Do humans begin life as a parasite....

[Jerry]

Should you ever want to debate this issue comprehensively and honestly, Let me know...I would enjoy the challenge.

Heh, well, for me it has little to do with "personhood" or anything ells, and allot to do with a simple inherited bias.

In practical application of secular public policy, I would support Jallman's view 200.00136%, and shunt the rest of the PL argument, the part which pertains to early abortion, to a cultural/ethical front to do battle there.

 

[Captain America]

My mama told me I began life as daddy's little squirt. :mrgreen:

 

[tecoyah]

Heh, well, for me it has little to do with "personhood" or anything ells, and allot to do with a simple inherited bias.

In practical application of secular public policy, I would support Jallman's view 200.00136%, and shunt the rest of the PL argument, the part which pertains to early abortion, to a cultural/ethical front to do battle there.

So...in reality we have two completely seperate debates on the one issue. First and formost would be the Ethics involved in stopping a fetus from reaching Fruition, followed closely by the willingness of us all to allow individuals to make descisions that may be counter to our own understanding of the first debate.
Seems like the whole conundrum in a nutshell.

 

[Captain America]

Condom in a nutsack?

 

[jallman]

So...in reality we have two completely seperate debates on the one issue. First and formost would be the Ethics involved in stopping a fetus from reaching Fruition, followed closely by the willingness of us all to allow individuals to make descisions that may be counter to our own understanding of the first debate.
Seems like the whole conundrum in a nutshell.

In truth, the debate is dangerous because of it's simplicity. Such simplicity only lends itself to eternal struggle because there aren't enough parameters to keep the hypotheticals of each side from becoming influential. It really is eternal in its depth, but that is only because the crux of the debate is so simple.

Am I starting to sound like some Cheech and Chong reject? The straight and narrow path only appears to the lost? Fortune cookie philosophy...perhaps I am guilty of it as well. :rofl

 

[dottedmint]

Then, obviously, if it is implanted into a woman as can happen, it isn't an intruder, it is a guest and it is producing reasonable return for its resources as it is clearly providing some emotional and/or genetic support for a species lineage.

Still not a parasite. The pit-bull routine isn't going to get you anywhere. Give it up already.

GOOD GOD man!!!! :crazy3:

First it wasn't a parasite because it is the same species.

Then it wasn't a parasite because it wasn't an "external force"

NOW.....it isn't a parasite because it isn't an "intruder"...it is a "guest".

A leech is a parasite.

When Drs take leeches and place them on patients they are not an "intruder" and they are a "guest" of the patient....BUT THEY ARE STILL A PARASITE.

Just because a parasite is a "guest" does not somehow make it not a parasite...

 

[talloulou]

GOOD GOD man!!!! :crazy3:

First it wasn't a parasite because it is the same species.

Then it wasn't a parasite because it wasn't an "external force"

NOW.....it isn't a parasite because it isn't an "intruder"...it is a "guest".

A leech is a parasite.

When Drs take leeches and place them on patients they are not an "intruder" and they are a "guest" of the patient....BUT THEY ARE STILL A PARASITE.

Just because a parasite is a "guest" does not somehow make it not a parasite...

Yep but when you go to the dr. he/she will refer to your leech as a parasite. Yet when they check pregnant women for parasites they aren't looking for the ZEF!

Also in a normal healthy pregnancy the ZEF is not recognized by the women's body as a parasite? Do you know why that is?

What is your problem? Why won't you let it go?

 

[talloulou]

Medical parasitology traditionally has included the study of three major groups of animals: parasitic protozoa, parasitic helminths (worms), and those arthropods that directly cause disease or act as vectors of various pathogens. A parasite is a pathogen that simultaneously injures and derives sustenance from its host. Some organisms called parasites are actually commensals, in that they neither benefit nor harm their host (for example, Entamoeba coli).

Introduction to Parasitology

And here's a website that discussses the type of parasites that affect humans and groups them by class and description. You'll notice the ZEF isn't listed and no mention is made of pregnancy or reproduction.

There is over a hundred parasites types able to live in the human body

In fact there are thousands upon thousands of articles online from legit sources that discuss parasites and none of them discussed human reproduction! Not one.

If you type in fetus and parasite all you get is a bunch of prochoice propaganda. No legit sources. Referring to the fetus as a parasite has no medical or scientific relevance. It's just an insult and nothing more.

 

[1069]

I think what the reasonable people on both sides of the issue have decided is that it's unreasonable to publicly refer to a fetus as "parasitic", whether or not it is.
The term itself is unnecessarily incendiary.
It may be hurtful and insulting to those with wanted pregnancies, who love their unborn fetuses and ascribe human characteristics to them.

The pragmatic realist in me objects to others repeatedly insisting- erroneously- that there is some return, some symbiosis, between the pregnant woman and her fetus, when I know there is not, and when I know- first hand- the numerous temporary and permanent ways that a fetus negatively effects the health and body of its host.

I do not, however, feel compelled to point this unpleasant fact of life out very often, since it can't be helped and apparently makes many people feel bad.
It's probably better if we all just agree not to discuss the biological nature of the relationship between a fetus and a pregnant woman, unless it's really, really relevant and necessary to do so.

 

[jallman]

What is your problem? Why won't you let it go?

And this is the reason I am about to name dottedmint to be the single most beneficial voice for the pro-choice camp for the week. She has no vested interest in proving the ZEF to be a parasite...yet she continues on some vendetta to prove a pro-choicer wrong. If it is that important, then let her...the fact of the matter is that when she succeeds in exhausting my patience, I will permit her to "win" in her assertion that the ZEF is a parasite.

In doing so, I will achieve ultimate justification for the irrelevant women's enslavement argument...no organism has an enumerated right to invade and rob another organism of its resources.

I am getting dangerously close to just taking the path of least resistance and calling the debate closed on the grounds that a pro-lifer confessed to the parasitic quality of the ZEF.

You should probably reign this in before you suffer a significant loss of ground. :mrgreen:

As I asserted, my camp is united in accepting that the parasite comparison is nothing more than a dishonest and incendiary slight to pro-lifers. I cannot long justify this enforced and requested position if one of your own is not being equally gracious.

By Monday, you will either have her under control or I will signal the all-out opportunistic attack that will seal the fate of PL on this board for months to come.

Happy Easter, by the way. :mrgreen:

 

[1069]

Are you sure DottedMint's a "she"?
I could've sworn he/she was a guy.
I though he/she said so, at one point.

 

[jallman]

Are you sure DottedMint's a "she"?
I could've sworn he/she was a guy.
I though he/she said so, at one point.

Makes no difference in the end. The human condition is not delegated to any one gender to protect. Dottedmint struck me as female, but if I am wrong, I apologize on that point alone. My assertions about social responsibility still need to be answered.

 

[talloulou]

By Monday, you will either have her under control or I will signal the all-out opportunistic attack that will seal the fate of PL on this board for months to come.

Happy Easter, by the way. :mrgreen:

:rofl I highly doubt you could use dottedmint's flaws to seal the fate of PL for months to come! I'd like to see you try! :lol: Plus my period will be arriving in a few days so I can easily get quite vicious myself.


And Happy Easter to you too!

 

[1069]

:rofl I highly doubt you could use dottedmint's flaws to seal the fate of PL for months to come! I'd like to see you try! :lol: Plus my period will be arriving in a few days so I can easily get quite vicious myself.


And Happy Easter to you too!

Christ on stilts, tallou! Do you have five periods a month?
It seems every time I turn around you're advertising the impending arrival of "The Scarlet Tide".
If anything, it seems to make you a less effective debater, so I'd keep it under wraps, if I were you.

I'd challenge anyone to try and figure out when I'm on the rag; I'm proud of the fact that my intellect overrides my hormones, not vice versa.
Mind over matter is key. Otherwise, how can we expect men to trust us to policy-making positions or any other position of responsibility and authority?

* edit* - Example: Would you trust male leaders who constantly complained that they couldn't attend early-morning meetings of Congress because they had morning hard-ons, and would be distractable and irate if they had to do any serious thinking before they had time for their early morning wank?

I mean, come on.

Your body is merely a house for your brain. Your brain should rule over it, subjugate it; not vice versa.

 

[jallman]

:rofl I highly doubt you could use dottedmint's flaws to seal the fate of PL for months to come! I'd like to see you try! :lol: Plus my period will be arriving in a few days so I can easily get quite vicious myself.


And Happy Easter to you too!

Your impending period is really of no consequence to me if it means I am going to suffer my beliefs by indulging your irrational need for chocolate. I simply offered you an olive branch which you seem to be declining. The profferation of said token of peace was out of a respect for you, but it seems you are going to make it political rather than owning up to a responsibility to equivalently reign your own people in to the same standard you have demanded of me.

I will not, however, take this as an end to any truce. I am going to patiently wait for you to truly breach this particular diplomatic accord. When you do, irrevocably and probably shamelessly, I will seize on the opportunity to lay your representative actions at the feet of ALL pro-lifers, both present and future. Here is the catch: I am easy to make peace with, but I am also ruthless when that trust is breached. I am in a position, backed by a united front and an air tight logic, to make demands. Demands I was not previously inclined to make, but you are backing out on a personal agreement and, further, calling me impotent to enforce my expectations.

As a married woman, you should know that implying impotence of any type is an affront to the sensibilities of the male in question. You will rue the day that you let your emotions override your sanity and question my effectiveness in promoting my point.

I am sorry that the blame falls on you, but you truly are the one who spoke out of turn...and with absolutely no philosophical, legal, or scientific backing. I truly believed you to be one to watch your steps more closely. However, your lapse in judgment has become my camp's opportunity.

No hard feelings in the future, ok?

 

[talloulou]

Christ on stilts, tallou! Do you have five periods a month?

No but I am pretty regular about every 29 days. :2razz:

It seems every time I turn around you're advertising the impending arrival of "The Scarlet Tide".

I can see how that might be a flaw. But to be fair I never claimed to be flawless!

If anything, it seems to make you a less effective debater, so I'd keep it under wraps, if I were you.

Well I do get irritable about a week prior. Its a fact of life I've learned to live with it. I don't think I lose any brain function so much as I loose patience and am less likely to overlook stuff that normally I can ignore.

I'd challenge anyone to try and figure out when I'm on the rag; I'm proud of the fact that my intellect overrides my hormones, not vice versa.
Mind over matter is key. Otherwise, how can we expect men to trust us to policy-making positions or any other position of responsibility and authority?

Well if I wanted to hide my period from those outside my house I probably could but it would take work on my part. As far as men trusting us I once heard a joke about how you shouldn't trust anything that bleeds for a week but refuses to die! :mrgreen: But again like I said I don't think my decision making skills disappear whilst PMSing. I'm just not as sweet as usual. Doesn't mean I'm apt to make stupid choices just means I may be more judgemental and quick to point out the decisions of others that seem stupid to me. And I will probably be less kind in donig so.

My husband without fail leaves the butter out on the counter and then the dog eats it! So normally I tolerate his inability to put the butter away and I just follow behind him doing it for him. When PMSing I'll yell at him. No one can be a saint all the time.

* edit* - Example: Would you trust male leaders who constantly complained that they couldn't attend early-morning meetings of Congress because they had morning hard-ons, and would be distractable and irate if they had to do any serious thinking before they had time for their early morning wank?

I've never complained that I can't do something because I'm on the rag.

Your body is merely a house for your brain. Your brain should rule over it, subjugate it; not vice versa.

Hmmm well in that case women should just use their brain to avoid pregnancy rather than waiting for it to happen and then needing surgery to deal. :2wave:

 

[talloulou]

Your impending period is really of no consequence to me if it means I am going to suffer my beliefs by indulging your irrational need for chocolate. I simply offered you an olive branch which you seem to be declining. The profferation of said token of peace was out of a respect for you, but it seems you are going to make it political rather than owning up to a responsibility to equivalently reign your own people in to the same standard you have demanded of me.

I will not, however, take this as an end to any truce. I am going to patiently wait for you to truly breach this particular diplomatic accord. When you do, irrevocably and probably shamelessly, I will seize on the opportunity to lay your representative actions at the feet of ALL pro-lifers, both present and future. Here is the catch: I am easy to make peace with, but I am also ruthless when that trust is breached. I am in a position, backed by a united front and an air tight logic, to make demands. Demands I was not previously inclined to make, but you are backing out on a personal agreement and, further, calling me impotent to enforce my expectations.

As a married woman, you should know that implying impotence of any type is an affront to the sensibilities of the male in question. You will rue the day that you let your emotions override your sanity and question my effectiveness in promoting my point.

I am sorry that the blame falls on you, but you truly are the one who spoke out of turn...and with absolutely no philosophical, legal, or scientific backing. I truly believed you to be one to watch your steps more closely. However, your lapse in judgment has become my camp's opportunity.

No hard feelings in the future, ok?

Good lord what in God's name are your rambling on about? I'm perfectly happy to point out to Dottedmint over and over again the flaws of his/her assertions but I don't control that poster and can't really make that poster cease and desist within a time frame of your choosing. Perhaps prolifers aren't as "sheeple" like as prochoicers? I don't know. I don't reign supreme over the group here. Lucky you that you're apparently king of your kind. :rofl

Furthermore you've more recently compared the ZEF to $hit which is even more offensive than parasite! :shock:

And yes I find the assertion that you could "seal the fate of PL for months to come" laughable! :rofl

So what you gonna do about it?

 

[jallman]

Good lord what in God's name are your rambling on about? I'm perfectly happy to point out to Dottedmint over and over again the flaws of his/her assertions but I don't control that poster and can't really make that poster cease and desist within a time frame of your choosing. Perhaps prolifers aren't as "sheeple" like as prochoicers? I don't know. I don't reign supreme over the group here. Lucky you that you're apparently king of your kind. :rofl

Furthermore you've more recently compared the ZEF to $hit which is even more offensive than parasite! :shock:

And yes I find the assertion that you could "seal the fate of PL for months to come" laughable! :rofl

So what you gonna do about it?

I am going to feel no need to enforce an adherence to a restriction you have been vocal in demanding. Talloullou, I love ya dearly, but I expect to be met half way. I don't expect you to control dottedmint any more than I "control" my camp. I do think it is telling that we stand united and in good faith on an issue that is nothing more than a concession to YOUR sensibilities.

I won't be inclined to spend my loyalty and favor asking for such concessions if I am met with a half hearted effort from my, until now, diplomatic adversary.

I am offering you a boon when I give you insight into the damage dottedmint is doing to your own cause. Granted, I do the same when doughgirl starts spouting nonsense, but that is because I have a personal vendetta against her sanctimonious rants. I have no such obligation to defend you against dottedmint. I was sincerely hoping you would make every possible effort of bringing her to the same level of intellectual honesty we have come to expect of each other.

If you have no intention or no capability of reasoning with him/her, then do you give me leave to grind her/him under the heel of truth and be done with it?

 

[talloulou]

I am going to feel no need to enforce an adherence to a restriction you have been vocal in demanding. Talloullou, I love ya dearly, but I expect to be met half way. I don't expect you to control dottedmint any more than I "control" my camp. I do think it is telling that we stand united and in good faith on an issue that is nothing more than a concession to YOUR sensibilities.

I won't be inclined to spend my loyalty and favor asking for such concessions if I am met with a half hearted effort from my, until now, diplomatic adversary.

I am offering you a boon when I give you insight into the damage dottedmint is doing to your own cause. Granted, I do the same when doughgirl starts spouting nonsense, but that is because I have a personal vendetta against her sanctimonious rants. I have no such obligation to defend you against dottedmint. I was sincerely hoping you would make every possible effort of bringing her to the same level of intellectual honesty we have come to expect of each other.

If you have no intention or no capability of reasoning with him/her, then do you give me leave to grind her/him under the heel of truth and be done with it?

I genuinely do not believe the ZEF is a parasite. If you genuinely believe that the truth is that a ZEF is a parasite and you are merely acquiescing me by making statements to the contrary then I don't get it? Why would you do that? Our online friendship has never required forsaking our own views to appease one another. You don't need to concede to my sensibilities. Sure it's nice but it's completely unnecessary. Frankly the assertion that the ZEF is a parasite does more to hurt the prochoice side since, normally, it is hardcore prochoicers asserting it and it quickly turns off more moderate folk.

The fact that dottedmint is a prolifer hell bent on calling the ZEF a parasite is very odd. I don't know what kind of point she/he is trying to make. But if you agree with him/her and are merely conceding the point to me out of kindness please by all means discontinue doing so. I'd rather have you hold sincere beliefs that opposed mine than vocalize insincere beliefs out of friendship.

Dottemint is being intellectually dishonest when calling the ZEF a parasite only because the ZEF really is not a parasite. And frankly if Grannie and 1069 begrudgingly have agreed to stop using the term it's meaningless if deep down they believe the ZEF is a parasite. 1069 basically says I'll stop saying it cause it's mean you know because the truth hurts. :roll: So both grannie and 1069 agree with dottedmint and I know they agree with dottemint. I know deep down they both view the ZEF as a parasite. So really what is it you've gotten them to agree to? And what's the point of that agreement? And if you yourself believe the ZEF is a parasite too and you are just claiming it's not to appease my senses then how is that intellectually honest?

 

[dottedmint]

I don't think there are any mammals that are classified as parasites, are there?

As Homer Simpson would say.....

Doh.... :doh

When you first posted this I didn't think much of it.

I could think of parasitic fish, birds, insects, and countless smaller organisms.

But I agree I couldn't think of a parasitic mammal.

Today I was driving down the road and thinking, 'yep...she's right....no parasitic mammals'

Then.....:idea:

It just hit me.....

A Vampire Bat is a parasitic mammal.....

And if I'm not mistaken probably the only parasitic mammal......

I know...I know...

It doesn't really change the discussion but I felt I would share that with you.

 

[jallman]

I genuinely do not believe the ZEF is a parasite. If you genuinely believe that the truth is that a ZEF is a parasite and you are merely acquiescing me by making statements to the contrary then I don't get it? Why would you do that? Our online friendship has never required forsaking our own views to appease one another. You don't need to concede to my sensibilities. Sure it's nice but it's completely unnecessary. Frankly the assertion that the ZEF is a parasite does more to hurt the prochoice side since, normally, it is hardcore prochoicers asserting it and it quickly turns off more moderate folk.

The fact that dottedmint is a prolifer hell bent on calling the ZEF a parasite is very odd. I don't know what kind of point she/he is trying to make. But if you agree with him/her and are merely conceding the point to me out of kindness please by all means discontinue doing so. I'd rather have you hold sincere beliefs that opposed mine than vocalize insincere beliefs out of friendship.

Dottemint is being intellectually dishonest when calling the ZEF a parasite only because the ZEF really is not a parasite. And frankly if Grannie and 1069 begrudgingly have agreed to stop using the term it's meaningless if deep down they believe the ZEF is a parasite. 1069 basically says I'll stop saying it cause it's mean you know because the truth hurts. :roll: So both grannie and 1069 agree with dottedmint and I know they agree with dottemint. I know deep down they both view the ZEF as a parasite. So really what is it you've gotten them to agree to? And what's the point of that agreement? And if you yourself believe the ZEF is a parasite too and you are just claiming it's not to appease my senses then how is that intellectually honest?

I hold no sincere conviction that the ZEF is a parasite. That is why it is so easy for me to let go of the notion that it could be. Besides, confession of the parasitism of the ZEF blows a hole in the Pro choice argument so wide you could drive a mac truck through it. I will confess that concession of this point offers a two pronged answer of making amends with one I consider a respected friend (you) AND denying one of your supporters her ill conceived victory.

 

[talloulou]

As Homer Simpson would say.....

Doh.... :doh

When you first posted this I didn't think much of it.

I could think of parasitic fish, birds, insects, and countless smaller organisms.

But I agree I couldn't think of a parasitic mammal.

Today I was driving down the road and thinking, 'yep...she's right....no parasitic mammals'

Then.....:idea:

It just hit me.....

A Vampire Bat is a parasitic mammal.....

And if I'm not mistaken probably the only parasitic mammal......

I know...I know...

It doesn't really change the discussion but I felt I would share that with you.

Well thanks. And if you agree that it is the only parasitic mammal then that does greatly change the discussion as apparently we're all in agreement now! :2razz: And we made the Monday deadline to boot! There you go jallman!

 

[Jerry]

Well thanks. And if you agree that it is the only parasitic mammal then that does greatly change the discussion as apparently we're all in agreement now! :2razz: And we made the Monday deadline to boot! There you go jallman!

Double "Doh".

Even if there are many parricide mammals, if homosapien is not one of them then "parasite" does not apply in the abortion discussion.

 

[dottedmint]

Well thanks. And if you agree that it is the only parasitic mammal then that does greatly change the discussion as apparently we're all in agreement now! :2razz: And we made the Monday deadline to boot! There you go jallman!

Happy to help.....

And I guess I should have made this a bit more clear in my first posting on the whole "parasite" debate.....

I don't know of any biologist calling humans parasites......
That was never the point I was trying to make.

And my statement isn't that humans as a whole species are parasites.

I am more looking specifically at the ZEF and the type of existence that it leads.

It is a living organism that lives in and gets its 'food' from another organism.

That is what a parasite does....

I know you and I disagree on this but I don't see using the term parasite as something that lowers the value of the ZEF.

Would you find it as offensive to say a ZEF lives a parasitic existence?

 

[1069]

Look, anything that subsists by leeching resources from something else and returns nothing but waste products is- by nature- parasitic.
That a fetus may someday grow up to be a productive, contributing member of the human race is irrelevant; many organisms are parasitic for a period of time, during one phase of their life cycle (larvae, etc) and then in another phase of their life cycle, aren't. Many organisms are initially parasitic, and later become autonomous.

The fact is that I've never heard either a prolife or a prochoice argument that hinges entirely- or even largely- on whether or not a fetus is biologically parasitic.
We all know, deep in our hearts, what a fetus does to the body it occupies.
We might all process that information differently.
Some might perceive it as a beautiful and miraculous sacrifice (overlooking the fact that a fetus, if not removed, will continue to cannibalize the body of its host regardless of whether she is willing to allow it to).
Some may see it as a wretched violation.
Some may be broad-minded enough to see that it could be either, or both, or one of many shades of gray in between.
But we all know, you know... what it is.
We're not stupid, here. Most of us are parents. We know.

But like I said, does anyone's whole argument really depend on it, on this word "parasite"?
Is there anyone who absolutely can't make their argument or state their position without using the term "parasite" or "parasitic"?
Because it seems like we were going along pretty well there without it, until the past couple of days, when suddenly it's all we talk about on every thread.
Who cares whether fetuses are scientifically classifiable as "parasites", or whether they are merely biologically parasitic in nature, or whether they are pweshuss wittle fuzzy-wuzzie cabbage patch dolls who infuse their mommies with nine essential vitamins and minerals and make her coat shine?
Is it really worth derailing every flipping thread in the abortion forum over?
I don't CARE about it. Ask Vauge to ban the word "parasite" from the forum, for all I care. I rarely use it, and can make my argument perfectly well without it. I just think we've wasted enough time going in circles with it.
That is all.