Dealing with the IRS

[Lutherf]

As we all know, the IRS is going to the the point agency for determining the amount of and collecting penalties and/or subsidies related to the ACA. These calculations will be based on information that your employers, fund managers and others will be reporting to the IRS as well as what you report yourself.

So, just how effective is the IRS in putting all this data together and coming up with the right answer? Well, to be fair, I'd have to say it's rather hit or miss and when they miss it can be mighty entertaining.

Take this example from the top of my in box today:

The taxpayer received a notice that they failed to include a pension distribution on their 2011 return. The IRS letter stated who the distribution was issued by, the amount of the distribution and the increase in tax due. All of this was correct.

The letter also noted that a certain amount of tax had been withheld from this distribution. It did not, however include that amount in the calculation for the amount of tax due. I want to be extra clear on this so, for example, the letter said that the taxpayer failed to include $10,000 of income which resulted in a tax increase of $2,000. It also said that the taxpayer had $1,500 of tax withheld on that $10k. So, in theory, the math would work out to $500 more that the taxpayer owed, right? $2000 more tax less $1500 withheld works out to $500 owed.....right?

Well, the letter says they owe $2000.

I can understand that. Everyone makes mistakes. So a while back I wrote them a letter explaining the situation and the math.

Today I got the reply (8 weeks after sending the first letter). The gist of that letter........? "The notice does reflect the additional federal withholding. It's right there below the amount of tax increase."

Well great googley moogley!! I know it's on the letter!! I told you guys that in my reply! The problem is that it's not factored into the amount due!!!! You people are the ones in charge of how much tax I owe and you can't even get this right!!??

Now, in all fairness, this level of stupid doesn't come up that often but it sure as hell has been getting worse over he past few years and I'm a little concerned that it's a sign of things to come. If we're going to be adding millions more returns to the system just for the ACA stuff this kind of thing could impact a hell of a lot of people.

Just a heads up folks. Just a heads up....if you get a notice from the IRS make sure you pay attention because there's a better than even chance it's going to be wrong.

 

[Summerwind]

As we all know, the IRS is going to the the point agency for determining the amount of and collecting penalties and/or subsidies related to the ACA. These calculations will be based on information that your employers, fund managers and others will be reporting to the IRS as well as what you report yourself.

So, just how effective is the IRS in putting all this data together and coming up with the right answer? Well, to be fair, I'd have to say it's rather hit or miss and when they miss it can be mighty entertaining.

Take this example from the top of my in box today:

The taxpayer received a notice that they failed to include a pension distribution on their 2011 return. The IRS letter stated who the distribution was issued by, the amount of the distribution and the increase in tax due. All of this was correct.

The letter also noted that a certain amount of tax had been withheld from this distribution. It did not, however include that amount in the calculation for the amount of tax due. I want to be extra clear on this so, for example, the letter said that the taxpayer failed to include $10,000 of income which resulted in a tax increase of $2,000. It also said that the taxpayer had $1,500 of tax withheld on that $10k. So, in theory, the math would work out to $500 more that the taxpayer owed, right? $2000 more tax less $1500 withheld works out to $500 owed.....right?

Well, the letter says they owe $2000.

I can understand that. Everyone makes mistakes. So a while back I wrote them a letter explaining the situation and the math.

Today I got the reply (8 weeks after sending the first letter). The gist of that letter........? "The notice does reflect the additional federal withholding. It's right there below the amount of tax increase."

Well great googley moogley!! I know it's on the letter!! I told you guys that in my reply! The problem is that it's not factored into the amount due!!!! You people are the ones in charge of how much tax I owe and you can't even get this right!!??

Now, in all fairness, this level of stupid doesn't come up that often but it sure as hell has been getting worse over he past few years and I'm a little concerned that it's a sign of things to come. If we're going to be adding millions more returns to the system just for the ACA stuff this kind of thing could impact a hell of a lot of people.

Just a heads up folks. Just a heads up....if you get a notice from the IRS make sure you pay attention because there's a better than even chance it's going to be wrong.

So you say and from what some other yokel says in an email??? Probably the guy just can't read effectively, IF any of this is even a tad true.

 

[Lutherf]

So you say and from what some other yokel says in an email??? Probably the guy just can't read effectively, IF any of this is even a tad true.

Let me guess....you work for them, don't you?

 

[Summerwind]

Let me guess....you work for them, don't you?

I wish. Having had to deal with them both as an accountant for major companies (where I was involved in three audits at four companies) and as a tax payer, I've never had a problem and they're always courteous and help with any issues I've had or the companies had, even at one company where the owner lied his ass off to them, but they went ahead and took him at his word and gave him the moon. His company owned over $30K in payroll taxes he decided never to pay, this was a small company more recent as opposed to the "major" companies I worked for in my youth, and they dropped it down to $10K for him because they believed his bs. So I don't know of the IRS that you, being 15 and never having ever actually dealt with anything akin to taxes, claim is ruining everyone's lives.

 

[Master PO]

time to end the IRS, and go to a consumption tax.

 

[Lutherf]

I wish. Having had to deal with them both as an accountant for major companies (where I was involved in three audits at four companies) and as a tax payer, I've never had a problem and they're always courteous and help with any issues I've had or the companies had, even at one company where the owner lied his ass off to them, but they went ahead and took him at his word and gave him the moon. His company owned over $30K in payroll taxes he decided never to pay, this was a small company more recent as opposed to the "major" companies I worked for in my youth, and they dropped it down to $10K for him because they believed his bs. So I don't know of the IRS that you, being 15 and never having ever actually dealt with anything akin to taxes, claim is ruining everyone's lives.

15 and never having dealt with taxes?

Well bless your heart!:lamo

 

[Winchester]

As we all know, the IRS is going to the the point agency for determining the amount of and collecting penalties and/or subsidies related to the ACA. These calculations will be based on information that your employers, fund managers and others will be reporting to the IRS as well as what you report yourself.

So, just how effective is the IRS in putting all this data together and coming up with the right answer? Well, to be fair, I'd have to say it's rather hit or miss and when they miss it can be mighty entertaining.

Take this example from the top of my in box today:

The taxpayer received a notice that they failed to include a pension distribution on their 2011 return. The IRS letter stated who the distribution was issued by, the amount of the distribution and the increase in tax due. All of this was correct.

The letter also noted that a certain amount of tax had been withheld from this distribution. It did not, however include that amount in the calculation for the amount of tax due. I want to be extra clear on this so, for example, the letter said that the taxpayer failed to include $10,000 of income which resulted in a tax increase of $2,000. It also said that the taxpayer had $1,500 of tax withheld on that $10k. So, in theory, the math would work out to $500 more that the taxpayer owed, right? $2000 more tax less $1500 withheld works out to $500 owed.....right?

Well, the letter says they owe $2000.

I can understand that. Everyone makes mistakes. So a while back I wrote them a letter explaining the situation and the math.

Today I got the reply (8 weeks after sending the first letter). The gist of that letter........? "The notice does reflect the additional federal withholding. It's right there below the amount of tax increase."

Well great googley moogley!! I know it's on the letter!! I told you guys that in my reply! The problem is that it's not factored into the amount due!!!! You people are the ones in charge of how much tax I owe and you can't even get this right!!??

Now, in all fairness, this level of stupid doesn't come up that often but it sure as hell has been getting worse over he past few years and I'm a little concerned that it's a sign of things to come. If we're going to be adding millions more returns to the system just for the ACA stuff this kind of thing could impact a hell of a lot of people.

Just a heads up folks. Just a heads up....if you get a notice from the IRS make sure you pay attention because there's a better than even chance it's going to be wrong.

Expect more of this with IRS cutbacks. They've shrunk through attrition, losing experienced personnel and not replacing them, leaving less people with less experience.

 

[Summerwind]

15 and never having dealt with taxes?

Well bless your heart!:lamo

did I not read in another thread that you're 15 years old?

 

[azgreg]

did I not read in another thread that you're 15 years old?

Luther is 15







in dog years.

 

[Winchester]

did I not read in another thread that you're 15 years old?

Your thinking of Luftwafer... the guy with the plane avatar.

 

[Quag]

did I not read in another thread that you're 15 years old?

I think you are confusing him with Luftwafffe

*edit* :ninja:

 

[Lutherf]

Expect more of this with IRS cutbacks. They've shrunk through attrition, losing experienced personnel and not replacing them, leaving less people with less experience.

That they have and it's getting really, really bad. They are relying heavily on automated services that just flat out underperform and have supplemented that with low job knowledge employees that have less authority to make determinations.

Getting an issue to an actual person takes forever and the competence level of those who do pick up the matter is generally much less than those of a few years ago. I now expect a minimum of an hour on hold with practioner priority services and the likelihood of resolution at that level is next to nothing. Getting a determination for an amended return is at least an 8 week wait. This particular issue is with AUR and they used to be pretty easy to deal with but I get the impression that they moves a bunch of the gum chewers that used to be with ACS to the department and now both are screwed.

 

[Lutherf]

Luther is 15







in dog years.

Hey!!! That's just mean!:lamo

 

[Beaudreaux]

As we all know, the IRS is going to the the point agency for determining the amount of and collecting penalties and/or subsidies related to the ACA. These calculations will be based on information that your employers, fund managers and others will be reporting to the IRS as well as what you report yourself.

So, just how effective is the IRS in putting all this data together and coming up with the right answer? Well, to be fair, I'd have to say it's rather hit or miss and when they miss it can be mighty entertaining.

Take this example from the top of my in box today:

The taxpayer received a notice that they failed to include a pension distribution on their 2011 return. The IRS letter stated who the distribution was issued by, the amount of the distribution and the increase in tax due. All of this was correct.

The letter also noted that a certain amount of tax had been withheld from this distribution. It did not, however include that amount in the calculation for the amount of tax due. I want to be extra clear on this so, for example, the letter said that the taxpayer failed to include $10,000 of income which resulted in a tax increase of $2,000. It also said that the taxpayer had $1,500 of tax withheld on that $10k. So, in theory, the math would work out to $500 more that the taxpayer owed, right? $2000 more tax less $1500 withheld works out to $500 owed.....right?

Well, the letter says they owe $2000.

I can understand that. Everyone makes mistakes. So a while back I wrote them a letter explaining the situation and the math.

Today I got the reply (8 weeks after sending the first letter). The gist of that letter........? "The notice does reflect the additional federal withholding. It's right there below the amount of tax increase."

Well great googley moogley!! I know it's on the letter!! I told you guys that in my reply! The problem is that it's not factored into the amount due!!!! You people are the ones in charge of how much tax I owe and you can't even get this right!!??

Now, in all fairness, this level of stupid doesn't come up that often but it sure as hell has been getting worse over he past few years and I'm a little concerned that it's a sign of things to come. If we're going to be adding millions more returns to the system just for the ACA stuff this kind of thing could impact a hell of a lot of people.

Just a heads up folks. Just a heads up....if you get a notice from the IRS make sure you pay attention because there's a better than even chance it's going to be wrong.

I have a short note for you (well it turned out to be not so short - sorry for that). On topic for the IRS, but has nothing to do with the ACA.

Today, as you and I well know, is pony up and file day for Q2-14. Well, I have been having a problem with the IRS since Q3-13, to where they have been claiming that my company underpaid Q3-13 taxes. I did not. I wrote letter after letter. I made call after call. I kept getting official notice after official notice. Knowing how the system works, since Yes Ma'am is on fact a tax auditor, I paid the supposed under-payment along with the penalty and fees when I got the first notice in the mail, to prevent them from seizing my accounts or worse. However, they misapplied that payment and sent me another notice in Q4-13 saying that I owed additional penalties and fees on the original "under-payment" as well as the supposed unpaid fees and penalties on the original notice - I paid that also. All during this time I am sending letter after letter and making call after call. Every time I would write I would include documentation and proof that I had paid the original tax, and I would get a letter in response very similar to the one you talk about in the OP, where they would repeat the same claims and as for the proof that I had made the tax deposit... they were very creative in their double talk, or just too ignorant to see the facts. When I would make a call, I would get a lecture about IRS Pub 15 and that I really needed to read it. I've read it. I've even read the new 2014 version of Pub 15. I have a copy that I leave on top of my frigging desk to reference when I try to deal with these idiots.

Well??? Today, I had lost my temper with them. I got another notice in the mail saying I had overpaid my taxes... imagine that. So I called again. This time, I got a guy - not that guys are better than women, but this guy was a hell of a lot better than those women I had talked to before. It was obvious when he finally came on line after over an hour being on hold, that I was not a happy, happy, joy, joy mood. Knowing that it would be obvious, and that I didn't want to make my predicament worse, as soon as he said hello, I immediately said "I apologize in advance for any grumpy attitude that I have and please do not take my tone or tenor personally." To which... he laughed. Yup, he laughed - hard and loud. Then he said "That's perfectly alright, sir. We are the IRS after all." And that broke the tension with me right there. He then asked all the normal questions (TIN, official name of the company, my name and title, address of the company and so on). Once the official BS was complete, he said "Why don't you just tell me what's going on?" I said, "This could take a while", and he said, "That's alright Mr. Beaudreaux, remember, I'm a government employee and no one actually expects me to be in a hurry to do anything anyway." To which I laughed.

So I started to tell the story. Every now and then he would ask me to "hold on a second while I pull that screen up" and after he would do so he would say "okay, I'm with you again." After I had spent over 30 minute (yup - a half hour) explaining it all in detail, he said "Do you mind holding on for a few minutes?" Of course, I said "Sure. Not a problem."

When he came back on, he had waived ALL the penalties and fees, and had issued me a refund. After explaining what he was able to do, he added "I am so sorry that you had to endure all this, Mr. Beaudreaux. I have forwarded your file to the Division IG to review the previous agents actions and their notes they left on your file." To which I asked "What notes?" He said "Notes they put in your file regarding their view of what had occurred and you and your company in general." I asked, if I should be worried and he said no, that he was actually a senior supervisor that was helping to man the phone lines today and that he had put a higher level notation telling everyone else to ignore the previous notes.

What an ordeal. Thank God I lucked up and got a senior level person with a good sense of humor and a good sense of fairness.

Oh yeah, he also laughed at the responses to my letters and said that was one of the reasons he had referred it to the IG. I just hope the IG doesn't involve me in whatever they do. I'm tired of them all at this point.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Hey!!! That's just mean!:lamo

Mean? Yes. Accurate???? Hmmmm.

 

[Lutherf]

I have a short note for you (well it turned out to be not so short - sorry for that). On topic for the IRS, but has nothing to do with the ACA.

Today, as you and I well know, is pony up and file day for Q2-14. Well, I have been having a problem with the IRS since Q3-13, to where they have been claiming that my company underpaid Q3-13 taxes. I did not. I wrote letter after letter. I made call after call. I kept getting official notice after official notice. Knowing how the system works, since Yes Ma'am is on fact a tax auditor, I paid the supposed under-payment along with the penalty and fees when I got the first notice in the mail, to prevent them from seizing my accounts or worse. However, they misapplied that payment and sent me another notice in Q4-13 saying that I owed additional penalties and fees on the original "under-payment" as well as the supposed unpaid fees and penalties on the original notice - I paid that also. All during this time I am sending letter after letter and making call after call. Every time I would write I would include documentation and proof that I had paid the original tax, and I would get a letter in response very similar to the one you talk about in the OP, where they would repeat the same claims and as for the proof that I had made the tax deposit... they were very creative in their double talk, or just too ignorant to see the facts. When I would make a call, I would get a lecture about IRS Pub 15 and that I really needed to read it. I've read it. I've even read the new 2014 version of Pub 15. I have a copy that I leave on top of my frigging desk to reference when I try to deal with these idiots.

Well??? Today, I had lost my temper with them. I got another notice in the mail saying I had overpaid my taxes... imagine that. So I called again. This time, I got a guy - not that guys are better than women, but this guy was a hell of a lot better than those women I had talked to before. It was obvious when he finally came on line after over an hour being on hold, that I was not a happy, happy, joy, joy mood. Knowing that it would be obvious, and that I didn't want to make my predicament worse, as soon as he said hello, I immediately said "I apologize in advance for any grumpy attitude that I have and please do not take my tone or tenor personally." To which... he laughed. Yup, he laughed - hard and loud. Then he said "That's perfectly alright, sir. We are the IRS after all." And that broke the tension with me right there. He then asked all the normal questions (TIN, official name of the company, my name and title, address of the company and so on). Once the official BS was complete, he said "Why don't you just tell me what's going on?" I said, "This could take a while", and he said, "That's alright Mr. Beaudreaux, remember, I'm a government employee and no one actually expects me to be in a hurry to do anything anyway." To which I laughed.

So I started to tell the story. Every now and then he would ask me to "hold on a second while I pull that screen up" and after he would do so he would say "okay, I'm with you again." After I had spent over 30 minute (yup - a half hour) explaining it all in detail, he said "Do you mind holding on for a few minutes?" Of course, I said "Sure. Not a problem."

When he came back on, he had waived ALL the penalties and fees, and had issued me a refund. After explaining what he was able to do, he added "I am so sorry that you had to endure all this, Mr. Beaudreaux. I have forwarded your file to the Division IG to review the previous agents actions and their notes they left on your file." To which I asked "What notes?" He said "Notes they put in your file regarding their view of what had occurred and you and your company in general." I asked, if I should be worried and he said no, that he was actually a senior supervisor that was helping to man the phone lines today and that he had put a higher level notation telling everyone else to ignore the previous notes.

What an ordeal. Thank God I lucked up and got a senior level person with a good sense of humor and a good sense of fairness.

Oh yeah, he also laughed at the responses to my letters and said that was one of the reasons he had referred it to the IG. I just hope the IG doesn't involve me in whatever they do. I'm tired of them all at this point.

Yep. That's the way it generally works.

There are absolutely some outstanding employees at the IRS but, unfortunately, they are few and far between. I too have found that keeping the conversation casual and professionally personal is often the best way to get results but that's just not possible with most of the folks who pick up the phone.

The thing about the notes is VERY important. I'm quite sure that they have an extensive dossier on me in my CAF file and I try to make sure that nothing negative ends up there. I have no way of knowing what the file says but, generally speaking, after the person I'm talking to gets my number they tend to loosen up.

You seem to have experienced what I was saying in my reply to Winchester. Once bad (inaccurate) information gets into the computer it damned near takes an act of God to square it away.

For anyone who has to call the IRS and doesn't get the impression that the person they are dealing with is helping I recommend just thanking the person and hanging up. Call back again and get someone else. Most of the front line folks are VERY inexperienced and basically read off scripts. You can lead them a little way down the road but more often than not you'll have to talk to someone else anyway. Just remember that even though they may not be able to help you they damned sure can hurt you so don't piss them off (as an aside, telling them that they are wrong usually pisses them off). If they are wrong and I know it I try to ask for clarification. Sometimes this makes the lightbulb come on or, at least, gets them to transfer me to someone who can help.

 

[Lutherf]

Mean? Yes. Accurate???? Hmmmm.

That would make me 105. On my worst day I don't feel 105!:lamo

 

[Beaudreaux]

Yep. That's the way it generally works.

There are absolutely some outstanding employees at the IRS but, unfortunately, they are few and far between. I too have found that keeping the conversation casual and professionally personal is often the best way to get results but that's just not possible with most of the folks who pick up the phone.

The thing about the notes is VERY important. I'm quite sure that they have an extensive dossier on me in my CAF file and I try to make sure that nothing negative ends up there. I have no way of knowing what the file says but, generally speaking, after the person I'm talking to gets my number they tend to loosen up.

You seem to have experienced what I was saying in my reply to Winchester. Once bad (inaccurate) information gets into the computer it damned near takes an act of God to square it away.

For anyone who has to call the IRS and doesn't get the impression that the person they are dealing with is helping I recommend just thanking the person and hanging up. Call back again and get someone else. Most of the front line folks are VERY inexperienced and basically read off scripts. You can lead them a little way down the road but more often than not you'll have to talk to someone else anyway. Just remember that even though they may not be able to help you they damned sure can hurt you so don't piss them off (as an aside, telling them that they are wrong usually pisses them off). If they are wrong and I know it I try to ask for clarification. Sometimes this makes the lightbulb come on or, at least, gets them to transfer me to someone who can help.

Yes Ma'am has been working from home while going through her stuff she's dealing with, as you know. I've been listening to her calls she's been getting all day long from companies she's auditing. Some are just hilarious to hear. She tries hard, too hard sometimes, to help the companies out, up to and including inputting their reports into the system herself to make sure the company doesn't screw it up and cause her and them even more problems.

Today, at 10 minutes for 5pm, she got an email from a company that shows up on her audit list every quarter, asking her to file their report for her. She said a few choice words, quickly called them, got the info, and put it in the system with her override so it didn't show up as late.

Of course, with the exception of the guy I talked to today from the IRS, any time I have to talk to any auditor or agent on a federal or state level, I never get anyone even close to as helpful as Yes Ma'am is to her people. And, of course, since she's my wife she can't help me because of a conflict of interest. Go figure... But, I prefer having her as my wife and if her not being able to help me officially is a price I have to pay? So be it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

That would make me 105. On my worst day I don't feel 105!:lamo

I don't know what 105 feels like, and never will I'm sure. But, I damn sure know what a tired and busted 50 year old feels like. :shock:

 

[Lutherf]

Yes Ma'am has been working from home while going through her stuff she's dealing with, as you know. I've been listening to her calls she's been getting all day long from companies she's auditing. Some are just hilarious to hear. She tries hard, too hard sometimes, to help the companies out, up to and including inputting their reports into the system herself to make sure the company doesn't screw it up and cause her and them even more problems.

Today, at 10 minutes for 5pm, she got an email from a company that shows up on her audit list every quarter, asking her to file their report for her. She said a few choice words, quickly called them, got the info, and put it in the system with her override so it didn't show up as late.

Of course, with the exception of the guy I talked to today from the IRS, any time I have to talk to any auditor or agent on a federal or state level, I never get anyone even close to as helpful as Yes Ma'am is to her people. And, of course, since she's my wife she can't help me because of a conflict of interest. Go figure... But, I prefer having her as my wife and if her not being able to help me officially is a price I have to pay? So be it.

Payroll is the biggest killer for any small business. Between the rules and regulations and the employees who can't figure out how to show up on time but know damned well if you short them a nickle.......no way in hell I want to deal with that. I tell all my clients who have employees to just hire one of the payroll processing firms. Let them deal with all that crap.

Your wife sounds like a wonderful woman.....but I guess you know that and how lucky you are!

 

[lizzie]

So I don't know of the IRS that you, being 15 and never having ever actually dealt with anything akin to taxes, claim is ruining everyone's lives.

O. M. G.
Now, THAT is hilarious. :lamo

 

[Master PO]

IRS Agrees to Atheist Group's Demands to Monitor Sermons

for your viewing and reading pleasure

 

[Lutherf]

IRS Agrees to Atheist Group's Demands to Monitor Sermons

for your viewing and reading pleasure

That's absurd....but believable.

The director of the IRS Office of Professional Responsibility has instituted new rules regarding the representation of married couples. Since 2012 both spouses need to provide separate authorization to be represented by a third party. This is due, according to Karen Hawkins, to the "fact" that there is an inherent risk of a conflict of interest between spouses.

 

[US Conservative]

time to end the IRS, and go to a consumption tax.

Indeed. BTW, one cool thing about the trench gun is if the trigger stays depressed, it will fire immediately upon returning to battery.

 

[Master PO]

Indeed. BTW, one cool thing about the trench gun is if the trigger stays depressed, it will fire immediately upon returning to battery.

slam-firing, yes my shotgun does that, but i don't believe the knock-off Chinese ones do.