Do you think "Scooter" Libby" should get a pardon?

[Stinger]

Where's this "obstructing justice" clause you speak of?
Here's the section of US code that Libby was charged under:

US CODE: Title 18,1623. False declarations before grand jury or court

Can we all stipulate that we know what the indictment stated and what the statues state? OK? Got it?

Now where is the evidence of his knowingly and willfully telling a lie and what is the evidence that he did so to obstruct justice and just what was the obstruction since Fitzgerald already knew who leaked Plame's name?

THOSE are the questions pertaining to the verdict.

 

[Stinger]

Obviously she didn't have good enough protection cause she got outted.

Actually she had be outted previously and her employment at the CIA was not something being actively hidden. She worked under her own name, drove a car registered to her to work everyday to the CIA building, drove to and from her home where she lived under her name. And many people knew she worked at the CIA.

Well, the CIA, FBI, the DoJ, and the Special Prosecutor all think she was a undercover agent whose identity was classified.
Stinger, Navy Pride and some pro-war pundits think otherwise.

Was anyone charged with a crime in disclosing her name? And the fact remains the President can release classified information and he extended that to Cheney and his staff. And the fact remains her employment at the CIA was no longer a secret anyway, many reporters already knew who she was.

 

[Captain America]

Wassa matta guys? Your crow a bit salty? Bon appetit!

Libby is guilty. Neener, neener.

I think they should offer him immunity to roll ovcer on Cheney and Bush. That's who mainstream America want's to see held accountable.

Can the president pardon himself?

I think it's kinda funny. Millions wasted on something the president can, and most likely will, erase with a stroke of the pen.

Libby probably will stay out long enough on appeals to reach the end of Bush's term. And the last thing Bush will do before turning out the Whitehouse lights, will be to pardon Libby. And Cheney too, if we're lucky enough to see Cheney brought to justice at all.

Who knows? Now that Anna's in the ground, maybe some folks might even care.

Myself, I'm goin' ice fishing. I have more important things to do.

 

[Stinger]

It didn't criminalize anything. Perjury was already illegal.

"It was just very hard to believe how he could remember it on a Tuesday and forget it on a Thursday and then remember it two days later."
​

Ain't it though?

But not so for every other witness?

 

[OKgrannie]

Actually she had be outted previously and her employment at the CIA was not something being actively hidden. She worked under her own name, drove a car registered to her to work everyday to the CIA building, drove to and from her home where she lived under her name. And many people knew she worked at the CIA.

You have been misinformed.

Media Matters - Libby's guilty verdict: Media myths and falsehoods to watch for

"Plame's employment with the CIA was widely known.
This falsehood has taken at least two forms -- that Plame's employment with the CIA was known in the Washington cocktail party circuit and that her neighbors knew that she worked for the CIA. In fact, Fitzgerald stated in the indictment of Libby that Plame's employment was classified and "was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community," a finding he reiterated at a post-verdict press conference. Moreover, as Media Matters noted, contrary to The Washington Times' assertion that "numerous neighbors were aware that she worked for the agency," none of the neighbors cited in The Times' own news reports or in other reports said that they knew before reading the Novak column that Plame worked at the CIA. Her acquaintances told reporters that they believed she worked as a private "consultant."

Was anyone charged with a crime in disclosing her name? And the fact remains the President can release classified information and he extended that to Cheney and his staff. And the fact remains her employment at the CIA was no longer a secret anyway, many reporters already knew who she was.

Media Matters - Libby's guilty verdict: Media myths and falsehoods to watch for

"No underlying crime was committed. Since a federal grand jury indicted Libby in October 2005, numerous media figures have stated that the nature of the charges against him prove that special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald's investigation of the CIA leak case found that no underlying crime had been committed. But this assertion ignores Fitzgerald's explanation that Libby's obstructions prevented him -- and the grand jury -- from determining whether the alleged leak violated federal law."

 

[talloulou]

I think as long as President's are going to be "pardoning" convicted criminals then yes Bush should definitely pardon Libby assuming he doesn't win an appeal and gets a tough sentence as I believe he was a fall guy for the administration. People have been pardoned by Presidents for much worse than what Libby was convicted for.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Media Matters - Libby's guilty verdict: Media myths and falsehoods to watch for

"No underlying crime was committed. Since a federal grand jury indicted Libby in October 2005, numerous media figures have stated that the nature of the charges against him prove that special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald's investigation of the CIA leak case found that no underlying crime had been committed. But this assertion ignores Fitzgerald's explanation that Libby's obstructions prevented him -- and the grand jury -- from determining whether the alleged leak violated federal law."

See this one makes absolutely no sense what so ever, Libby's statement in no way impuned Fitzgerald's investigation infact Fitzgerald knew from the get go who gave Novak Plame's name it was Richard ****ing Armitage, media matters is such a left wing shill that it's re-god damn-diculous.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The CIA has 2 types of employees: OVERT and COVERT. Valerie Plame was NOT overt.

No they also have employees who have classified identities that is the category Plame falls in, she was not covert, everyone knows she was not covert, but yet you people still persist on pushing the lie. Her ID was simply classified which is a huge huge difference from covert.

 

[OKgrannie]

See this one makes absolutely no sense what so ever, Libby's statement in no way impuned Fitzgerald's investigation infact Fitzgerald knew from the get go who gave Novak Plame's name it was Richard ****ing Armitage, media matters is such a left wing shill that it's re-god damn-diculous.

No need to use that kind of language with me, young man! Fitzgerald said his investigation was impeded by the perjury, and he should know. Evidently the jury agreed. There were obviously others involved in this incident, others who are avoiding any consequences whatsoever, because of LIES during the investigation.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No need to use that kind of language with me, young man! Fitzgerald said his investigation was impeded by the perjury, and he should know.

How was it impeded? The case was solved the first day out. How could two sentences in two different conversations have impeded Fitzgerald's case? It doesn't make any damn sense.

Evidently the jury agreed. There were obviously others involved in this incident, others who are avoiding any consequences whatsoever, because of LIES during the investigation.

See this is such bullshit, it was Armitage, end of story, end of case, and it should have been the end of the investigation but no Fitzgerald who was unaccountable to no one mounted a witch hunt against this administration when he knew from day one who had given Plame's name to Novak.

 

[OKgrannie]

No they also have employees who have classified identities that is the category Plame falls in, she was not covert, everyone knows she was not covert, but yet you people still persist on pushing the lie. Her ID was simply classified which is a huge huge difference from covert.

LOL, a "covert agent" is one whose identity is classified.

Rove Did Leak Classified Information

"The Intelligence Identities Protection Act makes it a crime to identify "a covert agent" of the United States. The law defines "covert agent," in part, as "a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information." (My emphasis.)

This definition clearly recognizes that the identity of an undercover intelligence officer is "classified information." The law also notes that a "covert agent" has a "classified relationship to the United States." Since the CIA asked the Justice Department to investigate the Plame/CIA leak and the Justice Department affirmed the need for an investigation and special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, once handed the case, pursued the matter vigorously, it is reasonable to assume that Valerie Wilson fits the definition of a "covert agent." That means she has a "classified relationship" with the government. "

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

LOL, a "covert agent" is one whose identity is classified.

No it's not you're wrong an agent can have a classified ID and not have covert status:

On Dec. 30, 2003, the day Fitzgerald was appointed special counsel, he should have known (all he had to do was ask the CIA) that Plame was not covert, knowledge that should have stopped the investigation right there. The law prohibiting disclosure of a covert agent's identity requires that the person have a foreign assignment at the time or have had one within five years of the disclosure, that the government be taking affirmative steps to conceal the government relationship, and for the discloser to have actual knowledge of the covert status.

Plame was not covert. She worked at CIA headquarters and had not been stationed abroad within five years of the date of Novak's column.

Trial in Error - washingtonpost.com

 

[OKgrannie]

No it's not you're wrong an agent can have a classified ID and not have covert status:

If this is what you are basing your "not covert" status opinion upon,

Plame was not covert. She worked at CIA headquarters and had not been stationed abroad within five years of the date of Novak's column.

then you should be aware that she had traveled abroad within 5 years. You have failed to show that an agent can be classified and yet not covert.

 

[jallman]

On the topic of the pardon for Scooter Libby...I have mixed feelings. Technically, Libby committed the crime of perjury and the crime of obstruction of justice, from my understanding. However, the investigation should have stopped at the point when the US Attorney knew that Armitage was the leak. Any further investigation was simply a witch hunt and Libby got caught in the cross fire. It has been determined that there was no crime, and therefore, perjuring testimony over a crime that did not happen seems like a non issue to me. It also seems that Libby got hung out to dry by *someone* higher up, but that is only my opinion and not proven fact.

At the same time perjury is a very serious offense. It is even more so when a person of authority and influence perjures himself in front of a grand jury. It strikes at the very heart of our political system when someone of power acts with such little integrity.

In the end though, I have to say that i find Libby's indictment to be either politically motivated or a last resort to an investigation. Even one of the jurors stated something similar. The man has been shamed and his career will suffer. Since the indictment was politically motivated, in my mind at least, I see nothing wrong with a political pardon in return.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

If this is what you are basing your "not covert" status opinion upon,



then you should be aware that she had traveled abroad within 5 years. You have failed to show that an agent can be classified and yet not covert.

Was she on assignment? Was the government "taking affirmative steps to conceal the government relationship," the answer to both questions are no. The author of the article I posted knows better than both of us she helped write Agent Identities Protection Act which is the law that you're accusing Libby and others of violating. Plame was not covert, no matter how much misinformation Wilson, Fitzgerald, and the MSM poor into the conscionse of the populace.

 

[OKgrannie]

Was she on assignment? Was the government "taking affirmative steps to conceal the government relationship," the answer to both questions are no. The author of the article I posted knows better than both of us she helped write Agent Identities Protection Act which is the law that you're accusing Libby and others of violating. Plame was not covert, no matter how much misinformation Wilson, Fitzgerald, and the MSM poor into the conscionse of the populace.

Had Valerie Plame NOT been covert, there would never have been an investigation.

NO QUARTER: Was She Covert?

"Right wing hacks like Victoria Toensing, Cliff May and Byron York not only deny Valerie was covert but also insist that Valerie was not covered by the IIPA because she had not lived overseas in the five years preceding the July 2003 Robert Novak article. But that is not the law. The law states, "serving outside the United States". Although she was based in Washington, DC, Valerie traveled overseas and conducted espionage activities. She served outside the United States during the period 1998-2002 and was a covered person under the IIPA."

"Here is the irony? If Valerie had been an overt employee or a covert employee not covered by IIPA then Scooter Libby would not have had to lie to FBI agents because there would not have been an investigation. But Valerie was a covert agent. Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, Karl Rove, Ari Fleischer, and Richard Armitage, among others, put her name in circulation with members of the press. They harmed a covert agent and in the process did serious damage to our nation's security. This may not be relevant to the charges Scooter faces, but it is relevant to our nations security. We now know that the Bush White House was as cavalier with the identity of a CIA officer as they have been of late with the medical care for wounded Iraqi war vets at Walter Reed. And in both cases people have probably died because of their carelessness"

 

[Simon W. Moon]

It has been established that she was not covert why do you people continue to push this lie? I've already went over the newsweek B.S. story but I suppose I have to do it again:

In order to establish a violation of Title 50, United States Code, Section 421 [the Intelligence Identities Protection Act], it would be necessary to establish that Libby knew or believed that Plame was a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who had carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years. To date, we have no direct evidence that Libby knew or believed that Wilson's wife was engaged in covert work.
​

Is it clear that Fitzgerald is "addressing deficiencies of proof regarding the Intelligence Identities Protection Act" in the above section?

I hope so.

Is it also clear that Fitzgerald saying that the reason he's not bringing the Intelligence Identities Protection Act into play is because of this deficiency of proof?

I hope this is obvious as well.

Is it also clear that Fitzgerald wrote that the deficiency of proof was that there was "no direct evidence that Libby knew or believed that Wilson's wife was engaged in covert work"?

I hope this is limpid.

I hope we can all agree on these few plain points points couched in the quoted language of the actual participants.

If Plame was NOT "a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who had carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years," then having direct evidence that Libby "believed that Wilson's wife was engaged in covert work" would NOT establish a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act and would not be listed a deficiency of proof.
Instead he would've written that the law was not applicable - not that there wasn't enough direct evidence that Libby knew or believed.

Then there's this:

It's not really clear that the CIA keeps it's former employees up to date on all of its classified going on.
Ms. Toensig's mere assertion doesn't outweigh the plain evidence.

Umm the investigation was to find out if a covert agent's identity had been leaked and by whome and guess what she wasn't covert her identity was only "classified" which is why nobody has been charged with that crime.

It does not say "investigation was to find out if a covert agent's identity had been leaked" it actually says "investigation into the disclosure earlier that year of the identity of an employee operating undercover."

I hope that gross distinction is clear

 

[Simon W. Moon]

But not so for every other witness?

Please present you evidence that backs the charge that "every other witness" "memory issues" similar to Mr. Libby's.

Unless you're not actually making that claim.

Are you merely trying to raise some uncertainty and doubt, or do you have and actual claim and evidence that "every other witness" "memory issues" similar to Mr. Libby's?

 

[Stinger]

Had Valerie Plame NOT been covert, there would never have been an investigation.

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/02/was_she_covert.html

That's not true, the CIA routinely sends over such inquiries to the justice department when anything CLASSIFIED may have been disclosed. No one was charge with outing Plame, period, end of story.

And Toensing is NOT a righ wing hack the article you are trying to use as your source though is most certainly a left wing hack. She wrote the law in question and is an authority on it.

 

[jallman]

That's not true, the CIA routinely sends over such inquiries to the justice department when anything CLASSIFIED may have been disclosed. No one was charge with outing Plame, period, end of story.

And Toensing is NOT a righ wing hack the article you are trying to use as your source though is most certainly a left wing hack. She wrote the law in question and is an authority on it.

But we are all in agreement that Scooter Libby was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, correct?

 

[Stinger]

Please present you evidence that backs the charge that "every other witness" "memory issues" similar to Mr. Libby's.

You are claiming everyone else had perfect memories? Even when they had to go back and restate thier previous testimony? Even thought the FBI interviews disputed their testimony? This trial was frought with witnesses recanting or not remembering, for instance Judith Miller forgetting she had in fact heard about Plame before the time she had testified to, only discovering it when she found some notes in a shopping bag under her desk.

Or Robert Grenier whose memory only came to pass over a one year period?

Even Russert got nailed on a memory issue.

Cooper, couldn't be sure.

Which witnesses had perfect memories?

 

[Stinger]

But we are all in agreement that Scooter Libby was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, correct?

Yes, although no one has yet to show what the obstruction of justice was.

 

[jallman]

You are claiming everyone else had perfect memories? Even when they had to go back and restate thier previous testimony? Even thought the FBI interviews disputed their testimony? This trial was frought with witnesses recanting or not remembering, for instance Judith Miller forgetting she had in fact heard about Plame before the time she had testified to, only discovering it when she found some notes in a shopping bag under her desk.

Or Robert Grenier whose memory only came to pass over a one year period?

Even Russert got nailed on a memory issue.

Cooper, couldn't be sure.

Which witnesses had perfect memories?

These are all reasons I believe he deserves a pardon.

 

[jallman]

Yes, although no one has yet to show what the obstruction of justice was.

Obviously they showed a jury because he was convicted...

 

[Stinger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Yes, although no one has yet to show what the obstruction of justice was.

Obviously they showed a jury because he was convicted...

One does not follow the other. Justice was served when Fitzgerald was told about Armitage. After that there was nothing to obstruct.