Do you support cutting taxes, even if it increases the deficit?

[George50]

Sorry didn't notice the error...........


The recession was 2/3's over when Obama took office

The recession was at its worst when Obama took office in January of 2009. We were losing over 700,000 jobs a month.

and got his huge unnecessary

Few say that.

stimulus spending and had ended before any was even spent

Not true. Although things did stop getting worse as soon as people stopped panicking when they saw that there was finally a plan in place.

and then they kept it over $1,000B for the next THREE YEARS producing the worst economic recovery in modern history especially compared to the Bush43/Rep 2001 response and recovery.

Apples and oranges. Obviously it’s going to take longer to recover from the Great Recession compared to what were bumps in the road. That’s why they call the Bush recession the “Great Recession.” The hit to the economy was second only to the Great Depression.

Republican foot dragging? What Republican foot dragging? When Obama took office because he and his fellow Dems did not pass the measures the could have mitigated the depth and length of the recession he got what HE VOTED FOR.

Democrats did not have the votes until after the 2008 election. The bill passed the senate with only 61 votes. That was only possible because Democrats gained 8 seats in the senate in the 2008 elections. That gave them 59 seats and with a few Republican votes they were able to get the required 60 votes.

https://www.politico.com/story/2009/02/senate-passes-787-billion-stimulus-bill-018837

He claimed that if he got his stimulus passed it would hold unemployment to just 8% for one quarter and then fall again. But as you noted with all the money being handed out just like when Biden became President, people didn't go back to work and unemployment hit that 10% and stayed over 8% for the next 3 years.

Yes, it was more difficult to recover than expected from the Bush Great Recession.

Want to compare that to the Bush43/Rep response in the 2001 dot.com/recession/9-11 attack economy?

Apples and oranges. The Bush Great Recession was called Great for a reason.

The bill was passed in February and signed by President OBAMA including his huge unnecessary stimulus just so he could say he RESCUED the economy as Biden did after COVID.

Nonsense. When the economy is collapsing doing nothing is irresponsible.

YES I agree we can stipulate that the response to the 2008/2009 recession was sorely lacking and as a result was longer and deeper than necessary and the recovery was one of the worst in modern history. And in doing so took that last Rep deficit of that measly $161B to their HUGE $1,400B

Yes, it’s a shame that the Bush recession caused so much damage.

And the depth and length and horrible recovery due to the policies and lack thereof by the Democrat Congress and then President.

Due to the Bush recession. The greatest fiscal calamity since the Great Depression.

Trump inherited an economy that had FINALLY started to shows signs of getting back on track after the Rep took back the Congress and stymied any more harm Obama could do to it. Biden inherit and economy that had just BOOMED

10 million people out of work, many of them for months, supply chains all screwed up, new Covid strains popping up, I could go on and on but booming?

out of Covid with Operation Warp Speed having accomplished getting the vaccines out and all he had to do was get out of the way. Instead he passed his HUGE unnecessary spending sending us into Bidenflation

What a bunch of nonsense. The same stupid argument that Biden caused worldwide inflation. We are just damn lucky that Trump didn’t stand in the way of Operation Warp Speed. Unfortunately we won’t be so lucky if we have another pandemic with mister ”there is no safe, effective vaccine” in charge.

And no the deficits for the first three years of Trump's terms were not bigger that Biden and the fact remains then as now Trump was requesting LESS spending than Congress approved.

Trump is the guy who adds to the debt and he’s planning to do it again.

 

[rahl]

They hit RECORD high increases, prove that those revenue increases slowed

Math.

and explain how Bush could have and should have vetoed the FY2009 therefore the $1,400 is attributable to him instead of Obama.

It’s so funny that you still don’t know how a bill becomes law.

 

[rahl]

No they went up ACTUALLY hitting double digit increases after the Gingrich/Kasich and Bush43/Rep Congress, still the subject of the thread about supporting cutting taxes.

It is a mathematical impossibility to collect more of something by collecting it at a lower percentage.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Um, no, spending and revenue are the variables, the sum, the "final part" is "Debt " or Surplus.

Perhaps the math is hard.

You can feel fre to quibble over what the "final part" of an equation is. I'm pretty sure you're intelligent enough to figure out what I meant if you tried.

I know, which is why it was so weird that you were bothered to state what services you would cut at the beginning of the thread.

It still doesn't matter.

But right now I'm still trying to get you to admit lower tax rates, the initiating factor, causes lower revenue.

The cause of lower revenues is irrelevant. The spending is the final step. If I start twenty feet from the edge of a cliff and you bump me, causing me to stumble a few steps, it's not your fault when I keep walking those last ten feet and step off the precipice. You didn't cause me to walk off that cliff. I kept walking. It was that last step that caused me to fall, not your bump. (Hint: you are the tax cut, the last step is the spending of the money I didn't have.)

Because you were bothered that anyone pointed out that cuts cause lower revenue,

I don't care. It's irrelevant to my point because it's irrelevant.

so much you demanded I show you held that view.

No, I didn't demand that.

Here you go again, you have been emphasizing cutting spending at the end of the thread, but at the start, it bothered you to discuss it. Weird, dishonest posting, all the time.

There's nothing at all dishonest about my posting. I'm surprised you'd make that mistake, as you're the expert here.

It is the basis of the argument, from the start of the thread when you claimed lower rates do not cause debt.

They don't.

This is hamster wheel shit, round and round.

Then get off.

That was the premise

And I rejected the premise.

You didn't want to discuss any cuts at the start.

BECAUSE THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

I'm not lacking in integrity in this debate, you have not shown it.

Oh, I've pointed it out. But because you apparently have a very short memory, here's two:

you deny that revenue cuts does not mean you would have to cut services.

you argue cutting taxes does not cause lower revenue

I did neither of these things. If you believe otherwise, QUOTE IT.

 

[NWRatCon]

If you can't argue with some modicum of intellectual integrity, you end up posting hypocritical nonsense.

This, my friend, is what responding to trolling results in. There was never an attempt at "honesty". Your correspondent is playing with the words and pretending that they make sense. He's avoiding reality. His original claim was deliberately ignoring deficits and focusing on a simplistic use of the term "debt". The reality is, he's wrong for a variety of economic reasons and his argument is Sophistry. By definition, Sophistry is hypocritical, and intellectually dishonest. But, that's the posting "style" adopted.

 

[antiquity]

Tax cuts do not add to revenue. It’s a mathematical impossibility to do so.

Tax cuts actually puts more money into the economy and more into businesses who pay more taxes... thus more revenue.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

You can feel fre to quibble over what the "final part" of an equation is. I'm pretty sure you're intelligent enough to figure out what I meant if you tried.

LOL...if you cant identify the variables from the result in a simple equation, maybe you need remedial ed, good grief.

It still doesn't matter.

Yes, it does in this thread, the premise is low tax rate and holding other variables constant.

The cause of lower revenues is irrelevant.

No, the lower rate causes lower revenue, as described by the OP.

The spending is the final step.

Actually, no, in the US budget process, Congress describes the spending and tax levels BEFORE revenue is collected. You are having trouble with math AND civics.

I don't care. It's irrelevant to my point because it's irrelevant.

No, the lower rates is essential to the OP, if you don't want to debate within the framework of the OP, then you can create your own thread with whatever fantasy country and budget process you like.

No, I didn't demand that.

Really? You are demanding it at the end of this post:

I did neither of these things. If you believe otherwise, QUOTE IT.

You are again demanding that I show where you denied lower taxes causes lower revenue. We have already gone over this and you are simply going in circles. You already agreed that lower rates "can" cause lower revenues. This was the premise of the OP, and nobody cares if you reject this premise or if you reject reality. You can stick your head in the sand, wave your hands and create all sorts of alternative universes with new, self created math systems....nobody cares. It is your fantasy.

 

[AZRWinger]

Baloney...

Be honest, you have never balanced a checkbook.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Tax cuts actually puts more money into the economy and more into businesses who pay more taxes... thus more revenue.

Corporations only pay tax on profits.... and at a lower rate. You capture less revenue under your trickle down scheme, which has been shown in real world terms over and over again.

 

[ataraxia]

Yes, because taxes are too goddamn high. We get taxed on everything - income, sales, investments, you name it. Earn money? The state takes a big cut. Spend it? They take another cut. Save or invest? That gets taxed too. Own a house? You’re paying rent to the government forever in the form of property tax - miss a payment and see who really owns your home. This is not a system of "public service", it’s legalized extortion. The state is worse than the mafia, because at least the mafia doesn't pretend shaking you down is for your own good.

"I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr

 

[ataraxia]

Cutting taxes does not increase the debt. Spending beyond revenues is what increases the debt, in all cases.

So where is the current bill decreasing spending?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Be honest, you have never balanced a checkbook.

Ye olde "household budgets are just like Congressional budgets" meme.

 

[AZRWinger]

This is demonstrably false.

The debt = spending - revenue

Revenue is taxes.

"(Under) Trump tax policies in 2022, tax revenues reached a record high of nearly $5 trillion, and revenues averaged $205 billion above CBO predictions for the four years following implementation of the law."

Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

Armed with the fact revenues increased to a record high using your formula the only way the debt increased is due to spending increasing. It's simple arithmetic.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

So where is the current bill decreasing spending?

He is still operating in Ayn Rand Land.

 

[aociswundumho]

"I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr

Holmes also considered eugenics to be part of a civilized society. He was a progressive who upheld compulsory sterilization laws. In buck v bell he wrote:

“It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind...

That progressive scumbag is no authority on what "civilization" means.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

"(Under) Trump tax policies in 2022, tax revenues reached a record high

You mean under the Biden admin when IRS staffing was increased and targeted high earner enforcement of the current rates? Yes, that resulted in high revenues.

Donny is undoing all of that.

 

[ataraxia]

That progressive scumbag is no authority on what "civilization" means.

It's not the freedom of the jungle, that's for sure.

 

[stealthycat]

LOL "increase taxes" voters

for what? like, what would be the goal ?


there will NEVER be a lower of the national debt. EVER .... its a runaway train and it will never be stopped until it crashed hard into something

 

[Gimmesometruth]

LOL "increase taxes" voters

for what? like, what would be the goal ?


there will NEVER be a lower of the national debt. EVER .... its a runaway train and it will never be stopped until it crashed hard into something

Cool, then you have washed your hands of the entire discussion.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

eugenics

whatabout

 

[stealthycat]

Cool, then you have washed your hands of the entire discussion.

what discussion ?

liberals want everyone to pay 10-20% more in taxes and for what? the national debt will grow to 40, to 50, to 80 trillion in the coming years


there isn't any amount of taxing that'll stop it - you DO know that don't you ?

 

[Gimmesometruth]

what discussion ?

The one you are not a part of.

liberals want everyone to pay 10-20% more in taxes and for what?

That is not a part of this discussion, you are not a part of this discussion.

the national debt will grow to 40, to 50, to 80 trillion in the coming years

like I said, you are involved in some other discussion.

there isn't any amount of taxing that'll stop it - you DO know that don't you ?

I was NEVER aware that "taxes stop the spending". I keep telling you, you are in the wrong thread.

 

[Absentglare]

"(Under) Trump tax policies in 2022, tax revenues reached a record high of nearly $5 trillion, and revenues averaged $205 billion above CBO predictions for the four years following implementation of the law."

Despite CBO’s Predictions, Trump Tax Cuts Were a Boon for America’s Economy and Working Families | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

Armed with the fact revenues increased to a record high using your formula the only way the debt increased is due to spending increasing. It's simple arithmetic.

Biden’s booming economy gave us a huge increase in federal tax revenue, which was flat under Trump.

Trump put us deep into debt with his tax cuts. And now his trade wars are making our debt more expensive.

 

[rahl]

Tax cuts actually puts more money into the economy and more into businesses who pay more taxes... thus more revenue.

Nope. This is the snake oil righties try and sell, but we have over 4 decades of data showing this never happens.

Every single time since Reagan, when righties have cut taxes, we took in less revenue and the debt and deficit EXPLODED.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

This, my friend, is what responding to trolling results in. There was never an attempt at "honesty". Your correspondent is playing with the words and pretending that they make sense. He's avoiding reality. His original claim was deliberately ignoring deficits and focusing on a simplistic use of the term "debt". The reality is, he's wrong for a variety of economic reasons and his argument is Sophistry. By definition, Sophistry is hypocritical, and intellectually dishonest. But, that's the posting "style" adopted.

It must be so much easier to just assume your opponents are lying than to actually think about what they're saying.