drz-400
DP Veteran
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God works in mysterious ways is the just a huge cop out, a cheap way of attempting to create an excuse of why things are the way they are.
I'm still curious as to why he needs us to believe in him, isn't living a life in which you treat others well with respect good enough to go to Heaven? I picture the whole God situation being like Monsters Inc.
He needs belief to fuel the massive consumption of electricity in Heaven!!
I'm still curious as to why he needs us to believe in him, isn't living a life in which you treat others well with respect good enough to go to Heaven? I picture the whole God situation being like Monsters Inc.
He needs belief to fuel the massive consumption of electricity in Heaven!!
*taking PBrauer's Man Card*
*YOINK!*
Goes doesn't need anyone to believe in Him. In fact, belief isn't really what he desires. The Bible says even the demons believe in God yet tremble. People are sent to hell not because our bad outweighs the good, but because they have sin and sin separates one from God and merits judgement. What is "good" but a personally objective term? Why should God honor what we hold to be "good?" Why should we be able to judge ourselves when we are not the law maker? We can't forgive our own sins or atone for them. God desires for people to repent so that they may receive mercy and forgiveness of sins because God as the judge has already taken the punishment (death on the cross). God doesn't need people to believe in Him like some emotionally starved teenager.
Maybe what you consider Gods failures are actually a part of the overall plan for man and the Universe.
A perfect being could chose to make something that was imperfect so long as it's reasons for doing so was perfect.
How? How can something limited to creating perfection by its own constrictions create imperfection? A perfect will is by definition perfect, therefore without flaws. How can it will something it cannot do?
So God wills evil? That more or less refutes the notion that God is perfect.
Go beyond that.....
Part 2
Heaven is union with God. Hell is separation from God. Since the soul is immortal, that is forever. It is not ruled by the Devil/Satan. He gets to go there too. The references to fire are to give you something you can tangibly understand.
Our bodies are mortal and die. Salvation does not keep you from physical death, it saves you from spiritual death, i.e. separation from God, i.e. Hell.
Everyone disobeys God, creating imperfection, meaning you can't get into Heaven. So God sends Jesus, who lives a perfect life, never sinning. Yet he is put to death and "goes to hell", in other words, being punished for something he didn't do. He rises from the dead and then goes to Heaven.
None of us can get into heaven on our own. But, if you acknowledge that Jesus paid your price, and you acknowledge him as boss, then the slate is clean. Yes, you deserve the punishment, but he took it for you.
Very simple.
The issue needs to be looked at from multiple levels. While individual peices may not be individually "perfect" the lack of indiviodual perfection could be, in theory, a factor in creating a perfect system where the imperfect peices work together creating a perfect, synergistic whole.
For example, using an admittedly weak analogy
In truth, the logical debate here really does depend on the goals of the perfect being designing the system. If the gols are something where perfect parts are a detriment ot the system, then the system itself woulfd be imperfect if all of the parts were perfect. But if the perfect system requires imperfect parts, then the perfect action would be to design those parts with imperfections.
Your limitation of saying that a perfect being cannot create imperfection is a false one. The actual limitation that would exist is the following:
A perfect being cannot create imperfection unless it is done willfully by that being to achieve it's goals.
In essense, a perfect being could not accidentally create imperfection, but it could create imperfection on purpose.
Go beyond that.....
Part 2
Heaven is union with God. Hell is separation from God.
Everyone disobeys God, creating imperfection
Very simple.
Simple, yes. Accurate, no. You are reading a book that has no basis on fact. But it does has logical efforts on how society should live. BUUUUUT it also has foolish rules. It also has contradictions up the ying-yang.
The Bible is a great instruction manual for life IF you scrape all the BS and illogical crap and contradictions out of it. The Bible is relevant NOW because people havent changed. Love, hate, greed, lust, power...... only the technology has changed. That is the MEAT. The fat is everything else. I used to be a Born Again Christian but Ive seen how goofy the Bible really is outside of the common sense life-instructions. My atheist friend lives closer to the Bible than my pastor does.
Im not going to buy the book but can you imbibe his book into the conversation? I would be very interested.Just for ****s and giggles, you ought to read "Evidence that demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowel. It isn't going to convince you of anything, but you'll probably still find it interesting reading.
It looks at the proof from a different angle than you normally do. You look at everything from a scientific standpoint, i.e. can you reproduce it experimentally, do you have something hard and substantial in front of you.
McDowell approaches it more from a lawyerly approach. Present the evidence and judge it.
Well that pretty much renders our definition of perfection shot. And therefore the rest of the discussion. I do believe I stated this in the my original post. Still, your argument runs into the problem of a perfect being as the creator. If the perfection being was in fact the creator, then its will would be perfect as well. A perfect will is without flaws. Creating flawed creations is in itself as a flaw as such a will would need the ideas of imperfection to start with, thereby rendering itself imperfect. Granted, this runs head first into a brick wall of omnipotence, but that's another thread.
But the analogy doesn't address the fundamental nature of that perfect will. A perfect will by definition would be free of all flaws. How can something which is free of flaws have ideas of flaws and actively create flaws when itself is completely free of such flaws in any way, shape or form? True, the cooperation of otherwise imperfect devices may produce a perfect outcome, but that does not address the very origin of their creation. It merely addresses their functional nature. The company is capable of producing both imperfect and perfect devices. A perfect being as a creator would not.
Not if we are using the definition of perfect. A perfect being would be free of flaws. That includes its will. It's will is little more then enacting the ideas and desires of such a being. If that being was indeed perfect, it could not have flawed desires or ideas as it would be perfect in all aspects. Therefore, it could not create an imperfect creation as it would not possess the flawed idea in the first place. Again, this is diametrically opposed to an all powerful God. A perfect being would not be able to possess the flawed ideas that would if created, act to create perfection.
Possessing only perfect ideas would eliminate the accidental creation of imperfection.
Furthermore, as a perfect being would possess no flawed ideas in which to act upon, it could not create imperfection on purpose either.
While it is possible another being not perfect and out of the jurisdiction of the perfect being could act upon such creations and thereby strip them of their perfection, that has at the moment, not been added to the discussion.
But this whole notion relies upon God being logical and sensical. And that is a mighty large assumption.
Logically, it does not compute that a perfect God created this universe. But that is predicated on the notion that God is perfect.
Assuming that God is perfect in all aspects, God's will is therefore perfect. A perfect will is incapable of creating imperfection. Imperfection is defined as with flaws. A perfect will would be without flaws. While this creates restrictions on God that create more logical problems with Omnipotence, that's another discussion. To blame modern imperfect upon Satan is a poor argument as God created everything in the Universe (allegedly). Everything includes Satan. Therefore God, if perfect, would have created a perfect Angel who without imperfection could not have rebelled. Furthermore, by creating a perfect universe, there would be no outside imperfect stimuli to cause a change in a perfect Angel. Therefore, the capacity of perfect beings to change to imperfect would be impossible. Suffice to say, the Abrahamic God does not logically appear to be a perfect being. Or at least sensical.
If our definition if perfection is flawed, then how can we even have this discussion? The base term is undefinable and therefore there is no meaningful path of discussion here.
But the analogy doesn't address the fundamental nature of that perfect will. A perfect will by definition would be free of all flaws. How can something which is free of flaws have ideas of flaws and actively create flaws when itself is completely free of such flaws in any way, shape or form? True, the cooperation of otherwise imperfect devices may produce a perfect outcome, but that does not address the very origin of their creation. It merely addresses their functional nature. The company is capable of producing both imperfect and perfect devices. A perfect being as a creator would not.
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