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Define "rights".

Green Man said:
As I said, according to your belief system, people have no moral entitlement to anything.
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I have no belief system regarding rights. I simply observe reality and state the obvious. But I understand the necessity of those that do to see the rest of the world as needing one also to justify their own world view.
 
haymarket said:
I cannot believe or not believe in something that I do not even know what it is.
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You deny that people have moral entitlements, so obviously you know what they are.

As I said, according to your belief system, people don't have moral entitlements, such as to life, liberty, and property.
 
haymarket said:
I cannot believe or not believe in something that I do not even know what it is.
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That's your problem, Haymarket, you cannot see beyond the 5 senses. You are trapped in what you can see, hear, smell, taste, or touch. One of these days you will have a self-awakening, perhaps on your death bed! Then you won't think morals, and belief in a higher intelligence (i.e. God) is a bunch of hullabuloo, fairy tale nonsense.
 
Fisher said:
"that which does not exist, but people feel better believing that they do. See Santa Clause, Easter Bunny"
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Now, rights don't really exist outside of our imaginations? That is utter stupidity! Rights are given to us by our Creator, and we understand that we have them ("We hold these truths to be self evident").
 
haymarket said:
You need a better history book my friend.

THE US Constitution was ratified on September 13 1788. It contained NO Amendments.

The Bill of Rights - the first ten Amendments to the Constitution were ratified as announced by Thomas Jefferson on March 1, 1792 - two and one half years later.

The Constitution has been amended 27 times over its life. Not 17 times since its ratification as you wrongly claimed.

The hypocrisy of the Framers in the Dec of Ind is a separate issue from the strengths of the Constitution. Please do not confuse the two.
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Perhaps you are right on when the Bill of Rights was placed in the Constitution. Still, If the Constitution has been changed only 27 times in 200 plus years, that makes it a Document worthy of great merit, and not a bunch of words that a bunch of hypocrites dreamed up but did not believe. The Constitution is connected to the Declaration, as it elaborates on the basic truths that Thomas Jefferson revealed: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I do not confuse the two.
 
Green Man said:
You deny that people have moral entitlements, so obviously you know what they are.

As I said, according to your belief system, people don't have moral entitlements, such as to life, liberty, and property.
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All I am doing is observing the real world and how things happen. That requires no belief in anything.
 
chuck71 said:
That's your problem, Haymarket, you cannot see beyond the 5 senses. You are trapped in what you can see, hear, smell, taste, or touch. One of these days you will have a self-awakening, perhaps on your death bed! Then you won't think morals, and belief in a higher intelligence (i.e. God) is a bunch of hullabuloo, fairy tale nonsense.
Click to expand...

What makes you think I do not believe in a god or God?
 
chuck71 said:
Perhaps you are right on when the Bill of Rights was placed in the Constitution. Still, If the Constitution has been changed only 27 times in 200 plus years, that makes it a Document worthy of great merit, and not a bunch of words that a bunch of hypocrites dreamed up but did not believe. The Constitution is connected to the Declaration, as it elaborates on the basic truths that Thomas Jefferson revealed: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I do not confuse the two.
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I agree that it is a document of great merit. One of the greatest in my humble opinion.

And that makes it even more sad that so many of the Founders were hypocrites living a lie.
 
ecofarm said:
:cuckoo:
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As expected - you got nuthin. :doh:roll::mrgreen:

Of course, that has always been the case with you and there is not a reason why you would change from past practice.
 
haymarket said:
Here are the sources for the statements I have made:

United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FACT:

FACT:

United States Bill of Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FACT:


The facts are as I have been stating them.
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September 11, 1786 Annapolis Convention begins
October 11, 1786 Congress of the Confederation creates committee to review report of the Annapolis Convention
November 23, 1786 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention is authorized – Virginia
November 23, 1786 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – New Jersey
December 4, 1786 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Virginia
December 30, 1786 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Pennsylvania
January 6, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – North Carolina
January 17, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – New Hampshire
February 3, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Delaware
February 10, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Georgia
February 21, 1787 Congress resolves in favor of a constitutional convention
February 26,1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention is authorized – Massachusetts
February 28, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention is authorized – New York
March 3, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Massachusetts
March 6, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – New York
March 8, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – South Carolina
March 14, 1787 Rhode Island declines to elect delegates to Philadelphia Convention
April 23, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Maryland
May 5, 1787 Rhode Island declines to elect delegates to Philadelphia Convention (2nd time)
May 14, 1787 First meeting of Philadelphia Convention – no quorum present
May 14, 1787 Election of delegates to Philadelphia Convention – Connecticut
May 25, 1787 Convention meets with quorum for first time
May 29, 1787 Virginia Plan presented to Convention by Edmund Randolph[1]
June 11, 1787 Connecticut Compromise proposed to Convention by Roger Sherman[2]
June 15, 1787 New Jersey Plan presented to Convention by William Paterson[3]
June 16, 1787 Rhode Island declines to elect delegates to Philadelphia Convention (3rd time)
June 23, 1787 Convention establishes the Committee of Detail chaired by John Rutledge[4] The Committee of Detail was formed to put down a draft text reflecting the agreements made by the Convention up to that point.
September 8, 1787 Convention establishes the Committee of Style chaired by William Samuel Johnson[5] The Committee of Style was formed to set down and revise the actual text of the Constitution
September 17, 1787 Proposed Constitution signed; Convention adjourns indefinitely
September 20, 1787 The proposed Constitution is read in Congress of the Confederation
September 26, 1787 Congress takes up debate on the proposed Constitution
September 28, 1787 Congress of the Confederation refers the proposed Constitution to the states
September 28, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Pennsylvania
 
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haymarket said:
All I am doing is observing the real world and how things happen. That requires no belief in anything.
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You are doing more than observe. You are sharing your opinion that you don't believe that people are morally entitled to certain things, such as life, liberty, and property.
 
Green Man said:
You are doing more than observe. You are sharing your opinion that you don't believe that people are morally entitled to certain things, such as life, liberty, and property.
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Not believing in something based on faith is not a belief itself.
 
haymarket said:
Not believing in something based on faith is not a belief itself.
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I have no idea what that means, or what faith has to do with any of this.

As I said, you are of the opinion that people aren't morally entitled to certain things, such as life, liberty, or property.
 
Green Man said:
I have no idea what that means, or what faith has to do with any of this.
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It means that me not sharing your faith is not a belief in anything. Your faith is indeed a belief - but me not sharing is not.
 
haymarket said:
so what? :doh Nothing on that laundry list refutes the facts I provided for you.
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October 17, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Connecticut
October 25, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Massachusetts
October 26, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Georgia
October 27, 1787 First Federalist Paper appears[6]
October 31, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Virginia
November 1, 1787 State convention for ratification called – New Jersey
November 6, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – Pennsylvania
November 8, 1787 The first Federal Farmer pamphlet appears in New York[7]
November 10, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Delaware
November 12, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – Connecticut
November 19, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – Massachusetts
November 20, 1787 Ratifying convention begins – Pennsylvania
November 26, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – Delaware
November 27, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Maryland
November 27, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – New Jersey
December 3, 1787 Ratifying convention begins – Delaware
December 4, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – Georgia
December 6, 1787 State convention for ratification called – North Carolina
December 7, 1787 Constitution is ratified – Delaware Unanimous vote - 30-0
December 11, 1787 Ratifying convention begins – New Jersey
December 12, 1787 Constitution is ratified – Pennsylvania Vote 46-23
December 14, 1787 State convention for ratification called – New Hampshire
December 18, 1787 Constitution is ratified – New Jersey Unanimous vote - 38-0
December 18, 1787 Pennsylvania convention minority publishes their "Dissent"[8]
December 25, 1787 Ratifying convention begins – Georgia
December 31, 1787 Delegates to state convention elected – New Hampshire
January 2, 1788 Constitution is ratified – Georgia Unanimous vote - 26-0
January 3, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – Connecticut
January 9, 1788 Constitution is ratified – Connecticut Vote 128-40
January 9, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – Massachusetts
January 19, 1788 State convention for ratification called – South Carolina
February 1, 1788 State convention for ratification called – New York
February 6, 1788 Constitution is ratified – Massachusetts Vote 187-168
February 13, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – New Hampshire (first session) The first session ends February 22
March 1, 1788 Rhode Island calls for popular referendum on the proposed Constitution
March 3, 1788 Delegates to state convention elected – Virginia
March 24, 1788 Rhode Island votes down Constitution in referendum
March 28, 1788 Delegates to state convention elected – North Carolina
April 7, 1788 Delegates to state convention elected – Maryland
April 11, 1788 Delegates to state convention elected – South Carolina
April 21, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – Maryland
April 28, 1788 Constitution is ratified – Maryland Vote 63-11
April 29, 1788 Delegates to state convention elected – New York
May 12, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – South Carolina
May 23, 1788 Constitution is ratified – South Carolina Vote 149-73
June 2, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – Virginia
June 17, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – New York
June 18, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – New Hampshire (second session)
June 21, 1788 Constitution is ratified – New Hampshire Vote 57-47
June 21, 1788 Constitution is now established by the ratification of nine states
June 25, 1788 Constitution is ratified – Virginia Vote 89-79
July 2, 1788 Congress of the Confederation creates a committee to put the new government into operation
July 21, 1788 Ratifying convention begins – North Carolina (first convention)
July 26, 1788 Constitution is ratified – New York Vote 30-27
August 2, 1788 First North Carolina convention refuses to ratify Constitution without amendments
September 13, 1788 Congress of the Confederation sets date for first meeting of the new government and the Presidential election
November 30, 1788 Second state convention for ratification called – North Carolina
March 4, 1789 First Congress of the United States of America is seated
April 30, 1789 George Washington is inaugurated as the first President of the United States
August 21, 1789 Delegates to state convention elected – North Carolina
September 26, 1789 Congress of the United States sends twelve amendments to the Constitution to the states for ratification. The last ten were eventually enacted as the Bill of Rights.
November 16, 1789 Ratifying convention begins – North Carolina (second convention)
November 21, 1789 Constitution is ratified – North Carolina Vote 194-77
January 17, 1790 State convention for ratification called – Rhode Island
February 8, 1790 Delegates to state convention elected – Rhode Island
March 1, 1790 Ratifying convention begins – Rhode Island (first session) First session ends March 6
May 24, 1790 Ratifying convention begins – Rhode Island (second session)
May 29, 1790 Constitution is ratified – Rhode Island Vote 34-32
October 17, 1790 Treaty signed between New York and Vermont, paving the way for the latter's admission to the Union
October 27, 1790 State convention for ratification called – Vermont
December 4, 1790 Delegates to state convention elected – Vermont
January 9, 1791 Ratifying convention begins – Vermont
January 10, 1791 Constitution is ratified – Vermont Vote 108-5
December 15, 1791 Bill of Rights comes into force on ratification by Virginia
 
haymarket said:
It means that me not sharing your faith is not a belief in anything. Your faith is indeed a belief - but me not sharing is not.
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I have no idea to what faith you are referring.

We have a difference of opinion. Faith has nothing to do with it. I am of the opinion that people are morally entitled to life, liberty, and property. You are of the opinion that they aren't.
 
The Constitution is Ratified: This Day in History, June 21

On June 21, 1788, the U.S. Constitution is officially ratified and becomes the Supreme Law of the Land.

The Constitution is Ratified: This Day in History, June 21 | Alternative




The U.S. Constitution, is the oldest national constitution in continuous use. It was signed in September 1787 after four difficult months spent drafting and debating it. But signing wasn’t enough; the new Constitution had to be ratified by nine of the 13 states before it became binding. That happened when New Hampshire ratified it on June 21, 1788 — 224 years ago.

Ratification had been far from a sure thing. The new Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation, which had been adopted during the Revolutionary War. Supporters of the Constitution, the Federalists, favored a strong federal government, while opponents, the Anti-Federalists, thought it gave the central government too much power. There were bitter struggles in many of the states, but the Federalists were better organized and they won the day.

In order to obtain ratification in several important states, the Federalists promised to add amendments to the Constitution guaranteeing the basic rights of citizens. The amendments they wrote came into effect in December 1791 and are known as the Bill of Rights.

Read more: The Day the U.S. Constitution Was Ratified | IIP Digital <---------------U.S. GOVERNMENT WEB SITE
 
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ernst barkmann said:
October 17, 1787 State convention for ratification called – Connecticut
[/B]
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Lets try this in a far more simpler way:

1- what statements of mine are you taking issue with as factually wrong?
2- which items on your list do you think show that these statements of mine are factually wrong?
 
haymarket said:
A belief not based in science or real world observation or verifiable evidence is based upon faith.
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So your opinion that people are not morally entitled to such things as life, liberty, and property is based upon faith?
 
haymarket said:
Lets try this in a far more simpler way:

1- what statements of mine are you taking issue with as factually wrong?
Click to expand...

THE US Constitution was ratified on September 13 1788. It contained NO Amendments
Click to expand...

The Bill of Rights - the first ten Amendments to the Constitution were ratified as announced by Thomas Jefferson on March 1, 1792 - two and one half years later.
Click to expand...



The U.S. Constitution, is the oldest national constitution in continuous use. It was signed in September 1787 after four difficult months spent drafting and debating it. But signing wasn’t enough; the new Constitution had to be ratified by nine of the 13 states before it became binding. That happened when New Hampshire ratified it on June 21, 1788 — 224 years ago.

Ratification had been far from a sure thing. The new Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation, which had been adopted during the Revolutionary War. Supporters of the Constitution, the Federalists, favored a strong federal government, while opponents, the Anti-Federalists, thought it gave the central government too much power. There were bitter struggles in many of the states, but the Federalists were better organized and they won the day.

In order to obtain ratification in several important states, the Federalists promised to add amendments to the Constitution guaranteeing the basic rights of citizens. The amendments they wrote came into effect in December 1791 and are known as the Bill of Rights.

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/inbrief/2012/06/201206217872.html#ixzz2lgc0cULU <---------------U.S. GOVERNMENT WEB SITE


June 21 1788....... to ........December 15 1791 = 3 years 6 months.










haymarket said:
2- which items on your list do you think show that these statements of mine are factually wrong?
Click to expand...

this is just a rewording of #1 and asking from the list i posted.


June 21, 1788 Constitution is now established by the ratification of nine states

December 15, 1791 Bill of Rights comes into force on ratification by Virginia
 
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