Der Spiegel Charges New Evidence Points to Hezbollah in Hariri Murder

[donsutherland1]

From Der Spiegel:

The United Nations special tribunal investigating the murder of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik al-Hariri has reached surprising new conclusions -- and it is keeping them secret. According to information obtained by SPIEGEL, investigators now believe Hezbollah was behind the Hariri murder...

But now there are signs that the investigation has yielded new and explosive results. SPIEGEL has learned from sources close to the tribunal and verified by examining internal documents, that the Hariri case is about to take a sensational turn. Intensive investigations in Lebanon are all pointing to a new conclusion: that it was not the Syrians, but instead special forces of the Lebanese Shiite organization Hezbollah ("Party of God") that planned and executed the diabolical attack. Tribunal chief prosecutor Bellemare and his judges apparently want to hold back this information, of which they been aware for about a month.

Breakthrough in Tribunal Investigation: New Evidence Points to Hezbollah in Hariri Murder - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

I reserve judgment on this story until further information is available. However, the possibility that Hezbollah, a Syrian and Iranian proxy, would assassinate one of Lebanon's leading political figures at a time when Hariri may have been planning to reenter politics is not implausible. Hariri had the popularity and the ability to alter Lebanon's political landscape. His political re-emergence would have undercut Syria's influence and the interests of the Hezbollah terrorist organization.

In my opinion, if there is credible evidence, it should be released as soon as possible. Transparency is critically important, not just to bring those responsible to justice, but also to reveal to Lebanon's people just who had used violence to advance their own narrow interests at the expense of Lebanon's wellbeing.

 

[bhkad]

I'd always suspected Hezbollah of his murder.

 

[Tashah]

Why is the UN procrastinating with the investigative results? Isn't there an election scheduled in Lebanon shortly? Shouldn't the Lebanese people know who murdered Hariri before any votes are cast?

 

[Vader]

I'd always suspected Hezbollah of his murder.

As did I. Their owners are the only ones with a real motive to eliminate Hariri.

My guess is that they thought Hariri was going to back a pro-western government and that their influence would be reduced or eliminated.

If it can be proven they are even slightly responsible, ALL OF HEZBALLAH must be expelled from Lebanon.

 

[Vader]

Why is the UN procrastinating with the investigative results? Isn't there an election scheduled in Lebanon shortly? Shouldn't the Lebanese people know who murdered Hariri before any votes are cast?

Typical U.N. stupidity.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

I reserve judgment on this story until further information is available.

As will I.

 

[Tashah]

Hezbollah denies link to Hariri murder
updated 12:30 p.m. EDT, Sun May 24, 2009

(CNN) -- The militia group Hezbollah has dismissed a German magazine report that it was behind the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, calling the accusations "fabrications." The report in Germany's Der Spiegel is intended to "influence" the outcome of the upcoming elections in Lebanon, Hezbollah said Sunday in a message posted on the Web site of its television station Al-Manar.

The German magazine reported Saturday that a U.N. tribunal looking into the murder of Hariri has uncovered evidence that Hezbollah "planned and executed" the car bombing that killed Hariri and 22 others in Beirut on Valentine's Day in 2005. Soon after the blast, U.N. investigators tasked to probe the attack found links between Syria's government and Hariri's assassination.

But Der Spiegel said in its report that the new evidence points not to the Syrians but to Hezbollah. The magazine said investigators reached their conclusion based on mobile phone use at the time of Hariri's death. The report said the phones were used exclusively for communications between the alleged assassins except for one occasion -- a suspect called a girlfriend.

Tracing that single call, investigators figured out the name of the operative who belonged to a "special forces" unit of the Hezbollah, the magazine said. Officials were then able to link him to Hezbollah higher-ups, the report said.

Source: CNN.com

The Pakistani's have finally awakened. Will the Lebanese?

 

[Mira]

Source: CNN.com

The Pakistani's have finally awakened. Will the Lebanese?

Unlike vast Pakistan, if you look at the small size of Lebanon, trying to oust the Hizbollah militarily would mean an enormous humanitarian and economical disaster that Lebanon will never survive.

You wanted democratic elections in Gaza, they voted for Hamas and you imposed sanctions on Gaza.

Lebanon is a democracy. If Hizbollah wins the parliamentary elections, what will you do ?

 

[Degreez]

Lebanon is a democracy. If Hizbollah wins the parliamentary elections, what will you do ?

Hopefully, not something that is drastic as this collective punishment:

 

[gree0232]

Rule of Law.

That is an important concept, and what a German newspaper, especially concerning Lebanon, cannot deliver by itself.

Once again, the same pro-Israeli supporters who denounce UN invesitigation regarding Gaza demand that the UN spill the beans on this explosive evidence. Really? Could we be any more hypocritical in practice?

Now, lets pretend that we actually know and take into consideration Arab culture, or indeed any culture where rumors run rampant. For years there has been an investigation into this incident, and suddenly, right before an election, there is supposedly 'secret' information that links Hezboallah to this emotional event for the Lebanese. And it just happens to be coming out right before an election that Hezboallah is widely believed to be about to win. Interesting.

And it is leaked to a German news source .... perhaps because no self respecting Lebanese journalist will print unsubstantiated rumors about something so potentially explosive.

Given the potentially explosive nature of the accusation, there had better be some incredibly convicing evidence behind it, and there is not.

Rule of law. You want Lebanon to act on this, you give them something besides unsubstantiated accussations in a German newspaper being trumpted by Pro-Israeli sources interested in justice through rumor rather than hard evidence. And none of this is driven by Israeli qualms on their Norther border?

I wonder who 'leaked' this information in the first place? That would probably be an interesting investigation in and of itself.

 

[Tashah]

And it just happens to be coming out right before an election that Hezboallah is widely believed to be about to win. Interesting.

Yes. Just as interesting as the Israeli spy ring hoopla right before the election. Such luck!

A leak from the report not yet officially released is reported on by MSNBC, which states: "The investigation had reached the conclusion about Hezbollah's involvement about a month ago." MSNBC also states that the explosives and the truck used in the assassination are linked to Hezbollah. According to MSNBC, "The assassins used eight cellular telephones bought on the same day in the city of Tripoli...one of them called his girlfriend with one of the phones, revealing his identity."

The Los Angeles Times identifies that member of Hezbollah as Abdul Majid Ghamlush, "an Iranian-trained agent who belongs to a Special Forces unit of Hezbollah." Der Spiegel states that "the mastermind of the terrorist attack (assassination of Hariri) as Hajj Salim. Hajj Salim is the commander of the military wing of Hezbollah who reports directly to Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah and to General Kassim Sulaimani in Tehran, Iran."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,626412-2,00.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30912700
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/bab...zbollah-to-hariri-death-raises-questions.html

 

[gree0232]

Yes. Just as interesting as the Israeli spy ring hoopla right before the election. Such luck!


Breakthrough in Tribunal Investigation: New Evidence Points to Hezbollah in Hariri Murder - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International
Hezbollah denies Hariri assassination report - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com
LEBANON: Report linking Hezbollah to Hariri assassination raises questions | Babylon & Beyond | Los Angeles Times

Well, interestingly enough, in the age of modern connectivity, what is the source for your other sources? "Der Spiegel states that "the mastermind of the terrorist attack ..."

Enough said.

Rule of law. Journalism is not trial and it is not presentation of evidence, but unsubstantiated rumors regarding alleged criminal conduct.

If true, why isn't the Lebanese government, about to lose to the Hizboallah implicated in this/these stories, jumping all over it?

So lets try this in reverse:

'Ugly reality' of Israel's atrocities - Times Online

"Since September 2000, Israel has killed more than 660 Palestinian children and wounded 9,000 — such as little Iman, sprayed with bullets when walking to school in Rafah last month, even after she died. Thousands of children are traumatised by the daily horrors they witness."

Bear in mind, that was from 2004, well before the most recent Gaza incursions.

So clearly, what is good for the goose is good for the gander correct? Is there anything served by this sort of atrocity oneupsmanship? Another tactic that will undoubtedly lead to peace?

And, finally, I would hope that you, and others, are not honestly hoping that another civil war breaks out right on Israel's Northern border? Does Israeli security rest upon destabilizing every regime bordering Israel? Security rests upon cloak and dagger intrigue rather than bi-lateral relations based on mutual respect?

Is this honestly what Israel thinks is peace?

 

[donsutherland1]

I would hope that you, and others, are not honestly hoping that another civil war breaks out right on Israel's Northern border? Does Israeli security rest upon destabilizing every regime bordering Israel? Security rests upon cloak and dagger intrigue rather than bi-lateral relations based on mutual respect?

Is this honestly what Israel thinks is peace?

Gree0232,

With all due respect, Tashah never articulated a position that she would view a civil war/fragmentation of Lebanon as being in Israel's national security interest.

Given the nature of the possible information--and I continue to reserve judgment until the details are released--it would make sense for the UN to confirm or deny the report. The certainty provided by such a disclosure could have some impact on upcoming elections, but it might reduce prospects of civil war/fragmentation. If, however, the UN chooses to suppress the information, if there is credible evidence that Hezbollah played a role in the Hariri assassination, and if Hezbollah wound up making substantial gains in the elections, the outcome could be much more explosive and violent than had the information been released previously. The upcoming elections can provide a forum by which voters could vent their views on the issue. The post-election environment, especially were Hezbollah to have made substantial gains, would lack such a mechanism for channelling views in a non-violent fashion.

 

[Tashah]

And, finally, I would hope that you, and others, are not honestly hoping that another civil war breaks out right on Israel's Northern border? Does Israeli security rest upon destabilizing every regime bordering Israel? Security rests upon cloak and dagger intrigue rather than bi-lateral relations based on mutual respect?

If it was Hizb'Allah, it is not certainly Israel's doing. For once in your miserable debate life ditch the excuses and the deflections. Arabs murdered Hariri. Go on, choke on it.

If it was Hizb'Allah, there is not much Lebanon can do about it without risking civil war. And ya know what? The Lebanese Army would probably lose such a war. Lebanon didn't disarm Hizb'Allah as was required by the UN cease fire resolution. Now such short-sightedness could very well come back and bite them hard in the ass. And if not now, then it is merely a postponement of the day of reckoning. Ask the Pakistani government about blowback. Ask the 700,000+ Pakistani civilians who have fled the intense internal fighting right in their own cities, towns, and villages.

If it was Hizb'Allah, I would hope that those responsible would peacefully surrender to the UN Court and Hizb'Allah would agree to be disarmed. Despite your crude and pathetic insinuation above, I have no desire to see Lebanon suffer once again from the terrorist actions of this terrorist organization.

 

[gree0232]

Gree0232,

With all due respect, Tashah never articulated a position that she would view a civil war/fragmentation of Lebanon as being in Israel's national security interest.

Given the nature of the possible information--and I continue to reserve judgment until the details are released--it would make sense for the UN to confirm or deny the report. The certainty provided by such a disclosure could have some impact on upcoming elections, but it might reduce prospects of civil war/fragmentation. If, however, the UN chooses to suppress the information, if there is credible evidence that Hezbollah played a role in the Hariri assassination, and if Hezbollah wound up making substantial gains in the elections, the outcome could be much more explosive and violent than had the information been released previously. The upcoming elections can provide a forum by which voters could vent their views on the issue. The post-election environment, especially were Hezbollah to have made substantial gains, would lack such a mechanism for channelling views in a non-violent fashion.

Well:

Here you go on Tashah:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/48753-70-palestinian-youth-oppose-violence.html

Post #10

She is 'quite indifferent' to the potential suffering of yet another civil war North of Israel. Fully aware that this story could well ignite such a war.

And as I see, far from just Tashah, eagerly anticipation, even demanding that the UN confirm or deny such a story, I am lead to ask the question I asked:

Does Israel, and her supporters, think that a brooding civil war is desireable? So long as it thwarts Hezboallah?

When newspaper release such potentially explosive stories .... in foreign newspapers, that has all the hall marks of a potential political smear campaign. If this information is so accurate, why did it not originate in the Lebonese press, many of whose more independantly minded journalists are not exactly on the Hizboallah dool?

When dealing with rumors of such dubious origins, it is usally best to ignore them. If, and that is a big IF, this story gains traction then it will be necessary to issue a clarifying statement.

Having worked with the UN in a few areas, I am quite certain they are in contact with the various branches of the Lebanese government where they have briefed the facts, quietly, to the leaders whose actions can either inflamme or calm the situation.

A media firestrom over allegations that are subsequently proven false are be incredibly unhelpful, to put it mildly.

If these allegations are true, and the Lebanese government is given time to properly prepare it security forces and prepare itself to deliver the news, that would also be a desireable outcome.

Bear in mind, if there is evidence of this conduct, it must meet the legal standards of the country it is released into. Demanding that the UN circumvent this process is neither desireable nor helpful in bringing criminals to justice.

Rule of Law. It is important.

 

[Voidwar]

Does Israel, and her supporters, think that a brooding civil war is desireable? So long as it thwarts Hezboallah?

Hell yes it is desirable that Lebanese die cleaning up their own Hizbollah mess.

Rule of Law. It is important.

If Rule of Law is important, then you know exactly why ALL of Lebanon has retaliation coming. If Lebanon Lawfully Ruled its own territory, and its proxy army, then there would be no problem, would there?

 

[Tashah]

Well:

Here you go on Tashah:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/48753-70-palestinian-youth-oppose-violence.html

Post #10

She is 'quite indifferent' to the potential suffering of yet another civil war North of Israel. Fully aware that this story could well ignite such a war.

Here I get to show everyone what a sleazeball you are. In the quote you mentioned, I was responding to Mira's musings on friendship between Lebanon and Israel. I am indifferent about friendship... not civil war. Here is my quote in its entirety:

That is exactly the way I feel about Lebanon. I am quite indifferent. If Hizb'Allah leaves Israel alone, there will be no hostilities. If the German newspaper is right about the UN report on who murdered Hariri, there could be civil war in Lebanon. Please keep it north of the border.

Anyone can check the correct context of my post. It is not at all how you twisted and mangled it.

In my previous post in this thread right up above, I did indeed give my opinion on civil war in Lebanon:

If it was Hizb'Allah, I would hope that those responsible would peacefully surrender to the UN Court and Hizb'Allah would agree to be disarmed. Despite your crude and pathetic insinuation above, I have no desire to see Lebanon suffer once again from the terrorist actions of this terrorist organization.

Lol. You are such a schmuck.

 

[gree0232]

If it was Hizb'Allah, it is not certainly Israel's doing. For once in your miserable debate life ditch the excuses and the deflections. Arabs murdered Hariri. Go on, choke on it.

If it was Hizb'Allah, there is not much Lebanon can do about it without risking civil war. And ya know what? The Lebanese Army would probably lose such a war. Lebanon didn't disarm Hizb'Allah as was required by the UN cease fire resolution. Now such short-sightedness could very well come back and bite them hard in the ass. And if not now, then it is merely a postponement of the day of reckoning. Ask the Pakistani government about blowback. Ask the 700,000+ Pakistani civilians who have fled the intense internal fighting right in their own cities, towns, and villages.

If it was Hizb'Allah, I would hope that those responsible would peacefully surrender to the UN Court and Hizb'Allah would agree to be disarmed. Despite your crude and pathetic insinuation above, I have no desire to see Lebanon suffer once again from the terrorist actions of this terrorist organization.

It was not 'Arabs' it was Syrians, based on everything but a Der Spiegel article.

Having trained Lebanese soldiers I believe I am fully aware of their limitations, and those limitations include being quite unable to disarm Hizboallah without getting their clocks cleaned. Hence, despite what the UN said (which is only relevant when applied to other nations), they simply could not disarm them, and the EU peacekeepers were not about to do it for them either.

So, Israeli security and peace initiatives rests on asking its partners in the region to do what they are not capable of doing? Applying a little of the understanding that you and Don demand be applied to Israel to the surrounding countries might prove beneficial.

Maybe, just maybe, if you could actually fathom that Arabs are human beings with real problems and concerns you wouldn't sit back and attack and demonize anything Arab and anyone who effectively presents these concerns. We are after all supposed to be crude, simple, and nothing but excuses aren't we?

Maybe, if you, and Israel, actually looked for solutions rather than excuses and catsitgation, Israel wouldn't be staring about down the barrel of yet another rebellion.

You demand that Arabs admit all of their faults while simultaneously refusing to apply the same standards of conduct to Israel. It is called hypocrisy.

That you, and many Israeli supporters are incapable of applying the same standards to both Israel and Palestine, that you view the widely dissimilar Arabs as monolthic, is not my problem.

That you advocate for policy based on these positions is my problem, and I will continue to point out those double standards and inaccuracies. Only when they are removed, only when Israel can acknowledge that the invasion of Lebanon was as traumatic for Lebanon as the 1973 War was for Israel, only when we have that equality in understanding and compassion will the parties be able to achieve true and lasting peace.

What the pro-Israeli side is advocating on this board are not policies that will lead to peace, they are policies that will lead to rebellion and insurgency -- the kind of war that Israel is least prepared and resourced to fight.

Great, have fun with Intifada v3.0. I had thought that trying to avoid such an outcome would be desireable for Israel, guess I learned nothing from the Jews I grew up with?

 

[Tashah]

It was not 'Arabs' it was Syrians, based on everything but a Der Spiegel article.

:rofl

Syrians are not Arabs? Lebanese are not Arabs? Hizb'Allah are not Arabs?

You are soooooooooooo pathetic.

 

[gree0232]

Here I get to show everyone what a sleazeball you are. In the quote you mentioned, I was responding to Mira's musings on friendship between Lebanon and Israel. I am indifferent about friendship... not civil war. Here is my quote in its entirety:



Anyone can check the correct context of my post. It is not at all how you twisted and mangled it.

In my previous post in this thread right up above, I did indeed give my opinion on civil war in Lebanon:



Lol. You are such a schmuck.

Now please check the contect of the original question above.

Here we are, all aware that this could potentially cause a civil war, lead to thousands of deaths, attempting to intervene with judicial, rather than journalistic, procedures over something so potentially explosive. Whether the information is true or false, it must be handled appropriately. No?

What is the response?

An almost gleeful rush of additional stories and the demand that this be brought forward immediately so we can bash Hizboallah!!! The potentially thousands of dead civilians that such action might accompany?

Hence the question, is this really what Israel wants? Is this desireable?

So I am a schmuck for attempting to interject reason and rationality into tabloid justice?

I can live with that. You can call me whatever you want if it means I have successfully put a halt into a gleeful rush into civil war.

All it really means is that you have lost yet another debate.

 

[Voidwar]

Having trained Lebanese soldiers I believe I am fully aware of their limitations, and those limitations include being quite unable to disarm Hizboallah without getting their clocks cleaned. Hence, despite what the UN said (which is only relevant when applied to other nations), they simply could not disarm them, and the EU peacekeepers were not about to do it for them either.

Ahh, so Lebanese are oppressed by militarily superior Hizbollah ?

Isn't that the reasoning always used to justify asymmetrical warfare ?

Why aren't you suggesting that the Lebanese start an "Intifada" against Hizbollah ?

 

[Voidwar]

All it really means is that you have lost yet another debate.

I've never met anyone who is actually from the moon, tell me, what kind of cheese is it ?

 

[Tashah]

All it really means is that you have lost yet another debate.

:spin: I've lost a few in my day, but never one to you.

 

[gree0232]

:rofl

Syrians are not Arabs? Lebanese are not Arabs? Hizb'Allah are not Arabs?

You are soooooooooooo pathetic.

Wow, Syria and Lebanon are different countries!! With different interests, systems of government, and cultures!!! Wow.

Jordanians are Arabs too. Did they assassinate Harari?

Egyptians are Arabs too. Did they assassinate Herari?

Sudan has a large Arab population. Did they assassinate Herari?

Israel, has a a sizeable Arab minority. Did they assassinate Herari?

Oh yes, I am truly pathetic for not treating the entire Arab world as monothically linked to criminal acts.

Are you done embarassing yourself?

 

[gree0232]

:spin: I've lost a few in my day, but never one to you.

I supopse you could be right. Debate requires you to actually take out the points of another posters material and at least attempt to disprove the logic.

I suppose that resorting to character assassination instead can't really be called losing a debate.

It is, nevertheless, what it is.

So, you ready to try and prove to me that Syris is, in fact, all Arabs? Good luck.