywhere. How many times do you need to be told this? Atheism is the non-belief of god or explanation of anything through the use of superstitions.

I've explained this several times. This is an example of why I get testy with your reading of my posts. It's repetative and pointless.

AGAIN:
Man's capacity for rational thought makes it impossible for us not to seek understanding of things beyond our grasp. YES. "FAITH" or rather--that yearning to reach toward the unknown--is INNATE in ALL mankind--so-called "Atheists" and also those that accept the fact they walk by faith.

 

[tecoyah]

In the kingdom of THIS world, that is IN FACT god. The God of this world.

And thus....I cannot accept your version of it, Just as you cannot accept mine. The difference I think, is that I can still manage to Respect the fact you think differntly than I do.

 

[Felicity]

And thus....I cannot accept your version of it, Just as you cannot accept mine.

I can accept that is what you believe--though I do not accept it to be an accurate belief.

The difference I think, is that I can still manage to Respect the fact you think differntly than I do.

And I can repect you and not the veracity of your belief.

However--I don't get from what you quoted from me, what it is that you disagree with me on. Is it that you disagree that He who yells the loudest gets the most followers in this world?

 

[hipsterdufus]

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." (Stephen Roberts)

That's the quote I was trying to recall. Thanks!

 

[1069]

That sounds like the flip-side of what I said to tecoyah in the part that got lost in the shutdown--My God is your God too, even if you don't believe in Him. IOW--He's still God, but he allows you to dismiss Him. Everyone will know someday--that is the point of free will and faith.

I could as easily say, "My view is correct, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. There is no big, invisible magical entity in the sky, whether or not you believe in one. You can believe in one all you like, but the truth is that no such magical entity exists, and you will realize that eventually- when you die, if not sooner."


But that would be simply obnoxious.
Besides, you see, I have no stake in disillusioning you.
I prefer you the way you are.

I've always been afraid of what Christians would do if they ever lost their illusions, since they claim to have no internal moral guide or compass, and to need the externally-imposed moral guide the Bible provides.
At least, their questions to atheists (ie, "If you don't believe in the Bible, then what's to stop you from lying, stealing, killing, and raping?") certainly imply a frightening lack of self-control on their part.
Better they continue to believe, if that's the only thing keeping them in line and preventing them from going nuts and harming others.
We surely don't need a bunch of destructive psychos running around messing things up.

 

[jfuh]

I've explained this several times. This is an example of why I get testy with your reading of my posts. It's repetative and pointless.

AGAIN:
Man's capacity for rational thought makes it impossible for us not to seek understanding of things beyond our grasp. YES. "FAITH" or rather--that yearning to reach toward the unknown--is INNATE in ALL mankind--so-called "Atheists" and also those that accept the fact they walk by faith.

The only repetition thus far has been that of your continuous ignorant statement of atheists and superstition.
You were not born with faith in the christian faith - no one was. You were later taught of it through family or whatever later revelation you had to be born again.
The yearning to reach toward the unknown is far from faith.
You have attempted to paint ppl of non-faith as nihilists and/or amoral and provided absolutely zero rationalization for your argument other than a link to one word in a sentence from their website and then later the reversal of your original premise to state that there is no such thing as a true atheists.
If you want to present a valid argument you need to get out from that world of yours where you feel that everyone believes in some form of superstition. Fact of the matter is, even in your faith, the only deity is that which was created by man 2000 years ago simply because of an inability to explain things without the usage of the supernatural. It's contradictory that you choose to believe the words written by a few men 2000 years ago and accept it blindly as "truth" yet do not accept that written by others.
Here you are trying to spread your faith to us because you feel that you are superior to us and thus need to enlighten the rest of us into acceptance that human beings are innate with faith. Sorry, you are not superior to anyone else. You're belief are simply the folklore and fairy tales for the masses to believe that when you die you go to a better place as long as you do good - and then to accept such on blind faith. Oh how convenient to not be able to question anything but accept simply on blind faith.

Would it change your world so much to accept that there may not be a heaven? Would you become an "evil" person if you knew that god would not punish you by disallowing you entrance through the gates of heaven?

 

[Felicity]

I could as easily say, "My view is correct, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it. There is no big, invisible magical entity in the sky, whether or not you believe in one. You can believe in one all you like, but the truth is that no such magical entity exists, and you will realize that eventually- when you die, if not sooner."

My point exactly. Except, that believers don't deny they rely on faith (as the Atheists do)--they embrace it.

But that would be simply obnoxious.

Why stop now?:mrgreen:

Besides, you see, I have no stake in disillusioning you.

As if you have that sway....

I prefer you the way you are.

Likewise...except, I'd like you to also have a pleasant afterlife.

I've always been afraid of what Christians would do if they ever lost their illusions, since they claim to have no internal moral guide or compass, and to need the externally-imposed moral guide the Bible provides.

They would be dead and have no illusions. Also, faith is not an "illusion"--it is a "hope" that is part of the make up of our being. It is not "externally imposed," it is inherant as evidenced by the "moral codes" of Atheists which align fairly consistantly with those of Believers.

At least, their questions to atheists (ie, "If you don't believe in the Bible, then what's to stop you from lying, stealing, killing, and raping?") certainly imply a frightening lack of self-control on their part.
Better they continue to believe, if that's the only thing keeping them in line and preventing them from going nuts and harming others.
We surely don't need a bunch of destructive psychos running around messing things up.

That's your marginalizing hyperbole again. It really does undermine your credibility as a fairminded person.

 

[Felicity]

The only repetition thus far has been that of your continuous ignorant statement of atheists and superstition.
You were not born with faith in the christian faith - no one was. You were later taught of it through family or whatever later revelation you had to be born again.
The yearning to reach toward the unknown is far from faith.

We're talking apple and oranges here and all you seem to grasp is your own fruity take on it which (if I may) is bananas.

You have attempted to paint ppl of non-faith as nihilists and/or amoral and provided absolutely zero rationalization for your argument other than a link to one word in a sentence from their website and then later the reversal of your original premise to state that there is no such thing as a true atheists.

More evidence of comprehension issues on your part.

Also--I NEVER asserted self-titled Atheists were amoral, nor did I say a person could possibly be a person of "non-faith"--I said that is impossible.

If you want to present a valid argument you need to get out from that world of yours where you feel that everyone believes in some form of superstition.

When did I ever say anything concerning "superstition? That is your imaginary baby.

Fact of the matter is, even in your faith, the only deity is that which was created by man 2000 years ago simply because of an inability to explain things without the usage of the supernatural. It's contradictory that you choose to believe the words written by a few men 2000 years ago and accept it blindly as "truth" yet do not accept that written by others.

And to what do you refer?

Here you are trying to spread your faith to us because you feel that you are superior to us and thus need to enlighten the rest of us into acceptance that human beings are innate with faith.

If you feel I am superior (or believe myself to be) that reveals more about your own feelings of inferiority than any feelings i have on the issue.

Sorry, you are not superior to anyone else. You're belief are simply the folklore and fairy tales for the masses to believe that when you die you go to a better place as long as you do good - and then to accept such on blind faith. Oh how convenient to not be able to question anything but accept simply on blind faith.

If that perspective helps you feel better about this superiority/inferiority issue you have--so be it.

Would it change your world so much to accept that there may not be a heaven?

Would it change yours to imagine there were a heaven?

Would you become an "evil" person if you knew that god would not punish you by disallowing you entrance through the gates of heaven?

What is your point? If it is to imply I think self-proclaimed Atheists are "evil"--you are mistaken in that assumption. (Just as you are with several assumptions you make).

 

[CoffeeSaint]

I've explained this several times. This is an example of why I get testy with your reading of my posts. It's repetative and pointless.

AGAIN:
Man's capacity for rational thought makes it impossible for us not to seek understanding of things beyond our grasp. YES. "FAITH" or rather--that yearning to reach toward the unknown--is INNATE in ALL mankind--so-called "Atheists" and also those that accept the fact they walk by faith.

You have explained this several times. And several times, I have explained why this statement is simply not correct, and jfuh has replied even more often than I have. If anyone is being repetitive and pointless, it is you.

I agree that mankind wishes to seek understanding of that which is beyond our grasp. But that is not faith. Faith is believing you have found an answer despite a lack of proof. It is the surety that one knows, not the drive to question.
Every non-believer except strong atheists -- the only atheists that could be argued to have faith in anything -- does not say without question that there is no god, that there never could be a god. We accept the possibility that we might be wrong. We just don't think we are, because there is no evidence to convince us we are. We accept the evidence of our senses, we accept empirical evidence, because that is what we know; we also accept that our senses may deceive us, and empiricval evidence might be mistaken. As I said (though I think it got erased), atheists do not have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow; we simply know that it has happened every day for the last 5 billion years, so the chances are really good that it will do it again.

We are not sure. We do not think that we know. We accept that we might be wrong. That is why we cannot honestly be characterized as having faith, nor believing in a god. Your argument is simply not true, and further repetitions will not make it so.

 

[Apostle13]

Oh look... All these poor little atheists fighting against someone they don't even believe exists... :2rofll:

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Oh look... All these poor little atheists fighting against someone they don't even believe exists... :2rofll:

Yeah, and I kicked his f***ing a$$, too. It's real easy to beat up imaginary things. Want to see me do it again? There: done. Now god's my b*tch.

By the way, did you have any comment relevant to the discussion?

 

[Felicity]

You have explained this several times. And several times, I have explained why this statement is simply not correct, and jfuh has replied even more often than I have. If anyone is being repetitive and pointless, it is you.

I agree that mankind wishes to seek understanding of that which is beyond our grasp. But that is not faith. Faith is believing you have found an answer despite a lack of proof. It is the surety that one knows, not the drive to question.
Every non-believer except strong atheists -- the only atheists that could be argued to have faith in anything -- does not say without question that there is no god, that there never could be a god. We accept the possibility that we might be wrong. We just don't think we are, because there is no evidence to convince us we are. We accept the evidence of our senses, we accept empirical evidence, because that is what we know; we also accept that our senses may deceive us, and empiricval evidence might be mistaken. As I said (though I think it got erased), atheists do not have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow; we simply know that it has happened every day for the last 5 billion years, so the chances are really good that it will do it again.

We are not sure. We do not think that we know. We accept that we might be wrong. That is why we cannot honestly be characterized as having faith, nor believing in a god. Your argument is simply not true, and further repetitions will not make it so.

I do not see a distinction there. Faith is accepting an explanation without proof--your "distinction" that the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has is no different than accepting that that will be true without absolute proof.

I accept that God is true without absolute proof.
You accept the sun will rise without absolute proof.


Furthermore--the "we are not sure" is also not inconsistant with religious "faith"--we assent to the unknowable just as you assent to the unknown rising of the sun tomorrow.

What is the distinction you make?--or are you assuming that religeious faith is something more than accepting as true that which we cannot prove. Do you think that Believers are saying that their faith is something more "tangible" than that which non-believers have?

 

[jfuh]

We're talking apple and oranges here and all you seem to grasp is your own fruity take on it which (if I may) is bananas.

Sure, but it only shows of your arrogance.

More evidence of comprehension issues on your part.

Also--I NEVER asserted self-titled Atheists were amoral, nor did I say a person could possibly be a person of "non-faith"--I said that is impossible.

Comprehension indeed.

Atheism--NOT Atheist themselves--does, in my opinion, ultimately conclude with Nihilism. I am speaking in terms of the philosophy--not the actual personal practice--of Atheism (no-god).

You ignorantly try to seperate atheism from atheists. If anyone is in need of relearning grade school reading skills it would be you. If you state that atheism itself is nihilist than you are clearly stating that atheists are immoral. And do not attempt to spin on it because in your later posts instead of a logical argument you site the atheists website and taking out but one single word to support yourself - you made it very clear that you believe atheists to be immoral.

When did I ever say anything concerning "superstition? That is your imaginary baby.

Godly beings are superstition kiddo. After all, what do you think tarot card reading is? How about of ppl that believe there are ghosts?

And to what do you refer?

As a christian it is your belief that the holy bible is the word of god. That somehow through magical means god wrote the bible through the hands of man (that certainly blows out both free will and an omnipotent god) - so yes, you choose to believe what a certain group of men wrote 2000 years ago and reject that of other groups within a similar time frame.

If you feel I am superior (or believe myself to be) that reveals more about your own feelings of inferiority than any feelings i have on the issue.
If that perspective helps you feel better about this superiority/inferiority issue you have--so be it.

:lamo, this only furthers to prove my point of your self righteous attitude. God you are predictable.

Would it change yours to imagine there were a heaven?

No, it doesn't change my life at all. So now answer the question that you were asked.

What is your point? If it is to imply I think self-proclaimed Atheists are "evil"--you are mistaken in that assumption. (Just as you are with several assumptions you make).

I've made no assumptions about your points, you've provided your points clearly in all the posts you've made prior. Something tells me your going to spaz out again with the comprehension so here's an idea for you, don't write what you don't want to say. This is a simple question that has nothing to do with atheism - now if you may, just answer it.
Would you become an "evil" person if you knew that god would not punish you by disallowing you entrance through the gates of heaven?
I'm making the question to be that there is no god, but simply asking you if you would become "evil" if you knew there were no consequences to your actions - hence god would not punish you regardless of what you did.

 

[Felicity]

Oh look... All these poor little atheists fighting against someone they don't even believe exists... :2rofll:

That's always intruiged me too. Why are they so concerned about it? I would think they would simply dismiss our foolishness and move on since it is irrelevant to their non-belief. That really bolsters the position that they must fill that "god-void" with something--even if it is an attempt to fill it with railing agianst Him.

 

[1069]

Oh look... All these poor little atheists fighting against someone they don't even believe exists... :2rofll:

I've heard this line before; while I don't spend a lot of time debating the existence of big, invisible magical entities in the sky, I will debate it if asked.
I think what I'm debating more than the belief (which I find rather poignant and not at all objectionable) is a certain mentality that I and apparently the majority of the US population have found increasingly oppressive in recent years.
I find it sweet, sad, and ultimately understandable that some people don't want to or are unable to accept their own (and their loved ones') mortality, and so are willing to embrace absurd fairy tales in an effort not to face facts. I would never oppose their right to do this.
I do not find it at all cute or endearing, however, when these same folks come after me and start persecuting me for not sharing their fantasies and delusions.
"Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists as a political force" was a distasteful chapter in recent American history, and is something I devoutly hope we've seen the last of.
I do not question religious folks' need for a crutch; I haven't lived their life, I don't know how bad things have been for them, I don't know what kind of baggage they're carrying.
But I must object when they start insisting I'm crippled too, and also need a crutch.
Or when they surround me and start beating me and my human rights over the head with their crutches.

 

[jfuh]

Oh look... All these poor little atheists fighting against someone they don't even believe exists... :2rofll:

Pay attention to the thread topic and then you'll understand the arguments.

 

[Felicity]

Comprehension indeed.

​

You just totally proved my point. And if you still don't get it...I'm going to save you the embarassment of continuing to let you prove your ignorance by stepping away from discussion on this topic with you.

If you want to believe I'm an arrogant A-hole. So be it.