Democrats vow to fight Trump administration over Census citizenship question

[MrMike]

You know, if Democrats would fight for American Citizens rights as hard as they do for illegal aliens that would be really cool...

weird they don't do that... I wonder why?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Notice in the 2010 form they draw a box around the census information and question 1. Everything else is extra and you are not legally required to answer it. If you choose to answer anything else your doing so voluntarily.

Interesting concept in light of United States Code, Title 13 (Census), Chapter 7 (Offenses and Penalties), SubChapter II, Section 221. Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers which says:

(a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.
(b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a) of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is false, shall be fined not more than $500.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body.​

Don't take your "Real True Patriotic American Patriot's American Patriotic Guide to Being a 'Real True Patriotic American Patriotic Sovereign Citizen'" too seriously.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

We ALL should have a problem with undocumented people.

Most people do. Some of them think that they should be "documented" with consideration being given to whether or not they have lived the type of life that most people expect most people to live, some people want to see them all tossed out of the country regardless of what type of person they ended up being and also regardless of how they ended up in the country in the first place.

What should non-citizens get the rights of citizens?

Good question. I believe that it has something to do with being a nation of laws.

Of course, if Congress wanted to pass legislation specifically restricting the "due process" which was due to anyone accused/suspected of being an "illegal alien" to not being beaten senseless more than twice per week while waiting to be transported over the US border and dropped off buck naked. Then that would be "constitutional" as well.

Do you suggest that that be done?

What is the matter with you 'progressives'?

I presume over and above viewing everyone as a human being.

Do you need illegals to vote to get your programs through?

By definition "illegals" are not citizens and thus not eligible to vote.

Aren't your programs strong enough to get passed by real citizens?

If they do get passed by "real citizens" (you know "voters") would that mean that you would support them?

 

[MTAtech]

Let us look at this by the constitution. There is a conflict at set here.

From the original text of the Constitution (Article I, Section 2):

“Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative...”

they have hence changed the formula because it would be an absurd number of people in congress.

Both sides have a case in here.

Indians didn't pay taxes so they were excluded.

however the census did include citizen and non-citizen.

the impact on reps would be almost non-existant. IE CA would only lose like 2 seats in the house.
so they would have 49 instead of 51.

The bold portion was repealed and replaced by the below, in the 14th Amendment.

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.

The red was repealed in the 19th Amendment and blue was repealed by the 26th Amendment.

I see nothing that limits the census to a count of citizens.

 

[slick]

Let us look at this by the constitution. There is a conflict at set here.

From the original text of the Constitution (Article I, Section 2):

“Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative...”

they have hence changed the formula because it would be an absurd number of people in congress.

Both sides have a case in here.

Indians didn't pay taxes so they were excluded.

however the census did include citizen and non-citizen.

the impact on reps would be almost non-existant. IE CA would only lose like 2 seats in the house.
so they would have 49 instead of 51.

Maybe I'm embellishing the effect but Of course immigration status should be
Be Asked On The US Census! If not California might have 65 electoral votes
in 2020 & 80 by 2024. This is a ridiculous question subject to ridicule. Why in
the world should 3rd worlders be included to find out how many USA citizens live here.
Even stiffs like Mrs. Clinton could win coming elections if this nonsense continues.

 

[trouble13]

Interesting concept in light of United States Code, Title 13 (Census), Chapter 7 (Offenses and Penalties), SubChapter II, Section 221. Refusal or neglect to answer questions; false answers which says:

(a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.
(b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a) of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is false, shall be fined not more than $500.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body.​

Don't take your "Real True Patriotic American Patriot's American Patriotic Guide to Being a 'Real True Patriotic American Patriotic Sovereign Citizen'" too seriously.

I looked it up and you do appear to be correct which is news to me. I have slways been under the impression that we were only legally obligated to answer how many people reside in the household. That's all I answered in the last one and never heard anything about it.

I guess I risked a $100 fine for not answering

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

 

[MrMike]

I looked it up and you do appear to be correct which is news to me. I have slways been under the impression that we were only legally obligated to answer how many people reside in the household. That's all I answered in the last one and never heard anything about it.

I guess I risked a $100 fine for not answering

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

I've never even had a census worker stop by. Either I was overseas or at work? I dunno.

 

[trouble13]

I've never even had a census worker stop by. Either I was overseas or at work? I dunno.

I got mine in the mail.

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[MrMike]

I got mine in the mail.

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Ahh... I bet my wife answered it then. I seem to remember when I was a teen, they went door to door in New Orleans.

 

[slick]

My boss is white as snow but his grandfather is from South Africa. So he is technically an African American so he said he usually puts "other" in questionnaires that ask for his race.

Unusual situation, funny interesting post

 

[leekohler2]

Next census, I'm going to check the boxes that say I am an undocumented illegal alien female.

Then when they come after me and find a white guy, they'll freak.

 

[ludin]

The bold portion was repealed and replaced by the below, in the 14th Amendment.

The red was repealed in the 19th Amendment and blue was repealed by the 26th Amendment.

I see nothing that limits the census to a count of citizens.

You just quoted the exact same thing I did.

 

[ludin]

Next census, I'm going to check the boxes that say I am an undocumented illegal alien female.

Then when they come after me and find a white guy, they'll freak.

Then they will hand you a fine from 200-5k dollars and tell you to have a nice day.

 

[leekohler2]

Then they will hand you a fine from 200-5k dollars and tell you to have a nice day.

Go for it, ludin. My lawyer will tell you to suck it.

The government can't force me to do anything. Oh wait, are you saying the government should force me to give up personal information?
Are you saying I should be forced as an American citizen to give up personal info? I do not have to say anything on a census I don't want to. Isn't that against what you believe in? Or does that just apply to people you don't like?

Tell you this right now, I have never given personal info on a census to date. I'm almost 51 years old. Come get me.

 

[NonoBadDog]

Go for it, ludin. My lawyer will tell you to suck it.

The government can't force me to do anything. Oh wait, are you saying the government should force me to give up personal information?
Are you saying I should be forced as an American citizen to give up personal info? I do not have to say anything on a census I don't want to. Isn't that against what you believe in? Or does that just apply to people you don't like?

Tell you this right now, I have never given personal info on a census to date. I'm almost 51 years old. Come get me.

Do you have an idiot for an attorney? Just wondering. Why would your attorney tell anyone to "suck it" much less try to hunt ludin down to tell him to "suck it", whatever "it" is.

 

[jmotivator]

Care to show that in the constitution?

*edit... found it.

Amendment 14 section 2

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.​

The census is supposed to count ALL people in their state. Voting rights and representation are restricted to citizenship.

There are laws in place that already disregard state residents from the census total population, so this argument of yours is not as cut and dry as you think. The basic argument would be something like this: A military person stationed in state does not count to apportionment because their legal residence is in another state... therefor an illegal resident should not be counted towards apportionment as their legal residence is not even in the US. The same rule doesn't apply to legal resident aliens as their legal residence is in the state where they appear on the census.

 

[AliHajiSheik]

Do you have an idiot for an attorney? Just wondering. Why would your attorney tell anyone to "suck it" much less try to hunt ludin down to tell him to "suck it", whatever "it" is.

Often times that's what they say when people represent themselves.

 

[Deuce]

You know, if Democrats would fight for American Citizens rights as hard as they do for illegal aliens that would be really cool...

weird they don't do that... I wonder why?

Says a guy who probably screeched his head off at the idea of two dudes he's never met getting married.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I looked it up and you do appear to be correct which is news to me.

I'd be pretty silly to simply invent sections from the USC - wouldn't I?

I have slways been under the impression that we were only legally obligated to answer how many people reside in the household.

Possibly because you listened to someone who didn't know what they were talking about when they told you something that you wanted to hear and didn't take the time to find out for yourself whether the person who told you what you wanted to hear was full of crap or not.

That's all I answered in the last one and never heard anything about it.

The Census Bureau generally doesn't prosecute - except when the violator makes a big thing out of the fact that they aren't complying with the law and starts encouraging other people to do the same.

Provided that the number of "incomplete responses" is low enough, and the number of "complete responses" is high enough (and how low that number actually has to be would astound you) the actuaries at the Census Bureau can work out a quite accurate interpolation of what "would" have been on the "incomplete response" - at least one that is close enough for government work.

I guess I risked a $100 fine for not answering

We all take risks every day - some we know about, some we do not know about.

PS - You might notice that the phrase "refuses or willfully neglects" is another example of sloppy legislative drafting where it may, or may not, be required to prove "intent" in order to obtain a conviction. I mean, is "Well, I always intended to get around to filling in the rest of the form and forgot that I hadn't done so when I saw that the filing date was fast approaching and mailed the form in without checking to see if I had actually filled in the whole form the way that I always intended to do." a sufficient defence if charged with a violation under Section 221? How about "The dog ate the form and I didn't know how to get a new one."?

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

 

[MrMike]

Says a guy who probably screeched his head off at the idea of two dudes he's never met getting married.

Eh? that made zero sense...

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Next census, I'm going to check the boxes that say I am an undocumented illegal alien female.

Then when they come after me and find a white guy, they'll freak.

Wilfully providing false data is also an offence.

Keep a toothbrush and change of underwear ready.

 

[trouble13]

Go for it, ludin. My lawyer will tell you to suck it.

The government can't force me to do anything. Oh wait, are you saying the government should force me to give up personal information?
Are you saying I should be forced as an American citizen to give up personal info? I do not have to say anything on a census I don't want to. Isn't that against what you believe in? Or does that just apply to people you don't like?

Tell you this right now, I have never given personal info on a census to date. I'm almost 51 years old. Come get me.

According to some people, You can excercise your right to remain silent and not answer their questions

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

 

[SirGareth]

Care to show that in the constitution?

*edit... found it.

Amendment 14 section 2

Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.​

The census is supposed to count ALL people in their state. Voting rights and representation are restricted to citizenship.

But wait, untaxed Indians are people too. Are thy counted today?

I would also argue that 21 year old or older male border invaders are not citizens of the USA and, right there in black and white, the constitution specifies they must be excluded in the same proportion they represent of all the 21 year old or older males from the census.

 

[Deuce]

Eh? that made zero sense...

Liberals fought for the rights of Americans to marry the one they love. Conservatives fought against it.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

The government can't force me to do anything.

You are 100% correct - there is only one absolutely irrevocable right/freedom and that is the right/freedom to say "No.".

True, the government can charge you with a crime if you do say "No.".

True, the government can try you for a crime if you do say "No.".

True, the government can convict you of a crime if you do say "No.".

True, the government can fine you if you do say "No.".

True, the government can imprison you if you do say "No.".

True, the government can even execute you if you do say "No.".

BUT the government simply cannot make you say "Yes." unless you abandon your right/freedom to say "No." and that is something that you, yourself, do.

Oh wait, are you saying the government should force me to give up personal information?

That isn't what he said at all. What he did say was that the government had the power to punish you for not giving up personal information. He didn't say anything at all about whether the government SHOULD have that power, only that it DOES have that power.

Are you saying I should be forced as an American citizen to give up personal info?

He didn't say that at all. He just said that the laws of the United States of America would enable the government of the United States of America (which you might remember is selected by Americans, in American elections, conducted by Americans, held in accordance with the American Constitution and American law) to punish you if you didn't.

I do not have to say anything on a census I don't want to.

Quite right, and you have exactly the same right to be punished for failing to comply with American law as does every other person in the United States of America - regardless of their citizenship.

Isn't that against what you believe in? Or does that just apply to people you don't like?

I don't know what his position is, but mine is that "reality" takes precedence over "fantasy" everytime.

What's yours?

Tell you this right now, I have never given personal info on a census to date. I'm almost 51 years old. Come get me.

If you were important enough to the government for the government to bother about, they would.