Dearborn anti-Kamala fools played themselves, final chapter (2 Viewers)

[Phys251]

What part of 'they had no good options' isn't clear? They could vote for Harris and endorse ongoing genocide. They could vote for trump and get worse genocide. Will you ever be able to drop the nonsense about 'how's that working for you' and learn that what's 'not working for them' is that both parties are committing genocide and so they refused to vote for either, and you should worry more about the genocide side of the issue?

For someone who has as much interest in I/P as you do, I figured that you would have understood the mechanisms of our support for Israel better.

And where are all the Palestine protesters now? They seem awfully quiet against tRump.

 

[Dans La Lune]

@StillBallin75 is spitting fire in this thread. Maybe you should listen to him.

Biden / Kamala / Dems could have done the bare minimum and won the election. Imagine how corrupted by special interests and indifferent to human suffering you have to be to sacrifice the presidency to a fascist.

 

[Tettsuo]

@StillBallin75 is spitting fire in this thread. Maybe you should listen to him.

Biden / Kamala / Dems could have done the bare minimum and won the election. Imagine how corrupted by special interests and indifferent to human suffering you have to be to sacrifice the presidency to a fascist.

I actually believe that Kamala was stuck between a rock and a hard place on the Gaza issue. She didn't want to contradict Biden, she was still the VP after all. But, I do believe she wanted to.

Of course, I have no evidence for this other than the rarity that a VP will directly go against their president on an issue.

 

[StillBallin75]

I REALLY REALLY REALLY need libs/Dems to understand that opposing/defeating fascism means ACTUALLY BEING ANTI FASCIST. It does not mean supporting the Neville-Chamberlain-ass do-nothing morally spineless sorry excuse of an "opposition party" no matter what.

The reason we literally have fascism right now is because Democrats, in their quest to win elections at all costs while not actually having any moral principles, keep allowing themselves to be ratcheted to the right. The modern Democratic Party is now TO THE RIGHT OF REAGAN on issues like immigration and Israel. The apparatus that Trump is using to go after immigrants and dissidents?? Literally built by Clinton/Bush/Obama.

The fact that people STILL haven't learned a goddamn thing while some of you are gloating about genocide is why we on the left have a little saying, "Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds."

 

[StillBallin75]

I actually believe that Kamala was stuck between a rock and a hard place on the Gaza issue. She didn't want to contradict Biden, she was still the VP after all. But, I do believe she wanted to.

Of course, I have no evidence for this other than the rarity that a VP will directly go against their president on an issue.

You're giving them too much grace. If Kamala had wanted to stop the genocide she would have at the very least PUSHED BIDEN FOR AN ARMS EMBARGO while both of them were still in office. The fact that the Biden Administration continued to assist Israel's genocide every day between Election Night 2024 and Inauguration Day 2025 tells you everything you need to know.

Not only did the Democratic establishment lose while doing the wrong thing, (when they could have won and done the right thing), they refused to stop doing it for 3 more months even when the electoral stakes were over.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

The US is a full partner in the genocide, providing funds, weapons, political support and diplomatic supporting, preventing the UN from acting. Metaphorically, if someone is machine gunning victims, and someone else brought them bullets to do it, they're both guilty, they're partners. Trying to split hairs over that is not a winning argument.

Um, you moved the goalpost, your point was the Biden admin supposedly supported Israel's genocide in Gaza. The admin condemned Israel's actions in Gaza, pushed for more food, created an artificial dock to move more supplies into Gaza. The US has supported Israel since its inception, and using it as a launch point, a big aircraft carrier for regional strategy, but to say that the Biden admin supported genocide is false, Israel has been doing this as a matter of their own policy. Now, if you were fair, I would see this criticisms of the 2 Trump admins where you have the same vitriol directed to him....and I searched, I couldn't find much.

 

[Tettsuo]

You're giving them too much grace. If Kamala had wanted to stop the genocide she would have at the very least PUSHED BIDEN FOR AN ARMS EMBARGO while both of them were still in office. The fact that the Biden Administration continued to assist Israel's genocide every day between Election Night 2024 and Inauguration Day 2025 tells you everything you need to know.

Not only did the Democratic establishment lose while doing the wrong thing, (when they could have won and done the right thing), they refused to stop doing it for 3 more months even when the electoral stakes were over.

I get your point, but we've no idea what pushing was going on behind the scenes. We're only shown the unified message from the VP and President, never the inside debates.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

If you were right, I'd love to agree. Any shift by Harris was so minor it was hard to detect. She would not meet with anti-genocide people, had none in her campaign, refused to allow any to endorse her at the convention, and fully supported the ongoing Biden policies. trump attacking her as pro-Hamas is meaningless lies, he lied about her on many things. He called Biden, the biggest recipient of AIPAC money in history, a Palestinian.

Like I said, I don't see the same vitriol directed to either Trump admin over Israel's dealings with Gaza, so I'm afraid you are just horribly biased.

 

[Craig234]

Um, you moved the goalpost, your point was the Biden admin supposedly supported Israel's genocide in Gaza. The admin condemned Israel's actions in Gaza, pushed for more food, created an artificial dock to move more supplies into Gaza. The US has supported Israel since its inception, and using it as a launch point, a big aircraft carrier for regional strategy, but to say that the Biden admin supported genocide is false, Israel has been doing this as a matter of their own policy. Now, if you were fair, I would see this criticisms of the 2 Trump admins where you have the same vitriol directed to him....and I searched, I couldn't find much.

I did not move goalposts. You seem unable to see through the flimsiest of lies of Biden saying some things for politics/public relations that were obvious lies contradicted by his actions. It would be a long post but are clearly uninformed of the history of Biden totally supporting genocide. You could start with a list of things like Biden talking about not allowing an invasion of Rafah or requiring food and doing nothing when it wasn't.,

If you didn't find my saying as bad or worse about trump, you didn't look much. The topics about Biden and Harris have gotten much more discussion because of people's opinions, and widespread agreement of trump being worse, but I'll repeat what I said today again so it's clear to you, trump is even worse than Genocide Joe. trump IMO has zero respect for the Palestinian lives or morality or law.

 

[poppopfox]

Stupid position.

You faulted the lessor of two evils and got the worse of the two.

Sad so many are paying the price.

Will you ever learn?

Triggered an old memory -

 

[Craig234]

Like I said, I don't see the same vitriol directed to either Trump admin over Israel's dealings with Gaza, so I'm afraid you are just horribly biased.

Read post 134, and see if helps inform you.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Harris was more strident against Israel's actions in Gaza than Biden, even the GOP Trump backers were consistently critical of Harris claiming she supported Hamas and failed to support Bibi.

Kamala said she wouldn't do or have done anything differently than Biden. She also spread lies about October 7th that have demonstrably facilitated the genocide.

 

[Dans La Lune]

People who can't tell the difference between Kamala Harris and Sebastian Gorka cannot be reached.

People who think the genocide started after Kamala lost were never invested in the issue to begin with.

 

[Diving Mullah]

Gee, sounds like the Biden Harris administration should have taken any meaningful stance to oppose Israel instead of happily supporting the mass murder campaign

Given they didn’t, the pretense that they would tolerate such a campaign is laughable

The big difference is US AID!

With Kamal, she may not have stood up to Israel (although I think from back channel would have worked out something) but at least provided food for the millions of displaced refugees.

With Trump, we are cheering Israel, displacing the Palestinians and let them starve!

Which of these two evil do you prefer?

Diving Mullah

 

[Hamish Howl]

People who think the genocide started after Kamala lost were never invested in the issue to begin with.

So you think Harris was as bad as Sebastian Gorka?

For real?

 

[Craig234]

I actually believe that Kamala was stuck between a rock and a hard place on the Gaza issue. She didn't want to contradict Biden, she was still the VP after all. But, I do believe she wanted to.

Of course, I have no evidence for this other than the rarity that a VP will directly go against their president on an issue.

It's a remarkable parallel to LBJ and Humphrey in 1968, even down to a lying Republican candidate pretending to be the anti-war candidate.

But I see no evidence for Harris being much better than Biden, or deserving credit for being better. She was 'between a rock and a hard place' given the power of the rogue state lobby, but that doesn't changed that she picked the side of genocide.

 

[Hamish Howl]

The big difference is US AID!

With Kamal, she may not have stood up to Israel (although I think from back channel would have worked out something) but at least provided food for the millions of displaced refugees.

With Trump, we are cheering Israel, displacing the Palestinians and let them starve!

Which of these two evil do you prefer?

Diving Mullah

He's a prog.

He is served by the worst possible outcome for the people he supposedly gives a shit about.

 

[Dans La Lune]

So you think Harris was as bad as Sebastian Gorka?

For real?

When did the genocide start? The famine? The 'retail killing' of Palestinians?

 

[Craig234]

For someone who has as much interest in I/P as you do, I figured that you would have understood the mechanisms of our support for Israel better.

Explain what you are talking about, it's empty without substance.

And where are all the Palestine protesters now? They seem awfully quiet against tRump.

The playbook Trump is following to deport protesters

The authors of Project 2025 are at it again with Project Esther, a plan that’s supposedly about fighting antisemitism.

www.vox.com

 

[Phys251]

Explain what you are talking about, it's empty without substance.

Do you really need me to spell it out for you? You know how much AIPAC controls our political process. Neuter them and we've got a fighting chance to effect real change against Israel.

That's a media thing, not a protester thing IMO. The media rarely paid attention to them for a year of genocide, until the election, and are not paying attention again. I think their opposition to trump is continuing as strong and stronger than with Biden.

Could be. But from my point-of-view, I'm not seeing as many pro-Palestinian protests.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

I did not move goalposts.

Yes, you did, you shifted from Trump/Biden/Harris...to.....a general comment about US policy on Israel.

You seem unable to see through the flimsiest of lies of Biden saying some things for politics/public relations that were obvious lies contradicted by his actions. It would be a long post but are clearly uninformed of the history of Biden totally supporting genocide. You could start with a list of things like Biden talking about not allowing an invasion of Rafah or requiring food and doing nothing when it wasn't.,

If you didn't find my saying as bad or worse about trump, you didn't look much.

No, I did 2 searches, I can't find any real criticism of Trump on Gaza...and the tell is...you did not cite any.

The topics about Biden and Harris have gotten much more discussion because of people's opinions, and widespread agreement of trump being worse, but I'll repeat what I said today again so it's clear to you, trump is even worse than Genocide Joe. trump IMO has zero respect for the Palestinian lives or morality or law.

And yet, your criticism is so much more against Harris, who had no real influence ever on US policy (other than leg votes) whereas Don is in his 2nd admin as POTUS. The genocide as you agreed has been going on for a long time....but your wrath is overwhelmingly directed at...Harris and Biden, to where you place them as responsible.

You know, or should know how much I absolutely hate what Israel has done in Gaza and the WB since '48. I can't even go into the ME forum or watch much news about this topic, it is just way too depressing, but your position is really unfair.

 

[Craig234]

Yes, you did, you shifted from Trump/Biden/Harris...to.....a general comment about US policy on Israel.

No, if you misunderstood something, you need to post quotes.

No, I did 2 searches, I can't find any real criticism of Trump on Gaza...and the tell is...you did not cite any.

I stated my position in the post for you clearly. That you ignore that shows you are not acting in good faith and not interested in the truth.

And yet, your criticism is so much more against Harris, who had no real influence ever on US policy (other than leg votes) whereas Don is in his 2nd admin as POTUS. The genocide as you agreed has been going on for a long time....but your wrath is overwhelmingly directed at...Harris and Biden, to where you place them as responsible.

No, my criticism has always been stronger of trump, including during the election when I explained that I found a way to get a swing state voter who couldn't stand to vote for Harris or trump, to vote for Harris. You're confusing the topic if Biden and Harris getting more discussion, with who is more strongly condemned.

You know, or should know how much I absolutely hate what Israel has done in Gaza and the WB since '48. I can't even go into the ME forum or watch much news about this topic, it is just way too depressing, but your position is really unfair.

I'm glad we agree about the history. We might disagree about the issue of how much to blame the opponents of genocide who didn't want to vote for Harris or trump. Or you might misunderstand my position somewhat also.

 

[Dans La Lune]

Do you really need me to spell it out for you? You know how much AIPAC controls our political process. Neuter them and we've got a fighting chance to effect real change against Israel.

*Psst. Here's the plan. We arm Israel and lure them into a false sense of security, as they slaughter tens of thousands of Palestinians, include the systematic slaughter of chidlren. We do this while we lie on behalf of Israel and give them the predicate to commit genocide. We don't lift a finger to stop them. Then, once Kamala gets elected, we pull the carpet out from under them and prove we were the good guys all along!*

You sound ridiculous.

Could be. But from my point-of-view, I'm not seeing as many pro-Palestinian protests.

Dems also gave Trump the predicate to crack down on student protests.

 

[Craig234]

Do you really need me to spell it out for you? You know how much AIPAC controls our political process. Neuter them and we've got a fighting chance to effect real change against Israel.

Absolutely. I don't know what your comment is about that I said anything different than that. I explicitly just said that, I think multiple times.

Could be. But from my point-of-view, I'm not seeing as many pro-Palestinian protests.

We're not. But a war by the government has been launched against them. I don't think the opinions of the pro-Palestinian and anti-genocide people support trump any more than Biden.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Kamala said she wouldn't do or have done anything differently than Biden. She also spread lies about October 7th that have demonstrably facilitated the genocide.

First off, that was a general comment on The View, it was not specific to any policy, that is not a show for serious discussion. I did a search for your criticisms of Trump and Gaza, and like craig, there just isn't any to speak of and most of recent posts follow the same line of full-on criticism of Biden/Harris and excuses for Don. I always find it weird when folks are more critical of those on their side than their assumed opposition.