Democrats lost 10 points of support last night. The question is, what has the party done to deserve votes?

[bomberfox]

Then you're blind, and didn't answer the question what Republicans have done to deserve votes.

Democrats have not made substantial institutional change. I mean yeah you can brag about all the dollars dolled out but the institutions need a HUGE overhaul.

 

[bomberfox]

What have they done? Largely standing in the path of Democrats radical plans.

The democrats are embarking on a further expansion of the welfare programs that are bankrupting this nation. They are waging class warfare as a matter of policy. They are mismanaging the economy as a whole by encouraging and promoting lower worker participations and stoking inflation. They are pushing social policies that the majority of the nation are rather obviously opposed to.

So yea, in this case, doing nothing is absolutely valuable.

The democratic party of old is as dead as the GOP party of old. Both parties have driven their policies towards the extreme. The left is being dominated by the progressives through a strategy of elder abuse.

Ummmmmmm…. The democratic party of old….. how old? If its the jim crow democratic party im glad its dead. You do absolutely nothing anyway and just claim you are standing against a radical agenda no matter what it is because the truth is republicans dont want to govern.

 

[bomberfox]

LOL A lot of Republicans believe Democrats drink baby blood. Does that mean all of them do?

Although just one in 10 adults who self-identify as center-right have a favorable view of QAnon, a survey conducted by Citizen Data found that 62 percent of conservatives believe in at least one core conspiracy theory born from the movement.

https://thefulcrum.us/big-picture/qanon-conspiracy-theory

Gawd i just want to cuss those people out and shout. Get a ****ing epi pen! You dont need adrenochrome and adrenochrome does not prevent aging.

 

[ttwtt78640]

He is not opposed to changing the rules about campaign finances in fact has introduced legislation that would reform it. Meanwhile he is doing what everyone else is doing and you fault him for it? He follows the rules we have.

That is precisely my point. Those in power are not about to stop doing anything which currently gives them an advantage.

 

[Craig234]

Democrats have not made substantial institutional change. I mean yeah you can brag about all the dollars dolled out but the institutions need a HUGE overhaul.

And Joe Biden hasn't used his x-ray vision to find out China's plans. Because he doesn't have x-ray vision, just like he doesn't have the votes to make institutional change.

 

[Craig234]

The "real" agenda of the national Republican Party, as evidenced by their actual behavior when they win power, is pretty simple: Pass a big tax cut for the rich, confirm some judges, and basically do nothing else besides status-quo spending bills to keep the lights on. Whenever they deviate from that approach (e.g. the war in Iraq, trying to privatize social security, trying to repeal Obamacare) it usually ends badly for them. And lots of voters are perfectly OK with that agenda.

The 'real agenda' is plutocracy. People are voting for their 'retail agenda', not the 'real agenda'. That's why they have to try hide their real agenda, like give tiny tax cuts to everyone so they can talk about 'tax cuts for all' and fool the low-information voters from what they're doing. And guns and gays and immigrants and war on Christmas.

OK but their voters have seen their agenda play out many times and continue voting for them. So the logical conclusion is either 1) their voters are on the side of the plutocrats, 2) their voters don't see it as a victory for the plutocrats, 3) their voters don't see a class struggle against the plutocrats as being an essential factor in how they vote.

4) Turns out, billions spent on propaganda has an effect. Which causes 3.

If people continue voting the same way year after year, I think it's a mistake to assume they are being confused by Republican jedi mind tricks. They are voting for Republicans because Republicans are doing something that they like.

No, it doesn't mean that.

There is a caravan of Mexicans on their way to your house to steal your things, but I'll protect you. Where, I diverted them. You appreciate it right? They get people to hate Democrats and vote against them, they make people afraid of things they say they'll protect them from, and so on. That's not substance. It's con jobs.

Face it, the Republican voter base has pretty much been turned into a cult, and it's meaningless to try to make sense like normal politics. See the pro-covid politics for an example of the crazy.

 

[iguanaman]

That is precisely my point. Those in power are not about to stop doing anything which currently gives them an advantage.

But I just showed you legislation that the Democrats including Schumer support that significantly reforms campaign finance laws. Are you saying that they are not real?

 

[Craig234]

No, they're loud and they're too willing to eat their own. We certainly do have a problem with our Corporate Overlords and the influence they have to protect the wealthy and push out the middle class. But the Progressives are not quite in charge as of yet, and they'll have to stop eating their own and learn to spin and hold a narrative.

Ya, they're so loud, I never hear about Manchin and Senima (two people), only what progressives (96 in the House caucus) have to say. Media is just drowning in progressive coverage. Hey were you at the JFK Jr return?

 

[ttwtt78640]

But I just showed you legislation that the Democrats including Schumer support that significantly reforms campaign finance laws. Are you saying that they are not real?

The bills (proposals?) may be real, but they have no real chance of becoming law. Countless bills never make it out of committee to face sure defeat (or death by filibuster) in a Senate floor vote.

 

[Craig234]

Two things:

1. Agree with you about the real vs marketed agenda of the Republican Party. The problem is that you don't use the same criteria to criticize the left. Which leads me to the related point below...

2. We've had four full Democratic terms (now in our fifth) in the WH since Regan, and two of the four also had a Democratic Congress, at least for a time. If the Democrats had truly been interested in reversing some trend you ascribe entirely to Republicans regarding the amassing of wealth, they had an opportunity to do so.

Just like Republicans sell "small government" but deliver Big Spending, Democrats sell "wealth inequality" but deliver Same Old.

The fact is that in a mostly capitalist society wealth is going to concentrate pretty much no matter what you do.

I do the same to the left. You seem confused about Democrats versus progressives. Progressives' real and retail agendas are pretty much the same. We've had corporate Democrats, "neo-liberal", for all the terms you mention. We haven't really had progressive economic policies between LBJ and this current administration, with this one blocked by two Senators. Your criticisms of Clinton/Obama are right. Your 'fact' is wrong, if people vote better.

 

[Gatsby]

The 'real agenda' is plutocracy. People are voting for their 'retail agenda', not the 'real agenda'. That's why they have to try hide their real agenda, like give tiny tax cuts to everyone so they can talk about 'tax cuts for all' and fool the low-information voters from what they're doing. And guns and gays and immigrants and war on Christmas.

If these things are both effective at winning votes and irrelevant to the things you care about, then why don't Democrats just co-opt them, and tell voters that Republicans are really the ones grabbing your guns and waging war on Christmas?

4) Turns out, billions spent on propaganda has an effect. Which causes 3.

Propaganda, n.
1. Any widely-shared opinion which I personally dislike.

No, it doesn't mean that.

There is a caravan of Mexicans on their way to your house to steal your things, but I'll protect you. Where, I diverted them. You appreciate it right? They get people to hate Democrats and vote against them, they make people afraid of things they say they'll protect them from, and so on. That's not substance. It's con jobs.

OK, if there's no substance to it, then the logical thing to do would be for Democrats to claim that it's actually Republicans sending caravans of Mexicans into your neighborhood.

Face it, the Republican voter base has pretty much been turned into a cult, and it's meaningless to try to make sense like normal politics. See the pro-covid politics for an example of the crazy.

This is a pretty simple premise of democracy.
If people vote for the same party year after year, it's because they agree with the party on something that's important to them. It may not be important to *you*, but that's why elections exist.

 

[Ikari]

Ya, they're so loud, I never hear about Manchin and Senima (two people), only what progressives (96 in the House caucus) have to say. Media is just drowning in progressive coverage. Hey were you at the JFK Jr return?

Oh no, a snarky response with nothing dealing with the topic. Oh my, I've never!

lol

You can try to deflect if you want, but the Democrats are just turning on themselves instead of trying to control headlines and crafting a narrative. The Democrats are ****ing stupid.

 

[Craig234]

Oh no, a snarky response with nothing dealing with the topic. Oh my, I've never!

Ya, sarcastically agreeing with you how progressive coverage dominates the media has nothing to do with your claim how loud progressives are.

You can try to deflect if you want, but the Democrats are just turning on themselves instead of trying to control headlines and crafting a narrative. The Democrats are ****ing stupid.

You're so good at math. 1+1=over 200.

 

[Ikari]

Ya, sarcastically agreeing with you how progressive coverage dominates the media has nothing to do with your claim how loud progressives are.



You're so good at math. 1+1=over 200.

Oh, you don't even know how good I am at math. PhD in Physics, I know math that would put you to sleep in minutes.

 

[Craig234]

Oh, you don't even know how good I am at math. PhD in Physics, I know math that would put you to sleep in minutes.

And yet you can't count to two.

 

[Craig234]

If these things are both effective at winning votes and irrelevant to the things you care about, then why don't Democrats just co-opt them, and tell voters that Republicans are really the ones grabbing your guns and waging war on Christmas?

There are numerous reasons, but let's mention one key reason: that the right controls the machine, the megaphone, the big bucks pay for THEIR message.

If people vote for the same party year after year, it's because they agree with the party on something that's important to them. It may not be important to *you*, but that's why elections exist.

So, you do not understand the idea of propaganda persuading people.

 

[Ikari]

And yet you can't count to two.

Math isn't done with numbers.

 

[Gatsby]

There are numerous reasons, but let's mention one key reason: that the right controls the machine, the megaphone, the big bucks pay for THEIR message.

In recent election cycles the parties have been pretty evenly matched in terms of campaign donations and spending, with perhaps a slight edge to the Democrats.

So, you do not understand the idea of propaganda persuading people.

I'm sure they would say exactly the same thing about you...that you've been brainwashed by liberal propaganda.

Another way of saying this is that people have different values and care about different things.

 

[Craig234]

Math isn't done with numbers.

Yup, no numbers in math at all.

 

[Ikari]

Yup, no numbers in math at all.

Nope, just variables.

lol

 

[Craig234]

In recent election cycles the parties have been pretty evenly matched in terms of campaign donations and spending, with perhaps a slight edge to the Democrats.

I wasn't talking about 'campaign spending', I was talking about propaganda machines. Fox News, right-wing talk radio, social meda, 'praeger U', hundreds of climate denial websites funded by Exxon, on and on.

I'm sure they would say exactly the same thing about you...that you've been brainwashed by liberal propaganda.

Yes, round earthers and flat earthers can each say the other is wrong. You can't tell who is right more than that?

 

[Gatsby]

I wasn't talking about 'campaign spending', I was talking about propaganda machines. Fox News, right-wing talk radio, social meda, 'praeger U', hundreds of climate denial websites funded by Exxon, on and on.

In other words, some people and organizations believe different things than you do, and they have successfully persuaded many people of the merits of their position, who then vote accordingly.

In a liberal democracy, that's how things are supposed to work. It's not a problem to be solved.

Yes, round earthers and flat earthers can each say the other is wrong. You can't tell who is right more than that?

I think that many of the viewpoints on Fox News and Prager U are ridiculous, and sometimes quite unhinged.
I also think that many of the viewpoints on The Young Turks and MSNBC are ridiculous, and sometimes quite unhinged.

Your media bubble isn't special. If you think that wherever you get your news has a monopoly on the truth, that's called a cult.

 

[iguanaman]

The bills (proposals?) may be real, but they have no real chance of becoming law. Countless bills never make it out of committee to face sure defeat (or death by filibuster) in a Senate floor vote.

They have no chance because 100% of Republicans want to keep the corrupt system intact because they profit from it. That is the truth and the only way to fix it is to vote out Republicans. That should not be so hard should it?

 

[Razoo]

Democrats have done much more. They passed the over $1 trillion Covid relief act, which provided great benefits. They have kept the economy from crashing and people from being a lot worse off, at the cost of some far less harmful, short-term inflation. Nearly all Democrats -96% - have fought for a historic package of things the country wants and needs, and will likely pass a lot within days.

But what have Republicans done? Absolutely nothing but oppose all the good programs of the Democrats.

Republicans have done absolutely nothing, and are trying to do absolutely nothing for the country. They are relying entirely on propaganda/misinformation.

Republicans are offering absolutely nothing. What have they done for voters to deserve votes?

Republicans sponsor voter suppression and gerrymandering = illegal.

 

[Perotista]

By party, of course, I mean the Republican Party. What have they done to deserve votes last night, or in 2022 or 2024?

Democrats have done much more. They passed the over $1 trillion Covid relief act, which provided great benefits. They have kept the economy from crashing and people from being a lot worse off, at the cost of some far less harmful, short-term inflation. Nearly all Democrats -96% - have fought for a historic package of things the country wants and needs, and will likely pass a lot within days.

But what have Republicans done? Absolutely nothing but oppose all the good programs of the Democrats. The Covid relief package didn't get a single Republican vote - before it passed and Republicans then claimed credit for its benefits. Republicans oppose everything else - protecting the environment and climate, reducing inequality repealing some taxes on the rich, tax cuts for normal Americans, Medicare improvements, and more.

Republicans have done absolutely nothing, and are trying to do absolutely nothing for the country. They are relying entirely on propaganda designed to try to manipulate voters with hot buttons lies about 'Joe Biden is senile' and 'CRT is being forced on your children' and 'protect all under-taxing of the rich', the trump cult, and the big lie that the election was stolen and defending the violent insurrection trump organized (and blocking investigation). That's it.

Republicans are offering absolutely nothing. What have they done for voters to deserve votes?

Here's a good article that may explain some of it. By no means all of it. What a lot of people who voted for Biden did so just to get rid of Trump. Not that they cared who that someone was who was to replace Trump was. Biden won what I would call the anti vote. Those folks who vote against a candidate, but not for any candidate. Biden won these people 68-30 over Trump. So a lot of Biden's votes weren't for him, just against Trump which showed in the down ballot offices where the GOP picked up 13 house seats, 2 state legislatures and a governorship.

Now a lot of people who actually voted for Biden, thought they were getting a moderate Democrat. A Joe Biden akin to what he was during his time in the senate and as VP. Not a progressive. But here, from the article.

Biden won the presidency last year by running as a centrist who dispelled the "socialist" label President Trump and other Republicans tried to pin on him. Moderate and independent voters put Biden over the top. But 10 months into Biden's presidency, Sanders and his band of leftists have sewn fresh concern in voters' minds about the party's big-government drift, which could directly threaten its hold on power.

Why the 'socialist' label sticks to Democrats

Liberal Democrats such as Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are out-shouting President Biden.

finance.yahoo.com

In other words or in plain English, a lot of voters haven't got what they thought they were voting for. Throw in the fact that the out of power party doesn't have to do a darn thing, just be there as an alternative.