Do you support the Nordic model for the US?

[ataraxia]

Let us presume for the sake of a hypothetical that we had a major shock to the United States economy like that of the Great Depression along with a massive political realignment like that which followed the great depression, and progressive economically populist movement or even social democratic movement broke through into a position of veto-proof dominance at the national level. What is the argument against passing such legislation to enact a Nordic Model if there is a popular mandate for it?

Because I just do not buy the "We are too big and diverse with too many people" argument against the efficacy of implementing something that looks like Nordic Model in our country. Sure, we currently have 16 times the population of all the Scandinavian countries combined, and we are more ethnically diverse, but we had Medicaid and Medicare and Social Security for nearly a century across all 50 states. We had high taxes that paid for social services at every level, local, state and federal, at one point, before right-wing neo-liberal economic think tanks and lobbyists took hold of our lawmakers. Many states within our Union used to have free public colleges, more affordable healthcare, higher union membership, better wages, less income inequality and greater social mobility. There was a moment in history where the United States had what could effectively be described a Nordic Model. What made it insolvent were not the funding mechanisms, but political gamesmanship from the right-wing. That's it.

Yes. Starting with Nixon and his Southern Strategy, the oligarchs realized they could leverage Americans’ latent racism to exploit and ride them like some poor stupid beast of burden. They told them that if they had a government t which stopped helping anyone, it would hurt those colored folks more than it would hurt them. They bought it. They are happy to live with the pain.

Now they tell us the only reason the Nordic Model couldn’t work here is because they are more racially homogenous- which is bull$hit because Scandinavian countries are already pretty ethnically mixed these days.

But that’s acknowledging that the reason that economic system would never work here is because we are a deeply racist society that would rather get hurt as a whole than help its most vulnerable demographics.

That’s not a statement about the economic system- that’s just another reason why American racism is so profoundly hurtful to itself.

 

[Sweden]

Swedes save 25%. Wow.

A Swedish site says that saving rates vary from year to year. They are however always between SKR 2,000 and 3,000 a month . So around Can Dollars 450. Is that so very different from Canada? It is certainly not anywhere near 25% of average Swedish incomes.

 

[Peter]

Not a very steep price for the healthiest & happiest nation on Earth

US Republicans don't want to be happy or healthy as that's what they claim is socialism is.
Having an actual work life balance is for wimps and we all know all true Americans are happy to work themselves to death for companies who give them as little as they can legally get away with.

In fact how are you reading this and why aren't you at work right now?
Are you even American?

 

[Allan]

A Swedish site says that saving rates vary from year to year. They are however always between SKR 2,000 and 3,000 a month . So around Can Dollars 450. Is that so very different from Canada? It is certainly not anywhere near 25% of average Swedish incomes.

I looked it up and Canadians save about 7%. That's far less than Swedes put away.

Median salary here is $42,600 so a person earning that saves about $248 per month.

 

[Radical Red Radish]

Quality of life in the Nordics is better than in the U.S.

Seems to me that if the US were to ban private schools and implement state-paid allowance increases for good grades, then we could cheaply upgrade the public schools. Universal and quantitative standards of academic performance as universal and quantitative criteria in hiring decisions would make focusing on school more worthwhile for kids who keep to the straight and narrow.

The current system punishes hard work and good grades. I made, I think, something like a 4.5 GPA and I've gone twenty years without a job. I think my highest wages ever were all lower than the current legal minimum wage in the US.

We also need laws that make it so that those who have been unemployed longest receive higher priority in hiring decisions. That way instead of all those people who go on Social Security because they could work but they can't get hired, we would have people working all those jobs, even minimum wage jobs, that companies are "having trouble" hiring people for.

 

[The AntiDonald]

The difference is simple. Some governments really do care about their citizens.

Surely not here. Our leaders care about one main thing. Enriching themselves and their friends. Trump’s net worth has grown by a billion or more in just 10 short months. Elons has grown by nearly $200 billion.

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

The Nordic Exceptionalism: What Explains Why the Nordic Countries Are Constantly Among the Happiest in the World​

The Nordic Exceptionalism: What Explains Why the Nordic Countries Are Constantly Among the Happiest in the World

The World Happiness Report is published by the Wellbeing Research Centre at the University of Oxford, in partnership with Gallup, the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network and an independent editorial board.

www.worldhappiness.report

Why Are Nordic Countries So Happy?​

Why Are Nordic Countries So Happy? - Business Review at Berkeley

While the Nordic model may not be completely suitable for other countries, or even sustainable in the long-term, it can still inform our understanding of how other regions around the world can be improved. Key ingredients for its success thus far, such as social cohesion and low levels of...

businessreview.studentorg.berkeley.edu

The Nordic Blueprint for Happiness​

The Nordic Blueprint for Happiness

Why Are the Nordic Countries So Happy? Discover why Nordic nations like Finland, Denmark, and Sweden consistently rank among the happiest in the world.

www.escapeartist.com

NOW we ALL know NO Rightie will delve deeply to any of those links, because as we already know, they are extremely unhappy, easily riled-up, and insecure people who rather think of women that they disagree with as wundumhos.

 

[Sweden]

I looked it up and Canadians save about 7%. That's far less than Swedes put away.

Median salary here is $42,600 so a person earning that saves about $248 per month.

7% of Dollars 42,600 in Dollars 2,982. So not "dollars 248 per month.

 

[SavannahMann]

The Nordic model provides free healthcare, education, childcare, and more, but it comes at a very steep price compared to what we pay now:

View attachment 67593599

If you want the Nordic model, no matter where you are on the economic ladder, you will bend over for the tax man and no lubrication will be provided. All of the Nordic countries have a 25% VAT, they all tax the shit out of gasoline, diesel, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. Norway is a petro-state, and gas is $8 per gallon there because of taxes. In Denmark, to register a $20,000 car, there is an 85% tax. A $40,000 car gets hit with a 150% tax. That's why you see pictures of miserable Danes riding their bikes in the rain and snow.

View attachment 67593604

This one is from Gemini:

View attachment 67593605

But you are forgetting something. All we pay for Insurance Premiums and copays and such. So that would be offset, and probably experience a savings in the overall picture.

Between my employer and my own contributions to my Insurance we are talking at least a thousand a month, and probably double that. So the roughly $15,000 a month more in taxes, would actually be lower. And we would have something else to benefit.

A lot of people work in Hospitals and Doctors Offices just for the submission of Insurance claims. That overhead has to be paid, through those same claims. So a doctors appointment for fifteen minutes cost several hundred dollars, and how much of that is just overhead to keep the money coming in from insurance companies?

The more the Insurance Companies try to deny coverage, the more people get hired to try and get the insurance companies to actually pay for the medical care.

When you have more administration people than you have Doctors. or Nurses, then there is a problem. Only you can't get rid of those admin people, because they are required to get the insurance companies to actually cough up the money they're supposed to pay.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Up taxes on the wealthy and corporations to fund it.

That’s not the “Nordic model”.

Middle-class tax burden in Nordic countries (2024)

While average income tax rates differ by country, the "tax wedge"—the percentage of labor costs taken by income tax and social security contributions—provides a comprehensive measure of the tax burden on middle-class earners. In 2024, the tax wedge for a single worker earning the average wage was:

• Norway: 36.4%
• Denmark: 36.1%
• Finland: 42% (data from 2023)
• Sweden: 42% (data from 2023)

*above quote is from Googles’s AI Overview*

 

[gman]

A remarkable place that I don't understand despite having spent many months there. Show up at 9:30am, long coffee/pastry and lunch breaks, everyone's left work by 4pm, all the benefits they could ask for and yet they manage to be economically competitive on the world stage. Consider me baffled.

Europeans work to live. Americans live to work. It’s a cultural thing. Our culture always seems to be stressed out over one thing or another.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Hmmmmmmm.

I find your proposal fascinating......and I'd love to hear more about it Friend!

Whats your angle? How can I get up in some of that oil subsidy money?

Move to Alaska.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Move to Alaska.

Nahhhhh. Been there.

I want to stay where I'm at. No wait....if I had me some oil subsidy money I'd move. But not to Alaska.

I've been there. Maybe OK for an outback woods trip. I don't hunt so I imagine I'd have a camera. I'd carry a weapon just for safety purposes, there are animals there that will kill you if you aren't careful.

But live there? Oh HELL no.

 

[BirdinHand]

Seems to me that if the US were to ban private schools and implement state-paid allowance increases for good grades, then we could cheaply upgrade the public schools. Universal and quantitative standards of academic performance as universal and quantitative criteria in hiring decisions would make focusing on school more worthwhile for kids who keep to the straight and narrow.

The current system punishes hard work and good grades.

No, it doesn’t.

I made, I think, something like a 4.5 GPA and I've gone twenty years without a job. I think my highest wages ever were all lower than the current legal minimum wage in the US.

Whose fault is that? Sounds like you had the potential and then did nothing with it

We also need laws that make it so that those who have been unemployed longest receive higher priority in hiring decisions.

That makes no sense. Employers don’t want go hire individuals that have poor work history. Because generally those individuals do not make for good employees.

That way instead of all those people who go on Social Security because they could work but they can't get hired, we would have people working all those jobs, even minimum wage jobs, that companies are "having trouble" hiring people for.

The only people receiving Social Security are elderly or the disabled.

 

[Allan]

That’s not the “Nordic model”.

It could be the American model.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I support higher taxes and universal health care. Less so for the other stuff.

If we want to help the poor (beyond health care expenditures) we should do it in the form of child tax credits or child basic income.

The big problem with the Nordic model, IMO, is that it has a lot of inherent tension with liberal immigration policies, as some of those nations are realizing themselves. They can choose to go full Stephen Miller, or they can curb some of their social spending. They tend to choose the former, but I think the latter would be a better solution.

Let's make America a good place to have kids and get medical care, and a good place for smart people from all over the world to come to live. We don't necessarily need a safety hammock, just a safety net.

Creating a situation where a McJob + numerous “safety net” program benefits allows enjoying a (lower?) middle class standard of living should be avoided.

 

[BirdinHand]

Creating a situation where a McJob + numerous “safety net” program benefits allows enjoying a (lower?) middle class standard of living should be avoided.

Why?

Shouldn’t everyone be entitled to a modest standard of living?

 

[ttwtt78640]

It could be the American model.

That’s what Mamdani, Bernie Sanders and AOC keep saying, yet this thread is about the Nordic model.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Why?

Shouldn’t everyone be entitled to a modest standard of living?

That would create a situation making (on the books) work (beyond a part-time McJob?) optional.

 

[BirdinHand]

That would create a situation making (on the books) work (beyond a part-time McJob?) optional.

No more than any other system.

People that want more will continue to work for more - just as they do currently.

The only difference is that those at the lowest end of the economic scale wouldn’t live life barely hanging on and constantly stressed about losing their house, not being able to afford medical care, not being able to afford childcare, etc.



They’d be happier and more secure.

And - at least from where I sit - that’s a net positive to a society.

 

[ttwtt78640]

No more than any other system.

People that want more will continue to work for more - just as they do currently.

The only difference is that those at the lowest end of the economic scale wouldn’t live life barely hanging on and constantly stressed about losing their house, not being able to afford medical care, not being able to afford childcare, etc.



They’d be happier and more secure.

And - at least from where I sit - that’s a net positive to a society.

Now that we get almost $40K/year in SS benefits, we opt to work far less than before.

 

[BirdinHand]

Now that we get almost $40K/year in SS benefits, we opt to work far less than before.

You are also senior citizens.

I don’t want to see senior citizens HAVING to work full time.

I think people should be able to retire and enjoy life without working

 

[ttwtt78640]

You are also senior citizens.

I don’t want to see senior citizens HAVING to work full time.

I think people should be able to retire and enjoy life without working

My point was having that level of “safety net” program assistance available at any age would allow fairly comfortable living with little (or no) work.

 

[PopTart]

The Nordic model provides free healthcare, education, childcare, and more, but it comes at a very steep price compared to what we pay now:

If you want the Nordic model, no matter where you are on the economic ladder, you will bend over for the tax man and no lubrication will be provided. All of the Nordic countries have a 25% VAT, they all tax the shit out of gasoline, diesel, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. Norway is a petro-state, and gas is $8 per gallon there because of taxes. In Denmark, to register a $20,000 car, there is an 85% tax. A $40,000 car gets hit with a 150% tax. That's why you see pictures of miserable Danes riding their bikes in the rain and snow.

The Nordic model describes the socio-economic and political systems of Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden, characterized by a universal welfare state with comprehensive public services, a mixed economy combining free-market capitalism with strong social protections, and a high degree of collective bargaining between unions and employers. Key features include high taxes to fund public services like universal healthcare and education, a commitment to social equality, and strong social safety nets to provide economic security and reduce poverty.
Key Characteristics

• Universal Welfare State: Extensive public services, such as healthcare, childcare, and parental leave, are funded by high taxes and accessible to all citizens.
• Mixed Economy: While embracing free-market capitalism and encouraging innovation and business, the model also features robust social safety nets and regulations.
• Strong Labor Market Institutions: Collective bargaining between powerful employer and labor organizations is central, leading to higher wages, stronger worker protections, and lower levels of industrial conflict.
• Emphasis on Social Equality and Trust: The model prioritizes social cohesion and collective responsibility, with a cultural emphasis on trust, consensus, and reduced disparities in wealth and opportunity.
• High Levels of Public Services and Social Protection: Citizens experience significant economic security, with systems designed to protect them from poverty, illness, and financial ruin.

How it Works

1. High Taxation: A high tax burden funds extensive public services and social benefits.
2. Collective Bargaining: Unions and employer organizations negotiate wages and working conditions, which helps maintain social stability and ensure fair pay.
3. Social Safety Net: The welfare system provides a baseline of economic security, ensuring that individuals can access essential services and support even during difficult times.
4. Public-Private Partnerships: The model encourages collaboration between the state and private businesses to drive innovation and growth, particularly in areas like clean energy.

Challenges

• Demographic Changes: An aging population puts pressure on the financial sustainability of the welfare state, as the ratio of contributors to beneficiaries shifts.
• Integration of Immigrants: Integrating newcomers into a system based on strong social cohesion and a shared vision of the common good can present challenges.
• Evolving Economic Landscapes: The model faces pressure from globalization and deregulation, leading to some shifts in policies, such as reduced benefits and greater wage decentralization.

reposted: https://www.google.com/search?q=nor...1MTI0ajBqMTWoAgiwAgE&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[BirdinHand]

My point was having that level of “safety net” program assistance available at any age would allow fairly comfortable living with little (or no) work.

Some people will be content with a minimum standard of living

Others won’t.

I’m in full support of making sure that all people are entitled to a decent standard of living.