Do we act against Iran?

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I dont know if this has been discussed in this thread and Im definately not going to read all the crap, but has anyone heard of the "petrol chemical dollar"

Basically it means that Iran want to sell oil in Euro's instead of dollars and GWB doesn't want this. Iraq wanted to do the same before the 2nd Gulf War and we saw what happened. A lot of these Arab countries want to do the same, Saudi Arabia included. Basically America's economy goes down the drain BIG TIME. Most of the money that Saudi Arabia makes from oil is kept in a bank account in a major American bank (the name I forget, doesn't matter)

First off I'm pretty sure that Iran can't unilatterly switch to the Euro because they're members of OPEC and so far the only OPEC nations which want to switch to the Euro are Iran and Venezuela.

Not even the Europeans want the Euro to replace the Dollar as the reserve currency, because if the dollar crashes the whole global economy would crash not just the U.S.'s.

 

[davieravie]

Like Iran and the rest of them give a toss???? America's economy goes into meltdown, all the Euro's make Europe become the New Superpower. The Arab countries become richer too. Why do you think most European countries were against the war in the first place??? It was nothing to do with "standing shoulder to shoulder" with the US!! They want the Euro's!! Lot of oil there especially in Iran. Everyone needs it and everyone wants the revenue from it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Like Iran and the rest of them give a toss???? America's economy goes into meltdown, all the Euro's make Europe become the New Superpower. The Arab countries become richer too. Why do you think most European countries were against the war in the first place??? It was nothing to do with "standing shoulder to shoulder" with the US!! They want the Euro's!! Lot of oil there especially in Iran. Everyone needs it and everyone wants the revenue from it.

Like I said the Europeans don't want the dollar to crash that would destroy the world economy not just the economy of the U.S.; furthermore, if the U.S. got rid of our foriegn and national debt the replacement of the dollar with the euro as the worlds reserve currency would only prohibit the U.S. from spending more than it produces and would not destroy the economy. If this were to happen with the U.S. debt as high as it is though, it could crash our economy but that would be bad for the entire world and that's why nobody wants it.

Also, the OPEC nations follow the Saudi's lead and the Saudi's aren't going to switch from the Dollar to the Euro because they are so heavily invested in U.S. interests, this is probably one of the main reasons why we overlook the Saudi's, shall we say, bad behavior.

 

[davieravie]

Smirnoff ICE
would only prohibit the U.S. from spending more than it produces and would not destroy the economy. If the this happened with the U.S. debt as high as it is though, it could crash our economy but that would be bad for the entire world and that's why nobody wants it..

America is spending far more than it produces already. Thats why everyone has things in their wallet/ purses called VISA, Master card etc and are heavily used.

Who says the Europeans dont want to become the new Superpower and have the controlling interests in what goes on in the world. Why did they invent the Euro anyway and make all thes agreements between each other??? Because they were bored and had nothing else to do??

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

America is spending far more than it produces already. Thats why everyone has things in their wallet/ purses called VISA, Master card etc and are heavily used.

Who says the Europeans dont want to become the new Superpower and have the controlling interests in what goes on in the world. Why did they invent the Euro anyway and make all thes agreements between each other??? Because they were bored and had nothing else to do??

That's what I'm saying I know that the U.S. spends more than it produces and without a national or foriegn debt that's the only effect on our economy that this would have.

The Europeans want a gradual shift from dollar to euro as the worlds reserve currency they don't want it to happen all at once, because that would fuc/k up the entire worlds economy not just that of the U.S..

Furthermore; what makes you think that the world wants to replace the Dollar with the Euro anyways? The dollar has been put up against the Euro many times and it has always won out. And like I said the Saudi's pretty much dictate the postititons of OPEC and the Saudis are never going to switch from the Dollar to the Euro, they're to heavily invested in the U.S. to have our economy falter.

The only countries that want to switch from the dollar to the euro are of course Germany and France because it's in their national interests, and countries like Iran and Venezuela, because they hate the U.S. but the majority of nations do not want to switch, because of the superiority of the U.S. economy to that of European Nations.

and what the hell is up with the smirnoff ice that you added to my post?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

America is spending far more than it produces already. Thats why everyone has things in their wallet/ purses called VISA, Master card etc and are heavily used.

Who says the Europeans dont want to become the new Superpower and have the controlling interests in what goes on in the world. Why did they invent the Euro anyway and make all thes agreements between each other??? Because they were bored and had nothing else to do??

Are you just ignoring what the man is saying? If the US economy goes under, the world economy goes under. Exactly how is this good for Europe or anyone else? Our economy drives the global market, without it the global market goes into a freefall. We are the largest importer and exporter of goods and services in the world. Without this economic fuel the euro is a piece of paper with pretty pictures

 

[easyt65]

1st off, let me say that NO one WANTS to go to war...but it MAY come down to that.

Reminder:
1. Iran funds HAMAS, a terrorist organization who has sworn to wipe Isreal, our Ally, off the face of the earth.
2. Iran provided lodging and supplies to the perpetrators of 9-11, even helping them get into the country to committ the attacks.
3. Iran would love nothing more than to see uranium enriched in their country to find its way into the U.S., seen going off on World-wide TV in a dirty bomb or suitcase nuke that takes out one of our major cities, like New York.

"So you're saying Iran has nukes, like Iraq did?"
1. Background:
Days before we went into Iraq, UK Special Ops stopped a convoy going from Iraq into Iran. The convoy had nuclear material/uranium rods in it. As the war had not started yet, the Brits could not confiscate the material, but they did write down the serial numbers off the material and turned them in to the U.N. Nuclear Commission so that THEY could inspect the Iranian material later. A short time after that shipment, Iran announced they had a nuclear program going on - they have refused to let the U.N. inspect their material, so the U.N. can not check to see if it was the Iraqi Nuclear material the Iranians now have. While liberals have disputed the Brits report/account, Tony Blair and the Brit Special Ops unit stand by their report/account. Also, the U.N. Nuclear Commission verifies serial numbers of 'potential nuclear material' were turned into them days prior to the war.

2. 500 tons of Yellowcake Uranium
It's amazing how there is a recorded history of liberals like Clinton, both m/f versions, Kerry, and Gore declaring Iraq had nukes and how there needed to be a leadership change in Iraq. Then the Dems yelled 'no nukes in iraq'..until 500 tons of yellowcake uranium, that had disappeared off the U.N. Nuclear Commission's RADAR scope, was found in Baghdad after the war began. All of a sudden the Dems, in light of this revelation, declared to the world that 500 tons of Yellowcake Uranium, the ingredient required to refine and from which to make nuclear weapons, was no longer considered WMD...because they said so and because if it was to be considered WMD Bush would have been proven to be right. Couldn't have that!

3. "you're saying..."
No, the Leader of Iran HIMSELF has said on more than 1 occassion that his country has a nuclear weapons program, bragging about it to the world. When an enemy says it wants to kill your friend and has already helped someone kill members of your family and then says he has a Nuke.....are you really gonna wait around until he proves it or demands that he does prove it?

Israel:
Whether you like it or not, they are one of our allies.
"Just let Israel do it."
- Israel is surrounded by a sea of nations/people who want to genocidally eradicate them from the face of the earth. Hitler tried. Another attempt was tried later, as they were attacked again - Israel won, thus how they got Gaza. They have been bombed, at times, almost daily by terrorists/suicide bombers. Through it all, we get on TV and say 'bad bombers - stop' while telling Israel to exhibit restraint, chastizing them when they strike back at their attackers. (How long do you think it would take, how many suicide bombers would it take in Texas, before Mexico would be our 51st state, were the shoe to be on the other foot and we were getting attacked daily by Mexico? Where would OUR restraint be? What a crock!)
- They already stopped Iraq's attempt to build a nuclear plant on their own. As much as the Middle East doesn't want a nuclear-armed Iran, they are just waiting for an excuse to jump on Israel - making them strike Iran would be it. Once Israel was attacked, we would be in more 'trouble' helping to defend them than if we struck Iran ourselves.

We should Let the U.N. handle it.
1. Good gosh, how we forget. China, Russia, France, and members of the U.N., like the Leader of the U.N. and his son, were on the take for 12 YEARS from Hussein! They passed sanctions on them in public and brokered Black market deals to get rich under the table. Jacques Chirac and Annan personally made millions in the scandal, yet both are still in power. These SAME criminals are in the SAME positions to pull off the SAME scams with Iran as they did against Iraq. Annan and Chirac should be behind bars, Russia, france, and china should be on suspension from the Security Council for betraying the world (including us, Brits, and the Iraqi people), and the Iranian issue should have already been brought up to the U.N. Council! John Kerry, the 2004 DNC Presidential candidate, advocated that we leave everything up to the U.N. - his trust was rewarded with the exposing of the oil-For-Food scandal, making him and many who believed in the U.N. look like idiots. Kerry has often called for Bush to admit he made a mistake going into Iraq. I have not heard Kerry once say that he was wrong to call for America to entrust our security to the U.N.!

2. Russia's idea of them providing Iran with material for their nuclear plants sounds like a good idea...but read the above paragraph - do you really trust a country who betrayed you for 12 years while smiling at you from across the table. Besides, during the early days of the war, Russia had GPS jammers, specifically designed to jam our weapons, and their people running them - protecting specific major targets. Because of them, we had to send in Special Ops guys to take them out instead, resulting in several personnel killed that did not have to be because of the Soviets. The soviets quickly pulled their equipment and people out when we assured them we would not hesitate bombing targets with 'dumb' bombs, not caring if their people were there or not. Again, not only were they propping up Hussein's govt for 12 years through the Black market they helped establish, but they also caused needless American deaths in the early days of the war.

We couldn't take out all their facilities.
Not all of them, but we could set their program back a few YEARS while getting their attention and possibly bringing them to a point where they want to talk.

If we do launch a strike, what could happen?
After marching into Iraq for a leadership change as the answer to a WMD problem, the U.S. could launch an air/missile strike only - no intention of sending troops in....but Iran could take it as a pre-invasion strike. So what? They could mine the whole gulf, expecting our navy to be in-bound. Most of the world's oil flows through that gulf - the affects of mining, slowing or stopping oil shipments, could cause a dire impact on the global economy. Iran could also launch missile attacks on several key locations/countries. They could even send their own forces into Iraq; however, their best gameplan would be to remain in their huge country with mountainous terrain.

THIS is a serious and growing problem. Previous leaders were faced with attacks and a growing problem - their failure to act resulted in the murder of Americans on American soil before we decided to respond and take the fight abroad. If Iran is allowed to develop a nuclear weapons program, you KNOW their program's impact will be felt on American soil - it's just a matter of time! Whoever the President is sitting in the Oval office, he is going to have to make another tough call. I believe it will still be in Bush's administration when that decision will have to be made....but a decision on what to do about Iran IS coming!

 

[easyt65]

Are you just ignoring what the man is saying? If the US economy goes under, the world economy goes under. Exactly how is this good for Europe or anyone else? Our economy drives the global market, without it the global market goes into a freefall. We are the largest importer and exporter of goods and services in the world. Without this economic fuel the euro is a piece of paper with pretty pictures

You speak as if Common Sense is a language spoken throughout the world.
If you are talking about just Europe, and I apologize for not havig read the post you mention above 1st, then you would be correct regarding your points. They would not mind seeing us 'humbled', though, rendered less effective militarily while our gluttonous population continues to spend the world's share of money, propping up their economies. Osama Bin Ladden, however, is a different story. He would love to see every skyscraper in the U.S. brought down, every American on our knees before him - either converted to Islam or beheaded, and the U.s. - the Great satan - destroyed once and for all. I mean, the man has been hanging in caves and mud huts for several years - you think he cares if the U.S. economy comes tumbling thereby bringing down the world's economy? Uh-uh!

 

[Calm2Chaos]

You speak as if Common Sense is a language spoken throughout the world.
If you are talking about just Europe, and I apologize for not havig read the post you mention above 1st, then you would be correct regarding your points. They would not mind seeing us 'humbled', though, rendered less effective militarily while our gluttonous population continues to spend the world's share of money, propping up their economies. Osama Bin Ladden, however, is a different story. He would love to see every skyscraper in the U.S. brought down, every American on our knees before him - either converted to Islam or beheaded, and the U.s. - the Great satan - destroyed once and for all. I mean, the man has been hanging in caves and mud huts for several years - you think he cares if the U.S. economy comes tumbling thereby bringing down the world's economy? Uh-uh!

No your right.. He does not care. And he would prefer that scenario to any other. But the world as a whole would not allow this to happen, because they have a stake in the global market. And the global destruction of the economic market benefits only the likes of Bin Laden. With the EU's inflation and unemployment they have there own problems to deal with first

 

[DocAR]

If the US determies that the Iranian nuke threat necessitates military action against it, and Russia/China vote against any such action in the UNSC -- do we act or not?

Hell no, let them nuke somebody first.

That way, we can be told that we "didn't do enough" to stop them from using a nuclear weapon.

Either way, we're going to be wrong. We might as well be able to say we "learned" from Iraq and waited until there was no possible doubt that they had a weapon of mass distruction.....

 

[davieravie]

and what the hell is up with the smirnoff ice that you added to my post?

Sorry about the smirnoff ice,that came from another reply to another forum

 

[easyt65]

No your right.. He does not care. And he would prefer that scenario to any other. But the world as a whole would not allow this to happen, because they have a stake in the global market. And the global destruction of the economic market benefits only the likes of Bin Laden. With the EU's inflation and unemployment they have there own problems to deal with first

You mean to say that you think countries like France, China, and Russia would actually come to our aid if we were getting throttled/on the verge of being defeated? :shock:

 

[davieravie]

The Europeans want a gradual shift from dollar to euro as the worlds reserve currency they don't want it to happen all at once, because that would fuc/k up the entire worlds economy not just that of the U.S

Correct!!!! Who wants the worlds' economy to crash?????

 

[davieravie]

Are you just ignoring what the man is saying? If the US economy goes under, the world economy goes under. Exactly how is this good for Europe or anyone else? Our economy drives the global market, without it the global market goes into a freefall. We are the largest importer and exporter of goods and services in the world. Without this economic fuel the euro is a piece of paper with pretty pictures

Don't think for one second that the EU and the US are " best buddies". They are to a certain extent but the truth is that they are competitors.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

You mean to say that you think countries like France, China, and Russia would actually come to our aid if we were getting throttled/on the verge of being defeated? :shock:

Not at all... Not exactly sure where you even go that notion. But remember there economy is tied into ours globaly. We go down they go down.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Don't think for one second that the EU and the US are " best buddies". They are to a certain extent but the truth is that they are competitors.

Again no.. But the EU is incapable of running the global economy at this time. And for it to be dropped in there lap would be devestating to there economy but also to the world economy. They don't have the stability within there system yet to take over for the dolar.

 

[Kelzie]

Not at all... Not exactly sure where you even go that notion. But remember there economy is tied into ours globaly. We go down they go down.

Which is exactly why they would come to our aid. No industrialized country would let the US collapse if they could help it.

 

[davieravie]

Again no.. But the EU is incapable of running the global economy at this time. And for it to be dropped in there lap would be devestating to there economy but also to the world economy. They don't have the stability within there system yet to take over for the dolar.

Politicians make decisions that affect things for years to come. Why do you think that even Turkey wants to join the EU along with half of the former Russian federation. Turkey is in Asia too!!! Its going to be massive, bigger than the US economy. And what with China's economy growing rapidly, the US must realise all its fears have come at once.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Don't think for one second that the EU and the US are " best buddies". They are to a certain extent but the truth is that they are competitors.

Of course we're competitors but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. economy is much more stable than the E.U. the world (save for the nations that hate the U.S.) prefers to remain to keep the dollar as the reserve currency and Saudi Arabia leads OPEC and is never going to switch to the Euro.

Also, when discussing trading alliances you have to take into consideration the U.S.'s own trading agreements; such as NAFTA CAFTA, and future agreements; such as, the FTAA and maybe even an entire Pacific trading agreement b/w North and South America Australia, and Asian countries. If we could get this trade agreement together (and people ARE trying) it would dwarf the E.U..

 

[Tashah]

Unlike the murky weapons of mass destruction pretension that impelled the Bush administration to invade Iraq, the Iranian goal of acquiring nuclear weapons is quite clear and unequivocal. The United States, the European Union, Russia, Israel, and the IAEA of the United Nations have assembled empirical evidence that Iran has been in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) since 2003. Additionally, the IAEA uncovered an undeclared facility where Iran is building a nuclear 'cascade-centrifuge'. The only use for this technology is to obtain highly enriched uranium (HEU) from uranium hexaflourine... a byproduct of the nuclear fuel cycle. This is the exact same method of enrichment used by North Korea and Pakistan to obtain fissile material for their nuclear weapons.

The Iranian government, which is a signatory to the NPT, publicly admits its NPT non-compliance and insists that it will proceed with its goal of acquiring a nuclear weapons capability... regardless of its NPT responsibilities and the sentiment of the global international community to end nuclear weapons proliferation. The IAEA is scheduled to present Iran's NPT violations and intransigence to all diplomatic efforts in this regard to the United Nations Security Council in February.

For public consumption, Iran states that its nuclear program is for energy purposes only. However, Iran's oil reserves are only second to those of Saudi Arabia. With these bountiful natural resources, Iran has no intrinsic need for nuclear power generation. Interestingly, Iran has rejected Russia's proposal that all Iranian nuclear waste be accounted for by the IAEA and then reprocessed in Russia. Why would any country reject a proposal that allows it generate nuclear energy without the headaches of nuclear waste?

Although support for military action is steadily increasing among American citizens... the Bush administration must still do a much better job of educating the American public about the dangers of a nuclear Iran. Clearly, along with the threat of a global health pandemic, the nuclear arming of Iran is the most pressing problem on the international stage today. With its harsh rhetoric of actually using nuclear weapons and its long history of supporting terrorism, the Iranian ruling clerics cannot be allowed to possess any weapons of mass destruction. Additionally, a nuclear armed Shi'a Iran would almost certainly compel Sunni Arab Middle East nations such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt to begin nuclear weapons programs of their own. Thus, the dangers of nuclear proliferation and nuclear warfare would increase exponentially over time.

It should also be posited that destroying the Iranian nuclear program would not necessarily entail a land invasion. This preemption could be accomplished with heavy and sustained air and cruise-missile strikes. I do not believe economic sanctions will be effective in this regard, as Iran will no doubt respond with a cessation of its oil exports... thus destabilizing the global economy.

The options here are not pretty. To imagine that Israel will act unilaterally against Iran ignores the hard truth that the IAF lacks the requisite tactical military assets to carry out an intense program of heavy and sustained attacks over a great geographical distance. Even if an Israeli preemption was feasible, it would almost certainly initiate warfare across the entire Middle East region... thus impelling a world-powers intervention with significant land forces.

Like it or not, any military actions against Iran must be undertaken by the United States, NATO, or an international coalition of the willing. France, Russia, and China will almost certainly oppose this, as they each have significant economic and military investments with Iran. This problem will not simply melt away however, and no doubt will get much worse before it gets better... but time is of the essence here and time is running out. Once Iran produces a fissile weapon, the nuclear genie will have escaped the Persian magic lamp and cannot ever be returned.

 

[easyt65]

BTW...we are on a 2-Year Clock with Iran!

What do I mean?

The Pres./Leader of Iran announced that he believes the Islamic version of the Christian Return of Jesus, that the return of the Islamic 'savior' is going to happen in the next 2 years. This return, he says, will be brought about through/along with some 'cataclysmic event'.

Combine that with his comments... that 'Israel should be destroyed', Iran now has the power/ability to do that (I believe he means they have the process to create that Nuckear weapon that will give them the ability to do that), and that an attack on Israel will 'end their problem' while an attack on them from Israel will only solidify the Middle East's resolve to bring about Israel's end...and you have a scary near-future lurking down the road.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

BTW...we are on a 2-Year Clock with Iran!

What do I mean?

The Pres./Leader of Iran announced that he believes the Islamic version of the Christian Return of Jesus, that the return of the Islamic 'savior' is going to happen in the next 2 years. This return, he says, will be brought about through/along with some 'cataclysmic event'.

Combine that with his comments... that 'Israel should be destroyed', Iran now has the power/ability to do that (I believe he means they have the process to create that Nuckear weapon that will give them the ability to do that), and that an attack on Israel will 'end their problem' while an attack on them from Israel will only solidify the Middle East's resolve to bring about Israel's end...and you have a scary near-future lurking down the road.

It maybe time to reset the doomsday clock, it looks like we might be one minute to midnight.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Politicians make decisions that affect things for years to come. Why do you think that even Turkey wants to join the EU along with half of the former Russian federation. Turkey is in Asia too!!! Its going to be massive, bigger than the US economy. And what with China's economy growing rapidly, the US must realise all its fears have come at once.

You just ignore anything that doesn't fit your scenario...LOL Your wrong, least for the time being and the immediate future. The EU and Euro are NOT capable of runnig the global economy. If everythig switches over to the euro the dollar collapses. The dollar collapses our economy collapses. Our economy collpases the ENTIRE global economy collapses. And IMO the US is the one country most capable of surviving such a collapse. Then the dollar again emerges as te currency of choice globally.

 

[davieravie]

. If everythig switches over to the euro the dollar collapses. The dollar collapses our economy collapses. Our economy collpases the ENTIRE global economy collapses. And IMO the US is the one country most capable of surviving such a collapse. Then the dollar again emerges as te currency of choice globally.

And you predict all that through your crystal ball?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

And you predict all that through your crystal ball?

If it was a prediction I would use my bones and my third eye to predict it. But since it is only a scenario, then I didn't have to use those. It's only a prediction if I think something as absurd as that was actually going to happen. But since the global economy and those running the global market don't want to go belly up, the sudden swap over to Euros and the unimpeded fall of the US economy is highly unlikely. If we go down the rest shall follow, pretty simple concept, like dominos