DO I support racism?[W:433]

[Black Dog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Counterpoints as in to that questions has to do with people not wearing shirts:roll: I'm not going to waste my time finding that gem.

OK I can give you that one. Now however I have pointed out the true nature of the poll, and your flaw about the "disgusting" comment, so do you see my point?

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

OK I can give you that one. Now however I have pointed out the true nature of the poll, and your flaw about the "disgusting" comment, so do you see my point?

Really, do pray tell the "true" nature of the poll.

 

[Black Dog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Really, do pray tell the "true" nature of the poll.

I have already done so.

As for the rest, it makes no sense unless you meant... Do pray tell give the "true" nature of the poll?

Again, I have already done so.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

I have already done so.

As for the rest, it makes no sense unless you meant... Do pray tell give the "true" nature of the poll?

Again, I have already done so.

Assuming you meant, "If someone supports a right that can be used for discrimination against people of color... They are racist. This is absolutely and unequivocally not true" he clearly stated based on race. Store owners already have rules and regulations pertaining to all people like "anyone" who doesn't wear a shirt is not welcome here as opposed to any black person is not welcome here. If people can't tell the difference, that's pretty sad.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

To rational people, it's about rights. To liberals, progressives, and others of diminished capacity, it's about discrimination.

Refusing service based on race IS discrimination. If you feel it's a right, that's on you. Certainly not going to pin that on any party line.

 

[Black Dog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Assuming you meant, "If someone supports a right that can be used for discrimination against people of color... They are racist. This is absolutely and unequivocally not true" he clearly stated based on race. Store owners already have rules and regulations pertaining to all people like "anyone" who doesn't wear a shirt is not welcome here as opposed to any black person is not welcome here. If people can't tell the difference, that's pretty sad.

Well let me give you a bit more detail or better yet an example....

Someone supports the right of association even though they know full well it can be used in a discriminatory fashion in some cases. But they feel rights or this right is more important. The OP would say the person is a racist, hence the poll question.

The problem is, this does not inherently make someone racist. This is why the poll as I see it is deceptive and wrong. It does not explain the situation in full and leaves out key points.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Well let me give you a bit more detail or better yet an example....

Someone supports the right of association even though they know full well it can be used in a discriminatory fashion in some cases. But they feel rights or this right is more important. The OP would say the person is a racist, hence the poll question.

The problem is, this does not inherently make someone racist. This is why the poll as I see it is deceptive and wrong. It does not explain the situation in full and leaves out key points.

Okay, but that is your argument which is fair enough. I was responding to his first question and will stick to my point that it is not a right to treat someone less than human due to skin color. Some people (not you) disagreed with me on that point. They said people have a right to deny services based on whatever they please.

 

[Black Dog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Okay, but that is your argument which is fair enough. I was responding to his first question and will stick to my point that it is not a right to treat someone less than human due to skin color. Some people (not you) disagreed with me on that point. They said people have a right to deny services based on whatever they please.

Like I said libertarians, those kooky Jefferson, trust humans to do the right thing libertarians, lol.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: DO I support racism?

I think you should treat others like you want to be treated.

No one has a right to have other folks be nice to them.

That's what the--what was it called, the 'fringe'?--doesn't quite seem capable of understanding. That liberty allows us to be jerks and assholes as much as it allows us to be pleasant, nice, courteous, helpful etc.

 

[maquiscat]

Re: DO I support racism?

It's not freedom to discriminate. It's freedom to control. Business should not have the authority to restrain base on discrimination.

It's not control. If I controlled them then I could stop them from shopping from anywhere or make them only shop where I wanted them to. The only thing I would control is the one thing that I have always controlled. My property. They are not restrained. They can go anywhere that they want that is also willing to engage in commerce with them. It still comes down to "I don't like that your freedom allows you to do things I don't like therefore I am going to change definitions and make laws to take away your freedom and rights in this area."

"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words"

When oppression means freedom.

So glad to see that you finally understand that your oppression of the business owner is being falsely called freedom

Then let me clarify what I mean by restraint.

re·strain
riˈstrān/
verb
1.
prevent (someone or something) from doing something; keep under control or within limits.

Ah so if you prevent me from doing business with you as the customer, then you are the one restraining.

The business owner is not preventing someone from doing something. They are only preventing that person from doing something with them. It is a very key and important difference. If I won't do business with you, you are still free to go and do business with someone else! How hard of a concept is that?

Um, yes you are if you deny a person service because you don't like the color of their skin. That is called oppression.

So if I deny a person service because I don't like the color of their hair, is that oppression? I notice that hair color discrimination is not illegal. Oppression is where one tries to deny another outside of their own sphere of influence. Saying that you cannot shop my business, for what ever reason, is my property rights and right of association. Saying that you cannot ship other people's businesses even if they want you to is oppression. I get to tell you what you can and cannot do with my property. I don't get to tell you what you and others do with your own properties.

Right, because if I want to buy a bottle of water but can't unless I walk 20 miles to the nearest place that will allow me to do so just because of my skin color, sexual orientation or religion....., that doesn't prevent from undue hardship:roll:

I can then just shut down the business and then you're walking 20 miles anyway. Next point?

It is a product I seek. Business shouldn't have the authority to oppress. That is a thing called tyranny. The power is in businesses hands and people are oppressed just because of something like skin color, sexual orientation, religion.....

Hair color, body odor, clothing choices, hair style, college choice....

That depends upon the reason for not dealing with him. If I decline to take a job because I am too busy, the job is too big/small or outside of my travel distance that is one thing but if I decline the job because of his race, religion or gender then that is another.

So wait! Now it should be illegal to not take a job because of racism? How do you propose to enforce that one?

We went that route when black people were not allowed to go into certain shops, restrooms, drink out of bubblers. It amazes me people can justify this as fine. At any rate, what it led to was a certain group of people being oppressed.

It was also mandated that those oppressions occur. No choice was given to the business owners. As a business owner under Jim Crow laws, I would not be allowed to have integrated facilities. That is also a violation of property rights and freedom of association.

Ah, but I did. You just didn't like it. It is the truth. Blacks were oppressed due to many places of business refusing them service. Nothing right about it.

And yet you avoided the entire rest of the post. So if you own a cake shop should you be required to provide a cake to the Klan, WBC, and an anti-gay rally?

Nice strawman:roll:

You're the one that made the use of the term "disgusting".

I think that sums up pretty well why the libertarian view on this just can't work. People just will not stand for that kind of segregation rights or not. Supporting the libertarian view however does not inherently make anyone racist.

But that whole incident detailed in the time line was very libertarian. They used social pressure to make changes.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

It's not control. If I controlled them then I could stop them from shopping from anywhere or make them only shop where I wanted them to. The only thing I would control is the one thing that I have always controlled. My property. They are not restrained. They can go anywhere that they want that is also willing to engage in commerce with them. It still comes down to "I don't like that your freedom allows you to do things I don't like therefore I am going to change definitions and make laws to take away your freedom and rights in this area."

It is control. A merchant is not a ruler! He is a person who sells goods and services. He has no more of a right to deny people as in private hospitals, physicians, municipalities, transportation, shops, gasoline, etc....based on discrimination. That goes beyond controlling ones property to controlling who gets access to services and/or goods and is a form of tyranny for those who are being limited due to special selection. That is not a Libertarian point of view. It is a dictators point of view.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

There is not point in debating racists - whether they realize that's what it is or not. They will make any rationalization and find any possible way to say its like something else - when its not like something else at all.

 

[maquiscat]

Re: DO I support racism?

It is control. A merchant is not a ruler! He is a person who sells goods and services. He has no more of a right to deny people as in private hospitals, physicians, municipalities, transportation, shops, gasoline, etc....based on discrimination. That goes beyond controlling ones property to controlling who gets access to services and/or goods and is a form of tyranny for those who are being limited due to special selection. That is not a Libertarian point of view. It is a dictators point of view.

Spoken as one. And yes the merchant is a ruler...of his property. Until the sale occurs the property is still his. As the customer is the ruler of his choices and those alone. No more than the merchant can force the customer to shop with him, the customer cannot force the merchant to deal with him. The reasons are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is a matter of race or a matter of clothes choice or of hair style nor on which side it occurs on.

Let's look at it from the other side. Can the customer deny the merchant custom simply because of the merchant's skin color?

 

[maquiscat]

Re: DO I support racism?

There is not point in debating racists - whether they realize that's what it is or not. They will make any rationalization and find any possible way to say its like something else - when its not like something else at all.

Nor I guess is there any point in debating freedom deniers. If they don't like your actions, they will make any rationalization and find any way to take that freedom away.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Spoken as one. And yes the merchant is a ruler...of his property. Until the sale occurs the property is still his. As the customer is the ruler of his choices and those alone. No more than the merchant can force the customer to shop with him, the customer cannot force the merchant to deal with him. The reasons are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is a matter of race or a matter of clothes choice or of hair style nor on which side it occurs on.

Let's look at it from the other side. Can the customer deny the merchant custom simply because of the merchant's skin color?

I disagree. Reason is everything. No merchant should deny a person from being a consumer based on his/her dislike of race. I'd like to believe we've evolved since the enactment of civil rights movement. I think most have.

 

[Black Dog]

Re: DO I support racism?

Nor I guess is there any point in debating freedom deniers. If they don't like your actions, they will make any rationalization and find any way to take that freedom away.

Or demonizer you as racist no matter intent.

 

[maquiscat]

Re: DO I support racism?

I disagree. Reason is everything. No merchant should deny a person from being a consumer based on his/her dislike of race. I'd like to believe we've evolved since the enactment of civil rights movement. I think most have.

If most have then why are you worried about a law for the few who haven't? Their businesses will fail or at least not get far with the large number of people who would not shop them due to their socially evolved enlightenment. There will be plenty of other choices for people to chose from.

You failed to answer the question.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Re: DO I support racism?

If most have then why are you worried about a law for the few who haven't? Their businesses will fail or at least not get far with the large number of people who would not shop them due to their socially evolved enlightenment. There will be plenty of other choices for people to chose from.

You failed to answer the question.

That kind of behavior may not fly in some areas. With that said, there are areas where it would which would harm those being on the receiving area of discrimination.

 

[sangha]

Re: DO I support racism?

It is still property rights, the right to do with your property, real estate or otherwise (i.e. goods and services), as you wish. Since people don't like others to have that freedom they change the rules and claim oh that's actually public not private and it's not even really there so you're not losing anything. Which is utter crap.

If you choose to use your property to run a business as a public accommodation, you can't do whatever you want with it. You have to follow the centuries old laws which apply.

Even if you don't use it as a public accommodation, you can't use your property however you wish. Real estate is regulated by land use and zoning laws, for example.

 

[sangha]

Re: DO I support racism?

Arbitrary...

1. subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: <----an arbitrary decision. Looks usual to me?
2. decided by a judge or arbiter rather than by a law or statute.
3.having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.
4.capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.
5.Mathematics . undetermined; not assigned a specific value: an arbitrary constant.

Have any other excuses?

Nope, no shirt no shoes rules are not contingent solely upon one's discretion.

 

[sangha]

Re: DO I support racism?

An easement is a legal right to use someone else’s land for a particular purpose.

And there you go. You claimed that no one has the right to use your property without your permission. That sentence proves that you're wrong.

 

[sangha]

Upholding people's freedom is not "racist policy,"

refusing to serve black people is a racist policy

 

[sangha]

Re: DO I support racism?

Did I say someone not wearing a shirt? I thought we were talking about people who are despised based on the color of their skin, religion, sexual orientation.....maybe you confused me with someone else or just a poor attempt at a red herring.

AM I the only one who has noticed that the supporters of racism do not want to talk about the actual issue I raised (ie refusing to serve black people) and instead want to talk about free speech, free association, property rights, and now, shirtless customers?

 

[sangha]

Re: DO I support racism?

Your premise is flawed. This thread is about property rights and being racist or not by supporting those laws.

This thread is not "based" on discrimination although it is part of the subject matter.

No the thread isn't about property rights

It's about refusing to serve black people, and if promoting making it legal is promoting racism.

 

[maquiscat]

Re: DO I support racism?

That kind of behavior may not fly in some areas. With that said, there are areas where it would which would harm those being on the receiving area of discrimination.

you failed yet again to answer the question. Allow me to ask it again:

Can the customer deny the merchant custom simply because of the merchant's skin color?