Alastor said:I would say I agree with the assertion.
The first reason is because a couple of years ago (under the Clinton Administration) the head of Singapore's Education Department came to the U.S. to study our schools. The media was fairly baffled, and they asked during a new conference why he'd study the American school system when his kids regularly beat the tar out of ours on testing. His response was something along the lines of, "Because all our kids know how to do is take tests."
That's... Pretty compelling.
The second reason I'd agree is that in high school, yes it's true that our scores don't measure up. However, during and after college, no students in the entire world outperform American kids. It's as though the other nations harp on lower education so much; that their kids become so saturated in it, that once they co hit college they're burnt out. They don't study and don't take it seriously. It's more of a celebration that they got there, than a focus on what they should be doing there. Where-as our kids tend to actually focus on the subjects, and learn. I know most of us who went to college would disagree, but that does indeed seem to be the case. Despite how much we partied, apparently they make us look focused and studious.
Third, those tests are crap. Ever taken one? They're a joke. They measure nothing except memorization. Very little of the test is based on subjective reasoning, risk management, analytical skills or problem-solving. Tests also cannot measure imagination or innovation. Our kids are raised in an environment that nurtures and focuses their imagination and innovative mind. They "create" rather than recite.
And there are other reasons too... but that's enough for now I think.
That's my view on it.
nkgupta80 said:well see, this is how i look at it. In india, we have private schools that can barely afford one computer lab or "clean, nurturuing, classrooms". Nonetheless, they are churning out top math and science students who perform similarily with top math and science students in the US if not better.
What does that say about our education system? With all the money our public schools get, the kid in india has similar/better math and science skills than the average kid here. That shows that we're not doin somethin rite...
If schools in india or china had the money we had, their students would go far beyond ours.
The only thing that saves us is our top notch universities.
Alastor said:But... there's a lot you're leaving out there or that isn't obvious. In those environments, that is the only way for those kids to get ahead, and they are very strict in their classroom education. They memorize things because that's the ONLY way out of their circumstance. Our children use imagination and innovation, because in America that's valued more than being able to calculate pi to the tenth decimal.
Another thing that I think people fail to realize is that while those students score well on tests, their suicide rates are absurd among their youth. Seriously. I'll dig up some stats if you want - their society places so much pressure on their kids and their educations, that they memorize things and don't ever think outside the box - and if they fail to perform the pressures are so enormous that they often whack themselves.
There are trade-offs.
And as I pointed out before, when our kids graduate high school and enter college, they've either caught up to our passed their foreign counter-parts in terms of education. Except that our children can innovate as well.
Tedious work should be second nature to these kids by the time they finish elementary school.
Alastor said:I think you have some unrealistic expectations of what kids are (or should be) capable of by certain ages.
On the instance of your Columbia students...
When I was in high school, everyone talked about how hard college would be if I ever got there. I didn't get there, I got kicked out of three schools. I dropped out of a fourth. I finally got my GED, and then my diploma, and less than 12 hours later was at Lackland AFB in Texas starting my basic training.
Four years later I left the military to go to college, which everyone said would be very very hard.
I was scared, because it was supposed to be so hard.
Three and a half years later, while mostly drunk and entirely sleep-deprived, while having rarely cracked a book and having ditched enough to get me booted from most classes, I walked across the stage to accept my degree in two major fields, History and Political Science (not slack majors, folks).
I also got handed my award for being the President of the debate team, the President of the National History Honors society (on my campus, not nationally), President of the Pre-law club, National Honors Student in both majors, member of two other clubs (because they had the hot girls)... And again, I was falling down drunk at the time.
I made academic scholarships every semester, was on the Dean's List, the President's list, and was one of the DJs for the radio station at night on weekends. I also worked full time while I went to school.
So did most of my friends.
We weren't especially bright. I've been tested; my IQ is somewhere in the low 100s - about average.
I partied very hard. But I also had just a genuine passion for learning. So did the guys and gals I hung out with in college. It's not a matter of brains or training. It's a matter of "want to." That cannot be taught in schools.
My friends and I all did very well in college, and I'm preparing to go get my doctorate from the same school as Condi Rice and Indira Ghandi. I'm not alone, some of my friends are going with me or are already there.
None of us were from Singapore.
We are not preparing our children properly for adulthood and for educational environments.
-Demosthenes- said:The point is that they don't have to be prepared as much as kids in "3rd world" or other countries.
Alastor said:I disagree. I don't think the above is the point.
I think the point is that their environment is different, and thus our kids must be prepared differently.
We got the creativity part down, we just need to teach kids with more rigour now. Fun cannot compromise strong work-ethic and discipline.
nkgupta80 said:But our schools can do better. We got the creativity part down, we just need to teach kids with more rigour now. Fun cannot compromise strong work-ethic and discipline. Some kids naturally have it and succeed, but other kids are just left behind. When schools in places like india, with much less moeny can produce students that have similar strengths to students here, where the schools have much more money, you know that something is off. I guess our culture, also, doesn't place much emphasis on academics like it should. Its no wonder why asian/first-generation immigrant kids tend to perform better than children from Americanized families.
Alastor said:I disagree. I don't think the above is the point.
I think the point is that their environment is different, and thus our kids must be prepared differently.
Kelzie said:I don't think it's the school's job to create a work ethic in kids. It's the parent's job.
I dunno. It's the arts programs that get cut in most schools first. We have standardized testing now... I think we can make a strong case that if we're lacking anything, analytical and interpretive skills (which come from the arts) are what we're lacking. I don't hear much about a shortage of Math books these days. I know a lot of music programs that are completely gone however.
nkgupta80 said:i do agree its the parent's job. But schools don't give enough hw and/or challenging hw to help create that work-ethic. Parent's can tell kids to do their work, but if kids are finishing that work in a matter of half an hour (a lot of elementary kids seem to do so), how can they build that work ethic. give kids 50 math problems in arithmetic everyday in 2nd grade, and im sure teachers won't have to go over the same damn arithmetic in later grades.
nkgupta80 said:compare our standard tests in various grades (for math and science) to the standards required in abroad, its almost retarded. We repeat the same damn curriculum in math for 5 years in elementary school. Why? Cause kids are expected to forget all the stuff they learned. So instead of giving them more work to make sure they remember and understand, we just repeat the same subject matters over the elementary-middle school years. That wasted time could go into any number of things, from teaching higher math, to extra arts programs, to teaching kids an extra language.
Kelzie said:That's not true at all. My sister is in second grade, brother's in fourth, and they both have at least an hour of homework a night. From a public school. It is very possible that the homework is assigned, but kids don't do it. I know that's still a problem in college.
How long has it been since you were in elementary school? I certainly don't remember learning arithmetic past second grade. And I can tell you my brother in fourth doesn't learn it.
It's so easy to blame the system and the teachers. The system doesn't vote and there aren't that many teachers. Parents, now. Parents make up a substantial voting block. No politician is going to tell them that education can only be fixed if they raise their kids right. Public schools are not going to guarantee success. They give kids the tools to succeed, but only if they take them.
The fastest, most effective, most reliable way to improve our nation's education is to allow school choice.
Alastor said:That's an assertion, not a fact.
Alastor said:The best school systems in the world in fact, are all governmentally controlled and not privatized at all. There is no voucher system in Japan, Singapore, India or any of the other nations Americans are all worried about being better in education than we are.
Alastor said:Evidence to support the claim I quoted does not exist, while ample evidence to the contrary does.
In fact, just today Harvard released a study of the No Child Left Behind Act and deemed it a miserable failure, having worsened the educational system overall rather than improve any of it.
Alastor said:I think you have some unrealistic expectations of what kids are (or should be) capable of by certain ages.
On the instance of your Columbia students...
When I was in high school, everyone talked about how hard college would be if I ever got there. I didn't get there, I got kicked out of three schools. I dropped out of a fourth. I finally got my GED, and then my diploma, and less than 12 hours later was at Lackland AFB in Texas starting my basic training.
Four years later I left the military to go to college, which everyone said would be very very hard.
I was scared, because it was supposed to be so hard.
Three and a half years later, while mostly drunk and entirely sleep-deprived, while having rarely cracked a book and having ditched enough to get me booted from most classes, I walked across the stage to accept my degree in two major fields, History and Political Science (not slack majors, folks).
I also got handed my award for being the President of the debate team, the President of the National History Honors society (on my campus, not nationally), President of the Pre-law club, National Honors Student in both majors, member of two other clubs (because they had the hot girls)... And again, I was falling down drunk at the time.
I made academic scholarships every semester, was on the Dean's List, the President's list, and was one of the DJs for the radio station at night on weekends. I also worked full time while I went to school.
So did most of my friends.
We weren't especially bright. I've been tested; my IQ is somewhere in the low 100s - about average.
I partied very hard. But I also had just a genuine passion for learning. So did the guys and gals I hung out with in college. It's not a matter of brains or training. It's a matter of "want to." That cannot be taught in schools.
My friends and I all did very well in college, and I'm preparing to go get my doctorate from the same school as Condi Rice and Indira Ghandi. I'm not alone, some of my friends are going with me or are already there.
None of us were from Singapore.
GySgt said:Our environments have a lot to do with it too.
Face it, our environment is one of complete freedom, dissention, and expression. Our rights have come at a price. Our children are raised watching tv programming directed at selling and influencing more than ever. Our "cartoons" are crude and simple and our children watch them intently. Our music is very violent and aggresive. If you wrap all of this up and hurl it towards an impressionable young mind, we have a problem. Our teachers are constantly having to deal with discipline problems that we do not hear about from other countries. Our schools have metal detectors. The children who wish to learn must put up with the great number of students who want nothing to with school and "we can't make them."
Teachers blame the parents. Parents blame the teachers. Hillary blames the "village.":roll: The blame belongs on our society. We are not preparing our children properly for adulthood and for educational environments. These third world countries do not have such exposure forced upon their children. The freer and more progressive a society is, the harder it is to focus. What do the children in less developed countries have to focus on? To many out there, education is hammered as a means to glorious ends and success. In America, the quick buck is the ticket - whether it be from wearing Jordan's Nikes to being a multi-millionaire contracted athlete or winning the lottery.
Of course, this doesn't apply to all, but I'm sure you get my general point.
-Demosthenes- said:The point is that they don't have to be prepared as much as kids in "3rd world" or other countries.