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Deep Cuts’ Coming to U.S. Army

It's a start and I support these cuts. I just hope the same zeal is shown when cutting the rest of the budget.
 
Moon said:
It's a start and I support these cuts. I just hope the same zeal is shown when cutting the rest of the budget.
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I wouldn't hold my breath. more likely, these cuts will be used to increase spending in other areas of the budget.
 
captainawesome said:
People die in war.
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For sure...and every soldier understand and accepts, to some degree, that reality. What they don't accept...and what the American people should be ashamed to say they accept...is cutting the things that keep our soldiers alive.
 
Moon said:
It's a start and I support these cuts. I just hope the same zeal is shown when cutting the rest of the budget.
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The problem is...it's the wrong start.

Democrats love to cut the military. They love to make empty promises to cut the rest of the government. We end up with a weak military and a bloated, over-powerful government. It's time to turn that around. Cut the bulk of the government...especially the entitlements...BEFORE touching the military.
 
OscarB63 said:
I wouldn't hold my breath. more likely, these cuts will be used to increase spending in other areas of the budget.
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Let's hope we do spend more on infrastructure, education, health and other things that result in a modern productive society -- all neglected under Bush's misrule.
 
Mycroft said:
The problem is...it's the wrong start.

Democrats love to cut the military. They love to make empty promises to cut the rest of the government. We end up with a weak military and a bloated, over-powerful government. It's time to turn that around. Cut the bulk of the government...especially the entitlements...BEFORE touching the military.
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Yeah, because the dead weight of a 20th century military is so important in a 21st century world -- unlike health and education and infrastructure.
 
ernst barkmann said:
article 1 section 8 of the u.s. constitution... "To provide and maintain a Navy
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Art 1 Sec 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
 
head of joaquin said:
Art 1 Sec 8: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
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Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States,


do you see education or health.....no!
 
ernst barkmann said:
it does not.

when it was under the army, it was legal but in 1947 the congress did not seek lawful authority to create such an institution.
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So why aren't you lobbying to get rid of the Air Force, this illegal institution of ours? It costs a fortune.
 
ernst barkmann said:
Section. 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States,


do you see education or health.....no!
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"general Welfare "

I don't see machine guns, revolvers, or border patrol either.
 
Mycroft said:
The problem is...it's the wrong start.

Democrats love to cut the military. They love to make empty promises to cut the rest of the government. We end up with a weak military and a bloated, over-powerful government. It's time to turn that around. Cut the bulk of the government...especially the entitlements...BEFORE touching the military.
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At this point, any start is a good one. This shouldn't reduce our military's ability to defend us. We need to keep pushing to reduce other spending.
 
head of joaquin said:
"general Welfare "

I don't see machine guns or border patrol either.
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general welfare...(HERE is the general welfare below)


1The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

2To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

3To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

4To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

5To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

6To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

7To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

8To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

9To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

10To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

11To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

12To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

13To provide and maintain a Navy;

14To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

15To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

16To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

17To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

18To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States,

“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83


“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798


machine guns are materiel goods not a power, the u.s. is not in the machine gun business, the u.s. government has no authority to regulate firearms.

immigration ....border patrol is a state power.
 
head of joaquin said:
Yeah, because the dead weight of a 20th century military is so important in a 21st century world -- unlike health and education and infrastructure.
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The military is a Constitutionally mandated responsibility...unlike health, education and infrastructure, which rightfully belong to the State or the Individual.

But, of course, those of your ilk won't be happy unless the Constitution is completely turned on it's head, stuck in the sand...with only it's ass hanging out for any other country to shoot at.
 
notquiteright said:
Oh I did not wish to imply I want to do away with all nuke subs, no Sir, I meant the development of extremely expensive program that then go begging for a role, post cold war. The SeaWolf and F35 come to mind. seems sometimes the IM complex loves expense and technology just for the sake of it.

While subs look more like 'em, Aircraft Carriers act more like national penises. In many places two carriers parked off the coast suddenly become THE largest Air Force in the region, sometimes larger than ALL the Air Forces of that region.

The question on carriers is do we really need so many to defend the nation or do we use so many to enforce the Empire?
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We only made three Seawolf subs - the newer class is significantly less expensive Virginia class.

And again, I think we should get rid of our carriers. They're powerful - "national penises" is apropos - but they're just too doggone vulnerable. They're the closest thing to 'unsinkable' in human history - I mean, the watertight compartmentation is such that you could slice one in half sideways and both sides would likely still float. Problem is, like I said above, all it takes is a bit of asymmetric warfare to put one out of action for weeks or months.

Get rid of them - and by doing so, get rid of the equally-prohibitively-expensive carrier air wings and the maintenance industries for both of them - and use the savings for national infrastructure instead. There's not much a carrier group can do that an MEF group can't do, thanks to the upgrades we've made over the past couple decades in destroyers and cruisers...and when it comes to maritime supremacy, the subs are the key.

I will say this, though - the reason we needs so many subs is because at any one time, maybe one-third are underway or ready to do so within 24 hours. The rest are in overhaul or maintenance of one sort or another. This same ratio - with some variation - applies to all Naval vessels. The next DD class should improve that ratio somewhat.

And I agree with you on the F35 - what a charlie-fox!
 
The United States simply can no longer afford to spend anywhere near what she presently does on her military.

America's economy is slowly being passed by China's - that is where America should spend her energy on. Not running around the world trying to force people to act as America wishes...and getting lots of brave American's (along with lots and lots of foreign civilians directly/indirectly) killed in the process.

The founding fathers had the right idea...a small peace time army with a vast militia backing it up.

And I am not getting into some silly argument about this...for WHATEVER the argument is against it, it's wrong.


America cannot afford anywhere near it's present level of military spending...period.

Additionally, she has no business trying to maintain an empire or policing the world.

Bring all the troops home, close all foreign bases, end all military handouts to other nations and cut the defence budget in 1/2 (in that order).


The military industrial establishment must be controlled.

It is there to serve America - not the other way around.
 
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DA60 said:
The United States simply can no longer afford to spend anywhere near what she presently does on her military.

America's economy is slowly being passed by China's - that is where America should spend her energy on. Not running around the world trying to force people to act as America wishes...and getting lots of brave American's (along with lots and lots of foreign civilians directly/indirectly) killed in the process.

The founding fathers had the right idea...a small peace time army with a vast militia backing it up.

And I am not getting into some silly argument about this...for WHATEVER the argument is against it, it's wrong.


America cannot afford anywhere near it's present level of military spending...period.

Additionally, she has no business trying to maintain an empire or policing the world.

Bring all the troops home, close all foreign bases, end all military handouts to other nations and cut the defence budget in 1/2 (in that order).


The military industrial establishment must be controlled.

It is there to serve America - not the other way around.
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If you replaced all your references to the military with references to entitlements and to our out of control big government, you would be making a better case. The fact is, our Founding Fathers wrote into the Constitution the mandate to have an Army...to protect our country. They didn't write in all the other crap we've decided to spend money on. Get rid of the crap first...then consider reducing the military.
 
Mycroft said:
If you replaced all your references to the military with references to entitlements and to our out of control big government, you would be making a better case. The fact is, our Founding Fathers wrote into the Constitution the mandate to have an Army...to protect our country. They didn't write in all the other crap we've decided to spend money on. Get rid of the crap first...then consider reducing the military.
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Cut both.

Unless you can provide links to unbiased, factual proof that America requires the present level of military expenditure, then the military budget should be cut.

You don't spend trillions of dollars without first proving the need to do so.

And so far, I have seen no one in this thread prove (using links to facts from unbiased sources) that America needs (not wants - needs) to spend this much money on her military to protect it's sovereignty.
 
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DA60 said:
Cut both.

Unless you can provide links to unbiased, factual proof that America requires the present level of military expenditure, then the military budget should be cut.

You don't spend trillions of dollars without first proving the need to do so.

And so far, I have seen no one in this thread prove (using links to facts from unbiased sources) that America needs (not wants - needs) to spend this much money on her military to protect it's sovereignty.
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The problem with anyone who says "cut both" is that they are living in a fantasy world. The Republicans might be induced to cut both, but the Democrats never will. Sure...they'll SAY they will cut both, but when it comes time to put the rubber to the road, all they do is cut the military...and then they increase spending on entitlements and all the rest.

We've been down that road before and it's a fool who believes the Democrats will do anything differently this time around. No...it's time to reverse things. It's time to cut big government and big entitlements. THEN, think about cutting the military.
 
Mycroft said:
The problem with anyone who says "cut both" is that they are living in a fantasy world. The Republicans might be induced to cut both, but the Democrats never will. Sure...they'll SAY they will cut both, but when it comes time to put the rubber to the road, all they do is cut the military...and then they increase spending on entitlements and all the rest.

We've been down that road before and it's a fool who believes the Democrats will do anything differently this time around. No...it's time to reverse things. It's time to cut big government and big entitlements. THEN, think about cutting the military.
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Until you (or ANYONE) can provide links to unbiased, factual proof that the military budget NEEDS to be as big as it is today...then I don't really care what you (or almost anyone else) believes on this.

I am interested in proven facts...not endless rhetoric.


Have a nice day.
 
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