Deportations under Trump half what Biden did.

[Chomsky]

don't need judicial - we literally have laws on it

Wrong. ICE cannot force entry without a Judicial Search Warrant. In Chicago, many subjects simply refused to answer or open their doors, and after 10 minutes ICE went away.

why "last days" ?? why not show us number from 2020, 2021, 2022 ....... they were 10-12 to 15,000 a day right ?


as for numbers

ICE

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) mission is to protect America from the cross-border crime and illegal immigration that threaten national security and public safety. This mission is executed through the enforcement of more than 400 federal statutes and focuses on smart...

www.ice.gov

x.com

x.com

there are articles published with who is being deported and numbers in there to find ....

Because - like the economy - that's what Trump was handed.

 

[trixare4kids]

FFS...YOU started this thread by QUOTING A WEBSITE.

Rules for thee but not for me. They are the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[trouble13]

So was I!



Too a point.

Trumps deportations are actually decreasing, though.

Will they get better? Perhaps. But, we don't know.

Remember, the deportees are changing their behaviors in reaction to the perceptions of heightened enforcement. That's why Trump was largely unsuccessful in Chicago. The individuals were quickly educated their rights, and refused to respond to the knocks or open their doors. For whatever reason, ICE was lacking in Judicial warrants to force entry. My suspicion is the proper warrants would require too much resources, so they tried to get away with Administrative Orders.

Yes sadly American citizens are aiding and abetting the criminals. That is something this administration needs to address.

Here's the thing though. When Biden was president 100's of thousands were illegally entering the country every month. Trump has been in office less than a month and he has that traffic reduced to the low 100's.

Trump is removing the ones who are here faster than the new ones are entering. That is a net decrease in the illegal aliens population here.

Biden and his predecessors were deporting them slower than they were entering and that populations presence here grew.

I would like to see them deport more of them faster but Trump has changed changed the tide. Now he needs to hone and refine what they are doing.

 

[ashurbanipal]

Oh I agree. Most of us are far more alike in most ways than we might even like to admit.

Sometimes when I lecture in a political context or on a political subject to a mixed crowd (i.e. that contains conservatives and liberals), I ask people to imagine that they're walking out of a store--Barnes and Noble, Wal Mart, Target, doesn't matter, and they see a grown man beating a small child. I don't mean spanking it, I mean laying into the child the way he would try to beat up a man his own size, going full force with fists right into the abdomen and head of that child. Obviously, the child's life is in danger, and there's clearly nothing it could have done to deserve such treatment. What would you do? People's almost uniform answer, across all sides of the political spectrum, is the same at a certain level of generalization: they would do whatever they could to stop it. I'm a big guy with a history of training in MMA and a fair few street fights under my belt. I'd tell someone nearby to call 911 and I'd tackle the guy and subdue him. I couldn't expect, say, an elderly woman to answer the same way, but elderly women who have answered that question have said they would scream for help, scream to tell the man to stop--whatever they could do.

People on both the left and the right sometimes talk as if they think those on the other side are subhuman, evil incarnate. I use this example to point out that we all have a basic humanity and goodness (well, the vast majority of us do) that is more fundamental than our politics. We may disagree, sometimes vehemently, about the direction this country should take. But let's not forget that such disagreement is merely that--it's an expression of a certain point of view, and we can learn from it as much as argue with it.

I also think unless radical changes to realign the country with the laws of the land are realized, we are eventually lost. Why the subject of illegal immigration enforcement is even controversial is a mystery.

I can think of a couple reasons, but I agree the law should be enforced--and I certainly cannot think of any reason why we would want immigrants suspected or convicted of violent crimes among us. I think opponents of what Trump is proposing to do have confused enforcement of the law as written with the fact that those laws need to be changed, in some cases pretty radically. The one overriding problem we face is that undocumented/illegal immigrants do provide a base of labor that, were it suddenly subtracted, would result in severe economic dislocation. We should deport (or better yet, convict and lock up so they can't come back) the violent criminals, and then we need to figure out the fact that our economy needs a source of cheap labor to fulfill certain jobs. Congress needs to do something on this point.

Same goes with the ongoing DOGE efforts. A few days ago, Schumer, in attacking Trump and DOGE literally said 'We all know there is waste in the government...........'

OK./..true...we ALL KNOW THAT...but since congress 1-created the waste and 2-ignores the waste than why on earth are citizens fighting against efforts to identify and cut waste?

Politics...plain and simple.

I think the question is what, exactly, amounts to waste. I don't agree, for example, that a few thousand dollars to produce a transgender comic book is waste. Fraud is another matter, waste is up for debate.

 

[Chomsky]

Here’s a thought. Employers of illegals are conspiring to violate the law. Conspiracy is a crime. A felony. So why not seize the property under Civil Asset Forfeiture?

I think it would be a good start.

I'd go after the biggest place, first. One or two high-level examples would be hella' deterential.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Trump shut down the border. There are very few illegals crossing. With fewer coming in less need to be deported. The easy deportations is when you catch them at the border, detain them and then deport them. It can all be done by border patrol (CBP) rather than ICE.

The real number is at the end of the day how many illegals are in this country. Under Biden the number was increasing under Trump the number is decreasing.

 

[trouble13]

Which is precisely why you're wrong. They threw tons of resources at Chicago, to come-up with a paucity of arrests. Basically, no one answered or opened their doors for them.

One hour at an Iowa Poultry Packer would likely have netted far more than the "over 100" grabbed in Chicago. Ditto for one day in a border town.

One hundred for a week? In a Multi-Agency Operation of that scope? With the Agency Heads on the ground, including from DOJ, ICE, FBI, etc?

How much did all that cost? And, what did they get? Hyperbolic PR?

If your point is that the deportations results have been disappointing so far, I agree.

With that said, I am not disappointed with their their targeted approach that prioritizes the worst ones being removed first. They do need to get better at it. For now they do get some grace from me. It's only been 3 weeks. Our AG is just getting started. The FBI is still waiting for their director to be appointed. Once everyone is in place, the people aiding and abetting are not going to find it so easy to get away with doing it.

 

[trouble13]

I think it would be a good start.

I'd go after the biggest place, first. One or two high-level examples would be hella' deterential.

The problem of course is all the progressives will be upset that they will have to scrub their own toilets and their the price of the blueberries in their smoothies will go up. Trump is starting with the low hanging fruit first (pardon the pun).

 

[ashurbanipal]

The problem of course is all the progressives will be upset that they will have to scrub their own toilets and their the price of the blueberries in their smoothies will go up. Trump is starting with the low hanging fruit first (pardon the pun).

I don't know any progressive who will be upset at having to scrub their own toilets. On the other hand, if the labor base that undocumented immigrants provide in the agricultural sector were suddenly subtracted (even over the course of a couple years) it would result in massive dislocations in our economy. Food of all kinds would be massively more expensive, and when that happens, there is blood in the street.

The good news is that mass deportation efforts are rarely as successful as what Trump has promised. The last time one was we have to look way back to the 16th century in Spain. The result there was that inflation over ten years ran to around 800%. The economic consequences were, of course, almost unfathomable to us today. People starved en masse, and even the formerly wealthy struggled to purchase turnips. People plundered into the neighboring nations of France, Italy, (what would become) Portugal, Galicia, Morocco, England, etc. The decision to deport the Jews and Muslims from the newly united Kingdom of Spain under Catherine and Ferdinand was the primary reason that Spain never attained the power that France and England did, even when it was under a Spanish flag that the "new world" was discovered.

We are currently contemplating mass deportations at a time when we can least afford that kind of demographic hit. The Baby Boomers are retiring and the generations that are set to take over the workforce are not nearly as large. Subtracting another 10 million workers would be massively stupid. I think it would be much better to find them and set up a program of rapidly issuing work visas and getting them where we can just keep an eye on them--though I do agree that deporting (or better yet locking up) the violent criminals is a no-brainer.

 

[Bullseye]

Cite them. And not the "93%" being offered in lieu of numbers.

Cite them? There are liberally thousands just in USAID investigation, so far.

 

[Chomsky]

Yes sadly American citizens are aiding and abetting the criminals. That is something this administration needs to address.

"Aiding & Abetting" implies illegal acts. That's not what occurred. Chicagoans were informed of their Constitutional Rights, and the Feds were warned to not break any local laws or face the consequences.

As we can see, in many instances the Feds did not use Due Process in obtaining lawful rights to enter - so they didn't.

All-in-all, it seems the Laws and Constitutional were upheld by all involved parties.

I'm fine with this, and in fact applaud it. But, I would have preferred if the Feds had gotten the proper warrants to go inside and effect proper lawful arrests.

Here's the thing though. When Biden was president 100's of thousands were illegally entering the country every month. Trump has been in office less than a month and he has that traffic reduced to the low 100's.

I'm seeing 400/Day as per Border Patrol, but yes that would quite a bit better than Biden's 1100-1500/Day.

If we can trust Trump's numbers, that is? I'm wary of this.

Trump is removing the ones who are here faster than the new ones are entering. That is a net decrease in the illegal aliens population here.

Yes, and no. Trump may be breaking-even or doing a little better in terms of Southern-Border vs Deportation Arrests. That's a good thing if Trump's numbers are legit. But that does nothing with Over-Stayers or those entering across other Borders.

Over-Staying numbers are thought to be as much as Illegal Border-Crossing.

Biden and his predecessors were deporting them slower than they were entering and that populations presence here grew.

Not necessary true, as many of those legally entering will Over-Stay. And again, we don't know how many come across Canada or through our other ports and shores.

However, if Trump's numbers are accurate - it would be fair to say he appears to be arresting as many or more than might be coming over the Southern Border. If true, I will applaud his success.

And not trying to rain on the parade, but Over-Staying is the Elephant In The Room no one's talking about, and God only knows how to tackle this. I'm an idea guy. I usually have tons of ideas on solving problems, but I swear I haven't the foggiest on tackling Over-Staying.

I would like to see them deport more of them faster but Trump has changed changed the tide. Now he needs to hone and refine what they are doing.

I do applaud his taking efforts in solving the problem. But I can't take his efforts seriously, until he starts raiding large employers and slapping them with criminal complaints.

And he still refuses to implement Mandatory E-Verify.

So right now, all I see is the usual Trumpian hyperbolic PR. Although I admit it may be having a psychological effect leading to less crossers at the Southern Border. So, that would be a good fallout from it.

 

[Chomsky]

Any my point would be that the gotcha article on the gotcha article is itself problematic (if not outright misleading) in its own claims about both the Newsweek gotcha article and the overall situation as it exists. As I mentioned to Redbeer, I suspect what we will likely see after about a year (too early to tell right now) is that Trump will have been about 10% or 15% more effective than past presidents at stemming and correcting illegal immigration. Such would be a real achievement and if it happens, Trump should get credit for it, but it would be far short both of what was promised and what would be needed to actually correct the issue.

Look: I'm an American, and so are you (I assume). We may disagree about a great many things, but I don't ever forget that basic kinship, and I hope to convince you and others on the right, and others on the left, to learn to recognize that fact once again. The powers that be on both sides have striven to divide us so that the economic elites can plunder this country, and it's been working like a charm.

They've managed to do it by using techniques that would be invisible to those to whom they sell their own divisive vision. Until we lose the consciousness that our fellow countrymen are evil and are the enemy, we will collectively fail to recognize where the real evil, the real enemy, is, and the many ills of this society will continue unabated, and only accelerate.

Hear! Hear!

 

[Chomsky]

If your point is that the deportations results have been disappointing so far, I agree.

With that said, I am not disappointed with their their targeted approach that prioritizes the worst ones being removed first.

Alright, that's a fair response.

My gut feeling is Trump is playing Shock & Awe Politics, though.

And again, why isn't he going after the large employers? The Corporate Farms & Poultry Packing Operations? That is a huge question, unrelated to his Deportation Operations.

They do need to get better at it. For now they do get some grace from me. It's only been 3 weeks. Our AG is just getting started. The FBI is still waiting for their director to be appointed. Once everyone is in place, the people aiding and abetting are not going to find it so easy to get away with doing it.

Again, that's a fair response I won't argue against.

In fact, I hope you're right.

But he better get some serious shyte accomplished, besides making political pawns of the cities many of us call home - if he wants us to accept him as legit.

 

[Chomsky]

The problem of course is all the progressives will be upset that they will have to scrub their own toilets and their the price of the blueberries in their smoothies will go up. Trump is starting with the low hanging fruit first (pardon the pun).

Quite honestly, rural employees, rural business/farm owners, and Corporate ownership would get pi****.

I can't believe you suggested what you did. It's total nonsense.

 

[Chomsky]

I don't know any progressive who will be upset at having to scrub their own toilets.

On the other hand, if the labor base that undocumented immigrants provide in the agricultural sector were suddenly subtracted (even over the course of a couple years) it would result in massive dislocations in our economy. Food of all kinds would be massively more expensive, and when that happens, there is blood in the street.

The good news is that mass deportation efforts are rarely as successful as what Trump has promised. The last time one was we have to look way back to the 16th century in Spain. The result there was that inflation over ten years ran to around 800%. The economic consequences were, of course, almost unfathomable to us today. People starved en masse, and even the formerly wealthy struggled to purchase turnips. People plundered into the neighboring nations of France, Italy, (what would become) Portugal, Galicia, Morocco, England, etc. The decision to deport the Jews and Muslims from the newly united Kingdom of Spain under Catherine and Ferdinand was the primary reason that Spain never attained the power that France and England did, even when it was under a Spanish flag that the "new world" was discovered.

We are currently contemplating mass deportations at a time when we can least afford that kind of demographic hit. The Baby Boomers are retiring and the generations that are set to take over the workforce are not nearly as large. Subtracting another 10 million workers would be massively stupid. I think it would be much better to find them and set up a program of rapidly issuing work visas and getting them where we can just keep an eye on them--though I do agree that deporting (or better yet locking up) the violent criminals is a no-brainer.

You forgot the Fruit Smoothies, that were the other part of the claim!

My God, I haven't seen much more out-of-touch meme-ing.

Do these guys know any Liberals? Not by that claim! If I have Conservatives in my life, many of whom I Like, Trust, and even Love - they surely can get to know a Liberal or Two in their own lives!

 

[Chomsky]

Cite them? There are liberally thousands just in USAID investigation, so far.

Think you got the wrong thread. My response was to Southern Border Crossers.

 

[trouble13]

"Aiding & Abetting" implies illegal acts. That's not what occurred. Chicagoans were informed of their Constitutional Rights, and the Feds were warned to not break any local laws or face the consequences.

As we can see, in many instances the Feds did not use Due Process in obtaining lawful rights to enter - so they didn't.

All-in-all, it seems the Laws and Constitutional were upheld by all involved parties.

I'm fine with this, and in fact applaud it. But, I would have preferred if the Feds had gotten the proper warrants to go inside and effect proper lawful arrests.




I'm seeing 400/Day as per Border Patrol, but yes that would quite a bit better than Biden's 1100-1500/Day.

If we can trust Trump's numbers, that is? I'm wary of this.




Yes, and no. Trump may be breaking-even or doing a little better in terms of Southern-Border vs Deportation Arrests. That's a good thing if Trump's numbers are legit. But that does nothing with Over-Stayers or those entering across other Borders.

Over-Staying numbers are thought to be as much as Illegal Border-Crossing.



Not necessary true, as many of those legally entering will Over-Stay. And again, we don't know how many come across Canada or through our other ports and shores.

However, if Trump's numbers are accurate - it would be fair to say he appears to be arresting as many or more than might be coming over the Southern Border. If true, I will applaud his success.

And not trying to rain on the parade, but Over-Staying is the Elephant In The Room no one's talking about, and God only knows how to tackle this. I'm an idea guy. I usually have tons of ideas on solving problems, but I swear I haven't the foggiest on tackling Over-Staying.



I do applaud his taking efforts in solving the problem. But I can't take his efforts seriously, until he starts raiding large employers and slapping them with criminal complaints.

And he still refuses to implement Mandatory E-Verify.

So right now, all I see is the usual Trumpian hyperbolic PR. Although I admit it may be having a psychological effect leading to less crossers at the Southern Border. So, that would be a good fallout from it.

Your points are valid. I won't disparage anything you say here. The only thing I will say is we are just going to have to wait and see.

 

[Luce]

Yes sadly American citizens are aiding and abetting the criminals. That is something this administration needs to address.

What do you suggest?

Concealing an illegal is already a crime. Smuggling or assisting in the smuggling of people is already a crime.

What else should be criminalized?

 

[Chomsky]

Your points are valid. I won't disparage anything you say here. The only thing I will say is we are just going to have to wait and see.

Thanks!

Part of the problem with Trump is he's such a bull**** artist and despicable guy, that it's hard to divorce one's feelings from him even if he does something good.

Because even if it is something good, his personality makes you want to despise him & whatever it is he did.

As for me, the constant lies & bull**** are just too much. I don' trust a thing he says. So yeah, it takes a lot for me to come to believe his claims. I can, when I see credible proof. We didn't see it in Chicago, but it could be happening at the border. Maybe.

 

[trouble13]

Alright, that's a fair response.

My gut feeling is Trump is playing Shock & Awe Politics, though.

And again, why isn't he going after the large employers? The Corporate Farms & Poultry Packing Operations? That is a huge question, unrelated to his Deportation Operations.



Again, that's a fair response I won't argue against.

In fact, I hope you're right.

But he better get some serious shyte accomplished, besides making political pawns of the cities many of us call home - if he wants us to accept him as legit.

I have a theory that answers your question about targeting large employers but in spirit of full disclosure this is based on nothing other than my gut feeling.

I think Trump is going to offer a comprise for the gainfully employed illegals. Perhaps employers will pay a fine and a fee for non-citizen workers. Those workers will be given an opportunity to become documented noncitizen workers. I think he is planning on forging some kind of agreement when he gets done removing the more problematic ones that are here.

Trump has always talked about having a big beautiful wall with a door. Work visas is likely the form his door takes.

The reality is that it makes sense for America to allow foreign workers into our labor market in a controlled manner.

If Trump's tariffs work our export market will expand and our industries may very well need the labor to meet the new demand.

 

[trouble13]

Thanks!

Part of the problem with Trump is he's such a bull**** artist and despicable guy, that it's hard to divorce one's feelings from him even if he does something good.

Because even if it is something good, his personality makes you want to despise him & whatever it is he did.

As for me, the constant lies & bull**** are just too much. I don' trust a thing he says. So yeah, it takes a lot for me to come to believe his claims. I can, when I see credible proof. We didn't see it in Chicago, but it could be happening at the border. Maybe.

I like the guy

but then again I like you too so we know I don't have great taste in people

 

[Chomsky]

I have a theory that answers your question about targeting large employers but in spirit of full disclosure this is based on nothing other than my gut feeling.

I think Trump is going to offer a comprise for the gainfully employed illegals. Perhaps employers will pay a fine and a fee for non-citizen workers. Those workers will be given an opportunity to become documented noncitizen workers. I think he is planning on forging some kind of agreement when he gets done removing the more problematic ones that are here.

Trump has always talked about having a big beautiful wall with a door. Work visas is likely the form his door takes.

The reality is that it makes sense for America to allow foreign workers into our labor market in a controlled manner.

If Trump's tariffs work our export market will expand and our industries may very well need the labor to meet the new demand.

That may well be. And, it might be a solution. But only after Americans can fill those jobs, and wages are allowed to rise to their natural wage-level in a predominate domestic employee environment.

But, it still doesn't explain why Trump isn't going after illegal hiring practices?Nor does that explain the lack of E-Verify, either? We all know Illegal Employment is the draw!

If Trump were to go after illegal entry and employment in its entirety, he might be taken as sincere. If all he's going to do is round-up individual Hispanics, it looks like a MAGA Culture War.

Please do yourself a favor. Check-out one of the Bush-Obama Era raids, I linked below. They got 400 Illegal Workers, and at least a dozen or more managers & owners on Criminal Charges. Most get some Prison Time. The senior people involved got more serious Prison Time. The CEO got 27 years! (though for some unknown reason, Trump pardoned the CEO as soon as he got in Office)

Besides Trump's unfortunate subsequent pardoning of the CEO, that's how you do a take-down. All, in one day!

The plant was allowed to operate under new direct management. Some of the guilty managers returned to work at the plant after their releases from prison. I would assume they learned to keep their noses clean, and served as an example.

But seriously, consider at least reading the Wiki intro to see how we used to handle illegal employers. Then, tell me if you wouldn't want to go back to the days of legit employer enforcement?

Here:

Postville raid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Chomsky]

I like the guy

but then again I like you too so we know I don't have great taste in people

Hah! Ditto! Even though my Pops always told me to stay away from Trouble!

 

[trouble13]

That may well be. And, it might be a solution. But only after Americans can fill those jobs, and wages are allowed to rise to their natural wage-level in a predominate domestic employee environment.

But, it still doesn't explain why Trump isn't going after illegal hiring practices?Nor does that explain the lack of E-Verify, either? We all know Illegal Employment is the draw!

If Trump were to go after illegal entry and employment in its entirety, he might be taken as sincere. If all he's going to do is round-up individual Hispanics, it looks like a MAGA Culture War.

Please do yourself a favor. Check-out one of the Bush-Obama Era raids, I linked below. They got 400 Illegal Workers, and at least a dozen or more managers & owners on Criminal Charges. Most get some Prison Time. The senior people involved got more serious Prison Time. The CEO got 27 years! (though for some unknown reason, Trump pardoned the CEO as soon as he got in Office)

Besides Trump's unfortunate subsequent pardoning of the CEO, that's how you do a take-down. All, in one day!

The plant was allowed to operate under new direct management. Some of the guilty managers returned to work at the plant after their releases from prison. I would assume they learned to keep their noses clean, and served as an example.

But seriously, consider at least reading the Wiki intro to see how we used to handle illegal employers. Then, tell me if you wouldn't want to go back to the days of legit employer enforcement?

Here:

Postville raid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I can tell you before reading your link that I am 100% for penalizing anyone who knowingly employees anyone here illegally.

 

[Bullseye]

Think you got the wrong thread. My response was to Southern Border Crossers.

Oops