Does Atheism Inherently Endorse Nihilism?

[Apostle13]

Yeah, and I kicked his f***ing a$$, too. It's real easy to beat up imaginary things. Want to see me do it again? There: done. Now god's my b*tch.

By the way, did you have any comment relevant to the discussion?

Now there is a nice and colorful characterization on your part that is quite relevent.
Aww... Did that make you mad when I said that?

 

[Apostle13]

You just totally proved my point. And if you still don't get it...I'm going to save you the embarassment of continuing to let you prove your ignorance by stepping away from discussion on this topic with you.

If you want to believe I'm an arrogant A-hole. So be it.

You fought a GOOD fight here... And I for one commend you.

 

[jfuh]

I've heard this line before; while I don't spend a lot of time debating the existence of big, invisible magical entities in the sky, I will debate it if asked.
I think what I'm debating more than the belief (which I find rather poignant and not at all objectionable) is a certain mentality that I and apparently the majority of the US population have found increasingly oppressive in recent years.
I find it sweet, sad, and ultimately understandable that some people don't want to or are unable to accept their own (and their loved ones') mortality, and so are willing to embrace absurd fairy tales in an effort not to face facts. I would never oppose their right to do this.
I do not find it at all cute or endearing, however, when these same folks come after me and start persecuting me for not sharing their fantasies and delusions.
"Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists as a political force" was a distasteful chapter in recent American history, and is something I devoutly hope we've seen the last of.
I do not question religious folks' need for a crutch; I haven't lived their life, I don't know how bad things have been for them, I don't know what kind of baggage they're carrying.
But I must object when they start insisting I'm crippled too, and also need a crutch.
Or when they surround me and start beating me and my human rights over the head with their crutches.

How of the insistence that your non-belief is still a belief in their belief because their belief pity's poor souls like you and wish that you would one day "see the light".

 

[1069]

Yeah, and I kicked his f***ing a$$, too. It's real easy to beat up imaginary things. Want to see me do it again? There: done. Now god's my b*tch.

:funny

I am soooo tempted to snag that for a new siggie line... :mrgreen:

 

[jfuh]

You just totally proved my point. And if you still don't get it...I'm going to save you the embarassment of continuing to let you prove your ignorance by stepping away from discussion on this topic with you.

If you want to believe I'm an arrogant A-hole. So be it.

Again, so predictable; Very well, you're arrogant about your ignorance and have made but irrational arguments to supplement your ignorance - thank you for admitting that finally.
I'm curious as to how you'd answer the later two questions.

 

[1069]

How of the insistence that your non-belief is still a belief in their belief because their belief pity's poor souls like you and wish that you would one day "see the light".

You mean cripples insisting that I'm crippled too and am just too blind to realize it? Cripples insisting that they feel sorry for me because I'm gimping around handicapped, embarrassing myself and everyone else yet refusing to face facts, in dire need of a crutch or perhaps even a motorized wheelchair and not even realizing it?
They're welcome to "pity" me all they like. It makes no difference to me.
If they feel sorry enough for me, maybe they ought to send me some money.

 

[jfuh]

You mean cripples insisting that I'm crippled too and am just too blind to realize it? Cripples insisting that they feel sorry for me because I'm gimping around handicapped, embarrassing myself and everyone else yet refusing to face facts, in dire need of a crutch or perhaps even a motorized wheelchair and not even realizing it?

Something like that.

They're welcome to "pity" me all they like. It makes no difference to me.
If they feel sorry enough for me, maybe they ought to send me some money.

Na, they'll only say that you need to donate to their cause so as to pay your way into a better afterlife.

 

[Apostle13]

You mean cripples insisting that I'm crippled too and am just too blind to realize it? Cripples insisting that they feel sorry for me because I'm gimping around handicapped, embarrassing myself and everyone else yet refusing to face facts, in dire need of a crutch or perhaps even a motorized wheelchair and not even realizing it?

Matthew 15:14 "Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit."

 

[Felicity]

I'm curious as to how you'd answer the later two questions.

I only see one...

Would you become an "evil" person if you knew that god would not punish you by disallowing you entrance through the gates of heaven?

...and I answered it already...:

I've always been afraid of what Christians would do if they ever lost their illusions, since they claim to have no internal moral guide or compass, and to need the externally-imposed moral guide the Bible provides.

They would be dead and have no illusions. Also, faith is not an "illusion"--it is a "hope" that is part of the make up of our being. It is not "externally imposed," it is inherant as evidenced by the "moral codes" of Atheists which align fairly consistantly with those of Believers.

I would be a moral non-believer--I couldn't help it--It's part of the make-up of the human nature to have this fairly consistent moral make-up.

 

[Apostle13]

It's part of the make-up of the human nature to have this fairly consistent moral make-up.

Yes otherwise known as conscience.

I've always been afraid of what Christians would do if they ever lost their illusions, since they claim to have no internal moral guide or compass

This is a blatant misrepresentation of Christians as they do not make any such claims. However, they do recognize the dangers of continual compromise of conscience toward the soul's values/morals as we do believe that the conscience is comprised with the soul.

 

[Felicity]

Yes otherwise known as conscience.

Well--that's what you and I would call it...I won't assume that's what a self-proclaimed Atheist calls that push toward the good that universally exists in the heart of man.

I mean--after-all, conscience is not something that can be measured in a lab and documented in a peer reviewed journal.

 

[1069]

However, they do recognize the dangers of continual compromise of conscience toward the soul's values/morals as we do believe that the conscience is comprised with the soul.

Huh? "They"? "We"? Excuse me?

Is that the royal "we", or do you have a tapeworm?

And what's a "soul"?

To me, that's just another part of the fantasy.
A hearing aid, to go along with the crutches.

 

[Felicity]

Huh? "They"? "We"? Excuse me?

Is that the royal "we", or do you have a tapeworm?

And what's a "soul"?

To me, that's just another part of the fantasy.
A hearing aid, to go along with the crutches.

See? ....1069...what do you call that internal compass that mankind has that helps him choose moral direction?

 

[1069]

See? ....1069...what do you call that internal compass that mankind has that helps him choose moral direction?

I call it "reciprocal altruism", and I believe it is the cornerstone of civilization.

 

[Apostle13]

Well--that's what you and I would call it...I won't assume that's what a self-proclaimed Atheist calls that push toward the good that universally exists in the heart of man.

I mean--after-all, conscience is not something that can be measured in a lab and documented in a peer reviewed journal.

Exactly... Conscience can only be measured internally as well as individually.

And what's a "soul"?

To me, that's just another part of the fantasy.
A hearing aid, to go along with the crutches.

Just trying to promote a little better understanding.
Hmmm... Men without souls...??? Bummer.

 

[Felicity]

I call it "reciprocal altruism", and I believe it is the cornerstone of civilization.

Thank-you. And where does the individual motivation for "reciprocal altruism" come from?

 

[Apostle13]

I call it "reciprocal altruism", and I believe it is the cornerstone of civilization.

Is this but a fancy for what goes around comes around?

 

[1069]

Thank-you. And where does the individual motivation for "reciprocal altruism" come from?

It is a learned behavior.
Of course one can choose to digress from it (and many do, especially during the adolescent years), but to mature, rational, and intelligent adults the rationale behind the Ethic of Reciprocity is apparent.
We take care of the helpless and the less fortunate, because some day we will inevitably be "less fortunate" (sick, elderly, weak, incapacitated by pregnancy, whatever) ourselves, and will need to be taken care of.
Reciprocity is the only way of life that makes any real sense, and that is why when individuals digress too far from it, society punishes them.

 

[1069]

Is this but a fancy for what goes around comes around?

It's similar to "The Golden Rule", a fundamental moral principle found in virtually all major religions and cultures, which simply means "treat others as you would like to be treated."

 

[Felicity]

It is a learned behavior.
Of course one can choose to digress from it (and many do, especially during the adolescent years), but to mature, rational, and intelligent adults the rationale behind the Ethic of Reciprocity is apparent.
We take care of the helpless and the less fortunate, because some day we will inevitably be "less fortunate" (sick, elderly, weak, incapacitated by pregnancy, whatever) ourselves, and will need to be taken care of.
Reciprocity is the only way of life that makes any real sense, and that is why when people digress too far from it, society punishes them.

So, then technically, it's not "altruistic"...right? It's self-preserving and therefore selfishly motivated?

 

[1069]

So, then technically, it's not "altruistic"...right? It's self-preserving and therefore selfishly motivated?

Altruism is concern for the welfare of others without expectation of reward; Reciprocal Altruism is concern for the welfare of others without expectation of reward but with the expectation of reciprocity.

 

[Felicity]

Altruism is concern for the welfare of others without expectation of reward; Reciprocal Altruism is concern for the welfare of others without expectation of reward but with the expectation of reciprocity.

Would you supply documentation of a reputable source that states altruism has any sort of expectation of anything associated with it. My understanding is that "altruism" specifically denotes to be without concern for self in any way--in fact--it moreso implies that actions are done to the "detriment" of the the person who is being altruistic. Are you telling me your term is a purposeful oxymoron?


At any rate...is this reciprocity something that is done consciously--we "choose" reciprocity?

 

[1069]

Would you supply documentation of a reputable source that states altruism has any sort of expectation of anything associated with it.

No, I don't think I will, because it's entirely possible none exists.
This is pretty much my own belief; I'm not sure if anyone else ("reputable source" or not) shares it.
You're welcome to look yourself, if you'd care to refute it.

At any rate...is this reciprocity something that is done consciously--we "choose" reciprocity?

As much as we "choose" to relieve ourselves in privacy, in a toilet, rather than in the middle of a busy intersection or on the floor as we wait in line at the bank.
It is something we are taught from infancy, something that the entire structure of our society is set up to support.
I would say by adulthood, it is deeply ingrained in most people and is largely subconscious; rather, it would take a conscious effort of will to digress from it.
A person (even an adult) who was not raised in civilized environs, however, would have to be trained and would have to make a conscious effort to comply.

 

[jfuh]

I only see one...



...and I answered it already...:

I would be a moral non-believer--I couldn't help it--It's part of the make-up of the human nature to have this fairly consistent moral make-up.

And you are telling ppl to excel in reading comprehension?
Here're the two questions
I asked:
Would it change your world so much to accept that there may not be a heaven?
You answered with question - far from answering.
I also asked
Would you become an "evil" person if you knew that god would not punish you by disallowing you entrance through the gates of heaven?
To which I followed up by stating it was nothing about atheism which you wrongfully comprehended.

 

[jfuh]

However, they do recognize the dangers of continual compromise of conscience toward the soul's values/morals as we do believe that the conscience is comprised with the soul.

Based on what?