• Please keep all posts on the Rittenhouse verdict here: Rittenhouse Verdict. Note the moderator warnings in the thread. The thread will be heavily moderated with a zero tolerance policy for any baiting, flaming, trolling or other rule breaks. Stick to the topic and not the other posters. Thank you.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Did God Create Perfection?

Did God create perfection?


  • Total voters
    32

The Giant Noodle

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
7,332
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Northern Illinois
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It is said only a perfect being could create perfection. In what YOU see in people, in life on Earth, in Earth, in the Solar System... the Universe. Did God create perfection? :unsure13:
 

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
19,883
Reaction score
5,120
Location
0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Logically, it does not compute that a perfect God created this universe. But that is predicated on the notion that God is perfect.

Assuming that God is perfect in all aspects, God's will is therefore perfect. A perfect will is incapable of creating imperfection. Imperfection is defined as with flaws. A perfect will would be without flaws. While this creates restrictions on God that create more logical problems with Omnipotence, that's another discussion. To blame modern imperfect upon Satan is a poor argument as God created everything in the Universe (allegedly). Everything includes Satan. Therefore God, if perfect, would have created a perfect Angel who without imperfection could not have rebelled. Furthermore, by creating a perfect universe, there would be no outside imperfect stimuli to cause a change in a perfect Angel. Therefore, the capacity of perfect beings to change to imperfect would be impossible. Suffice to say, the Abrahamic God does not logically appear to be a perfect being. Or at least sensical.

If our definition if perfection is flawed, then how can we even have this discussion? The base term is undefinable and therefore there is no meaningful path of discussion here.
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,237
Reaction score
14,252
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I believe God created perfect, but with perfection came free will. And thus a perfect creation chose to become imperfect via free will.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,168
Reaction score
21,581
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
It is said only a perfect being could create perfection. In what YOU see in people, in life on Earth, in Earth, in the Solar System... the Universe. Did God create perfection? :unsure13:

Have you seen me? I am perfect. :mrgreen:
 

MKULTRABOY

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Perfection is subjective unless you are describing something which fulfills some quality perfectly. I would find it could only exist in a sense of two and two making four perfectly or something like that. I find nothing perfect about this planet.
 

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
19,883
Reaction score
5,120
Location
0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
I believe God created perfect, but with perfection came free will. And thus a perfect creation chose to become imperfect via free will.

But that logically does not compute. Free will includes the capacity to act in imperfect fashions, thereby rendering it imperfect. A perfect will could not grant such capacity as Free Will would be an imperfect trait and thus outside of its capacity. This all relies upon God being perfect which is a rather large assumption.
 

MKULTRABOY

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
10,621
Reaction score
2,104
Location
In your dreams...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Anyone else think god is a description for a greater invisible cosmic rule that has a hand in all our lives and really isn a giant bearded jew man flying in the sky?
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,168
Reaction score
21,581
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
Anyone else think god is a description for a greater invisible cosmic rule that has a hand in all our lives and really isn a giant bearded jew man flying in the sky?

Nope, I like the giant bearded jew man.
 

Councilman

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
4,454
Reaction score
1,655
Location
Riverside, County, CA.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
heavenly_light.jpg


God's creation of the first man and woman was perfection, however some believe that in giving them feel will the Lord made a mistake,

In a way i agree with that assessment but man's having free will is what makes all things creative possible, such as art, music, scientific exploration, and global exploration and so much more.

When a child is born it is God eyes perfect and as the child grows it quickly comes to choices they must make and those choices are formed based on the influence in which they are raised and the exposure of the attitudes of the parents.


There comes a time as Christians when we have to make a choice to either accept the word of God and give you life to Jesus and in doing so we ask for forgiveness for our sins because we are not perfect and no mortal man is.

Jesus was perfection and continued that perfection until he was on the Cross where the Bible tells us in : Matthew 27:46 Jesus said: My God, my God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me

He was in terrible pain and for a minute was lost in it forgetting his purpose for being her i the first place.

As mortal humans we can only strive to be the best people we can be.

I would add that one needn't be religious to follow the teachings of Jesus as written in the New Testament and the reason is there are words to live by and to try to fallow those teachings we would all be better people and better to each other.

One last thing: At least 21 Religions around the world have at their core precepts is some version of the golden rule which says; Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

If we all followed that one simple idea the world would be a much better place and we could spend an endless amount of money doing things for which we could be proud in all areas of endeavor.

One of the greatest movie scenes ever made;

 

BCR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
598
Reaction score
178
Location
Heart of Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I believe God created perfect, but with perfection came free will. And thus a perfect creation chose to become imperfect via free will.

Clearly if a God created the universe he isn't a perfect being or thing, and I wouldn't expect him/her or it to be. All the failed solar systems, collapsing stars, black holes and that's just one a universal level. Look on a Earth level and we have Weather phenomona, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Diseases such as cancer and AIDS, mental disorders millons starving to death every year.

I really find it absolutely ridiculous to think a loving and caring God exists.
 

Cephus

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2007
Messages
31,034
Reaction score
11,932
Location
CA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
No such thing as God, therefore the question is irrelevant.
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,423
Reaction score
5,012
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I don't believe that there is a god that created everything.

And if there was, it only takes a quick look around to ascertain that the world certainly isn't perfect.
 

earthworm

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
5,728
Reaction score
904
Location
Goldsboro,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I am not convinced that there is a "god" in the first place; and if there is, obviously "perfection" does not exist...Its simply not possible..Close? yes, but people will disagree.
 

Councilman

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Messages
4,454
Reaction score
1,655
Location
Riverside, County, CA.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Clearly if a God created the universe he isn't a perfect being or thing, and I wouldn't expect him/her or it to be. All the failed solar systems, collapsing stars, black holes and that's just one a universal level. Look on a Earth level and we have Weather phenomona, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, Diseases such as cancer and AIDS, mental disorders millons starving to death every year.

I really find it absolutely ridiculous to think a loving and caring God exists.

Maybe what you consider Gods failures are actually a part of the overall plan for man and the Universe.

Remember, God works in mysterious ways.

There are scientists who claim they discovered what ever through education and hard work and determination and God had nothing to do with it, and now we believe we found life on Mars and the Bible says nothing about the creation of life elsewhere in the cosmos.

They forget or just choose to ignore the Following: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth."

Now I believe that covers everything and anything anywhere. Since we have no clue what all or whom might be out there we can assume that They have a Bible of some sort that may be written almost the same only it might say: "In the beginning God created the Heavens and planet y." which would therefore include us.

Perfection is all in ones perception and perspective just as most questions pertaining to man and our existence here on this big blue marble.
 

winston53660

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
29,262
Reaction score
10,125
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I believe God created perfect, but with perfection came free will. And thus a perfect creation chose to become imperfect via free will.

Whoa that made me dizzy:mrgreen:
 

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
45,596
Reaction score
22,536
Location
Everywhere and nowhere
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
A perfect being could chose to make something that was imperfect so long as it's reasons for doing so was perfect.
 

BCR

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
598
Reaction score
178
Location
Heart of Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
God works in mysterious ways is the just a huge cop out, a cheap way of attempting to create an excuse of why things are the way they are.
 

The Giant Noodle

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
7,332
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Northern Illinois
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There comes a time as Christians when we have to make a choice to either accept the word of God and give you life to Jesus and in doing so we ask for forgiveness for our sins because we are not perfect and no mortal man is.

So we are imperfect. If we sin against him we are not perfect. He created us as imperfect. Therefore he should EXPECT that we "sin". Since he knows we will sin, because He created us that way, why should I feel guilty because of it? He MADE me this way. :roll:
 

TheGirlNextDoor


DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
20,027
Reaction score
7,646
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Perfection is subjective; so what is the method of measure for perfection?

What if there is no 'god' - then who or what is responsible for the perceived measure of perfection?
 

The Giant Noodle

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
7,332
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Northern Illinois
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Perfection is subjective; so what is the method of measure for perfection?

What if there is no 'god' - then who or what is responsible for the perceived measure of perfection?

Its up to either up to the individual or the general consensus of society I would imagine. But it seems we are to busy killing each other based on who and how we worship as opposed to what is perfect.
 
Top Bottom