Cuomo announces income tax revenues dropped by $2.3B (1 Viewer)

[Lutherf]

https://nypost.com/2019/02/04/cuomo-announces-income-tax-revenues-have-dropped-by-2-3b/

Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced Monday that state income tax revenues plummeted by $2.3 billion since he introduced his new budget plan last month — a bombshell that will force him to curb spending.

Cuomo blames the Trump tax cut's SALT limitation.

While the article doesn't expressly state why the SALT limitation has an impact the obvious answer is that wealthy New Yorkers are taking up residence in states that don't have huge property and income taxes on the wealthy. If they can no longer deduct their state taxes they'll live somewhere that it doesn't make a difference.

I love this bit.

“I don’t believe raising taxes on the rich. That would be the worst thing to do. You would just expand the shortfall,” he said. “God forbid if the rich leave.”

I wonder if his brother, Chris, feels the same way?

 

[sangha]

https://nypost.com/2019/02/04/cuomo-announces-income-tax-revenues-have-dropped-by-2-3b/



Cuomo blames the Trump tax cut's SALT limitation.

While the article doesn't expressly state why the SALT limitation has an impact the obvious answer is that wealthy New Yorkers are taking up residence in states that don't have huge property and income taxes on the wealthy. If they can no longer deduct their state taxes they'll live somewhere that it doesn't make a difference.

I love this bit.



I wonder if his brother, Chris, feels the same way?

1) NYS taxes income earned in NYS, so moving will not change their tax liability

2) There is no evidence of an outflux of wealthy people in NYS

3) The areas around NYS that a wealthy person would most likely move to have real estate taxes that are equal, or even higher than, the real estate taxes they are paying now

4) NYC real estate taxes are relatively low in Manhattan, which is where most of the wealthy NYC residents live

 

[holbritter]

https://nypost.com/2019/02/04/cuomo-announces-income-tax-revenues-have-dropped-by-2-3b/



Cuomo blames the Trump tax cut's SALT limitation.

While the article doesn't expressly state why the SALT limitation has an impact the obvious answer is that wealthy New Yorkers are taking up residence in states that don't have huge property and income taxes on the wealthy. If they can no longer deduct their state taxes they'll live somewhere that it doesn't make a difference.

I love this bit.



I wonder if his brother, Chris, feels the same way?

Of course he'll blame everything else but his own choices. He's been living in a bubble and promoting that bubble that people are not leaving NY because of the high taxes (he says it's because of the weather!) But let him keep giving **** away. I'm outta here in 4 years.

 

[Lutherf]

1) NYS taxes income earned in NYS, so moving will not change their tax liability

2) There is no evidence of an outflux of wealthy people in NYS

3) The areas around NYS that a wealthy person would most likely move to have real estate taxes that are equal, or even higher than, the real estate taxes they are paying now

4) NYC real estate taxes are relatively low in Manhattan, which is where most of the wealthy NYC residents live

I may be mistaken as I don't do too many NY returns these days but, if I remember correctly, NY taxes residents on all their income no matter where they earn it but non-residents only get taxed on that portion of their income that was earned in NY. What I mean is, if a New Yorker moved to Florida and only rented a place when they visited New York then they would have little to no New York income to tax.

I only mentioned the idea of wealthy New Yorkers leaving because it was mentioned in the article.

Cuomo said Albany can’t go to the well and tax the wealthy again because that would only worsen the situation, citing “anecdotal” evidence that high-income New Yorkers are already fleeing the state to lower-tax jurisdictions.

Naturally, I don't live there or operate a business there so my take could definitely be off.

 

[holbritter]

1) NYS taxes income earned in NYS, so moving will not change their tax liability

2) There is no evidence of an outflux of wealthy people in NYS

3) The areas around NYS that a wealthy person would most likely move to have real estate taxes that are equal, or even higher than, the real estate taxes they are paying now

4) NYC real estate taxes are relatively low in Manhattan, which is where most of the wealthy NYC residents live

A low real estate tax rate is no good when the property is assessed ridiculously high. People aren't moving from NY to surrounding areas, they are moving to places where the taxes are not as high.

 

[Lutherf]

Of course he'll blame everything else but his own choices. He's been living in a bubble and promoting that bubble that people are not leaving NY because of the high taxes (he says it's because of the weather!) But let him keep giving **** away. I'm outta here in 4 years.

You know as well as I do that Progressives are never wrong. The issues where they may look like they made a bad decision are all merely a function of Conservatives spinning the reality of the situation.

 

[holbritter]

I may be mistaken as I don't do too many NY returns these days but, if I remember correctly, NY taxes residents on all their income no matter where they earn it but non-residents only get taxed on that portion of their income that was earned in NY. What I mean is, if a New Yorker moved to Florida and only rented a place when they visited New York then they would have little to no New York income to tax.

I only mentioned the idea of wealthy New Yorkers leaving because it was mentioned in the article.

Naturally, I don't live there or operate a business there so my take could definitely be off.

That is correct, however you also get credit for what you pay that other state in income tax. Unless you're earning in an income tax free state, but I don't see that since there isn't one next door.

 

[Lutherf]

That is correct, however you also get credit for what you pay that other state in income tax. Unless you're earning in an income tax free state, but I don't see that since there isn't one next door.

Right. However, most billionaires aren't getting a W-2...or not a significant one. Their income usually comes in the form of investments and business earnings. If they aren't doing business in New York and have moved out of state then Cuomo won't be getting any income tax from them. What I'm saying is that they probably don't need to worry about a commute.

 

[OldFatGuy]

https://nypost.com/2019/02/04/cuomo-announces-income-tax-revenues-have-dropped-by-2-3b/



Cuomo blames the Trump tax cut's SALT limitation.

While the article doesn't expressly state why the SALT limitation has an impact the obvious answer is that wealthy New Yorkers are taking up residence in states that don't have huge property and income taxes on the wealthy. If they can no longer deduct their state taxes they'll live somewhere that it doesn't make a difference.

I love this bit.



I wonder if his brother, Chris, feels the same way?

Andy needs to cutback drastically on his obscene spending habits. No more new taxes, fees, congestion taxes and other money grabs. No more waste and corruption for his cronies.

Not many wealthy NYer's have left. Most have multiple residences elsewhere, and NYC is where they make their bucks. What they are doing is changing their legal residences and spending more time in those other homes. The truly rich have options. They can easily commute from Florida, or elsewhere for 2 to 3 days per week, and do the rest of their work via the net. I have one acquaintance who semi retired 20 years ago to a horse ranch in Kentucky. He flies to NYC for 2 to 3 days a week, oversees his business and returns home to Kentucky. While here, he stays at his luxurious $million condo that he bought years back for $250k, his wife shops and they catch a show, dine out, visit with family and friends if in the mood. Rural Kentucky is his lawful residence.

The stock market woes contributed about 60% of the tax revenue drop, along with a significant drop in transfer and mortgage taxes as real property sales declined.

 

[OldFatGuy]

A low real estate tax rate is no good when the property is assessed ridiculously high. People aren't moving from NY to surrounding areas, they are moving to places where the taxes are not as high.

And being wealthy is now evil for them. Bernie and Chuck should give all their savings and properties to the poor. Rule by example. This message was approved by George Soros.

 

[sangha]

Of course he'll blame everything else but his own choices. He's been living in a bubble and promoting that bubble that people are not leaving NY because of the high taxes (he says it's because of the weather!) But let him keep giving **** away. I'm outta here in 4 years.

NYS population has been growing.

 

[Barnacle]

NYS population has been growing.

"ALBANY - New York's population continues to decline faster than any other state, according to new data released Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau.

The report found New York was just one of nine states to see a decrease in population, losing an estimated 48,510 residents between July 1, 2017, and July 1, 2018. ..."


https://www.democratandchronicle.co...york-population-loss-steepest-u-s/2362167002/

 

[sangha]

I may be mistaken as I don't do too many NY returns these days but, if I remember correctly, NY taxes residents on all their income no matter where they earn it but non-residents only get taxed on that portion of their income that was earned in NY. What I mean is, if a New Yorker moved to Florida and only rented a place when they visited New York then they would have little to no New York income to tax.

I only mentioned the idea of wealthy New Yorkers leaving because it was mentioned in the article.


Naturally, I don't live there or operate a business there so my take could definitely be off.

True, but I think both you and I made the mistake of conflating the new limits on the SALT tax deduction and income taxes. You specifically references the former as being behind the drop in tax revenue. That does not make sense to me

Real estate taxes in NYS are paid if you own property in NYS, regardless if you are a legal resident or not. In order to avoid that, you have to sell your property. Of course, that is entirely doable. However, the limit is with deductions to ones Federal Income Tax. The limit on SALT deductions are in effect in every state. Since a wealthy person from NY is unlikely to move into a cheap home, nor move far away, it is unlikely that they well be significantly reducing their real estate tax bill, and therefore just as likely to be affected by the new SALT limit

Remember, these are people who are paying a lot of money in RE taxes. That is because they have an expensive home in an expensive area. This means they knowingly and deliberately paid a very high premium to live there. In order to save a significant amount, they would have to either move into a smaller home in a less upscale area - a choice they deliberately chose to not make when they purchased this property.


The problem is that NYers are paying more in FIT, which is deductible on NYS income taxes. More FIT means a larger deduction on their NYS IT

 

[sangha]

A low real estate tax rate is no good when the property is assessed ridiculously high. People aren't moving from NY to surrounding areas, they are moving to places where the taxes are not as high.

And what are they doing about their high paying jobs?

And NYC RE taxes are low because their properties are assessed at levels far below market value.

 

[sangha]

Right. However, most billionaires aren't getting a W-2...or not a significant one. Their income usually comes in the form of investments and business earnings. If they aren't doing business in New York and have moved out of state then Cuomo won't be getting any income tax from them. What I'm saying is that they probably don't need to worry about a commute.

The three biggest industries in NY are real estate, finance, and tourism - all industries that require a local presence for most of its employees and owners.

 

[sangha]

"ALBANY - New York's population continues to decline faster than any other state, according to new data released Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau.

The report found New York was just one of nine states to see a decrease in population, losing an estimated 48,510 residents between July 1, 2017, and July 1, 2018. ..."


https://www.democratandchronicle.co...york-population-loss-steepest-u-s/2362167002/

A one year drop is not a trend.

 

[joko104]

Andy needs to cutback drastically on his obscene spending habits. No more new taxes, fees, congestion taxes and other money grabs. No more waste and corruption for his cronies.

Not many wealthy NYer's have left. Most have multiple residences elsewhere, and NYC is where they make their bucks. What they are doing is changing their legal residences and spending more time in those other homes. The truly rich have options. They can easily commute from Florida, or elsewhere for 2 to 3 days per week, and do the rest of their work via the net. I have one acquaintance who semi retired 20 years ago to a horse ranch in Kentucky. He flies to NYC for 2 to 3 days a week, oversees his business and returns home to Kentucky. While here, he stays at his luxurious $million condo that he bought years back for $250k, his wife shops and they catch a show, dine out, visit with family and friends if in the mood. Rural Kentucky is his lawful residence.

The stock market woes contributed about 60% of the tax revenue drop, along with a significant drop in transfer and mortgage taxes as real property sales declined.

It won't be the super rich who leave. It will be the middle clase who leaves. Liberal areas tend to have massive income inequality of a fw super rich people and gobs of low income people on government assistance. It is the middle class that Democrat/liberal government targets for tax and regulatory shakedowns.

 

[joko104]

"ALBANY - New York's population continues to decline faster than any other state, according to new data released Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau.

The report found New York was just one of nine states to see a decrease in population, losing an estimated 48,510 residents between July 1, 2017, and July 1, 2018. ..."


https://www.democratandchronicle.co...york-population-loss-steepest-u-s/2362167002/

Slowing immigration, particularly illegal immigration, hits NYC's population for obvious reason. Over 1/3rd of NYCers were not born in the USA.

More Foreign-Born Immigrants Live In NYC Than There Are People In Chicago

Over 37 percent of New York City residents were born in another country, according to a new report, the highest percentage in over 100 years. A record high 3.07 million foreign-born immigrants live in New York City, more than any other city in the world.

For perspective: There are more foreign-born New Yorkers than there are people living in America’s third-largest city, Chicago, or roughly the same as the populations of Philadelphia and Phoenix combined.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/19/new-york-city-immigrants_n_4475197.html

 

[Barnacle]

A one year drop is not a trend.

It is a trend; read the article.

Besides, your claim was that NYS population is increasing ... (grin).

 

[sangha]

It is a trend; read the article.

Besides, your claim was that NYS population is increasing ... (grin).

It is increasing over the long-term. The article clearly states NYS pop is higher now than it was in 2013

And, as the op article clearly states, the level of taxation is going down.

 

[OldFatGuy]

"ALBANY - New York's population continues to decline faster than any other state, according to new data released Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau.

The report found New York was just one of nine states to see a decrease in population, losing an estimated 48,510 residents between July 1, 2017, and July 1, 2018. ..."


https://www.democratandchronicle.co...york-population-loss-steepest-u-s/2362167002/

But NYC's, and surrounding NY counties have population that is growing. Upstate towns and cities look like they are inhabited by ghosts. College towns, prison towns and a few wealthy enclaves are surviving, even growing, but everything north of Albany needs a painting. It isn't taxes that are making people flee, it is the cold winters, lack of jobs, empty government promises, and retirements. Cuomo could start some road rebuilding to create jobs, but no one will be around to use the roads when the construction is complete.

 

[Barnacle]

It is increasing over the long-term. The article clearly states NYS pop is higher now than it was in 2013

And, as the op article clearly states, the level of taxation is going down.

Give up; NYS population has been declining for at least 3 years now. A clear trend downwards ...

https://www.timesunion.com/local/article/New-York-s-overall-population-is-shrinking-10811064.php

 

[holbritter]

It is increasing over the long-term. The article clearly states NYS pop is higher now than it was in 2013

And, as the op article clearly states, the level of taxation is going down.

So the population that is growing, is not paying taxes. Go figure.

 

[sangha]

So the population that is growing, is not paying taxes. Go figure.

Again, because of the new limit on the SALT deduction for federal income taxes, NYers are paying more in FIT. Since FIT is deductible on NYS income taxes, those who are paying more in federal income taxes are getting larger deductions on their NYS income taxes which caused NYS income tax revenue to decrease.

IOW, they are paying taxes. Just less taxes.

And your stupid argument is that people are leaving NYS because they are paying more in NYS income tax, even though the title of the thread clearly states that they are paying less.

 

[OldFatGuy]

It won't be the super rich who leave. It will be the middle clase who leaves. Liberal areas tend to have massive income inequality of a fw super rich people and gobs of low income people on government assistance. It is the middle class that Democrat/liberal government targets for tax and regulatory shakedowns.

You're deluding yourself. NYC has one of the highest tax rates when combined with the state taxes. The middle class isn't leaving, it's moving upwards into the 20%ers. Six figure salaries are common, and real estate assets keep moving upwards. One of my nieces is earning upwards of $150k, her boyfriend/fiancé about $200k. They were complaining how they couldn't cut it here, wanting to sell their $800k apartment and move to NJ. After contemplating the commute, they are not giving up their careers, NJ taxes and higher mortgage payments at new rates, they realized they could save more money here. Don't ask how they came to that conclusion, I don't know. Why, with a combined income of $350k they thought they weren't cutting it is beyond me. They are millennials, so often castigated in the media, but they share an investment portfolio worth more than a $mil that also turns out dividends they reinvest. They are far from uncommon. Most everyone I know in my age bracket, I'm 70, is worth at least a $million and complaining. Go figure?

NYC is still the economic capital of the world. There's money to be made despite the high costs of living and more people keep arriving with hope in their eyes. The poverty rate here has declined drastically over the past three decades, and so has government assisted living. You don't know what you are talking about. Plumbers here are making more than bankers. One of my neighbors retired from the NYPD with a nice pension, he's earning another $150k doing construction work as neighborhoods are gentrifying. He can't keep up with demand for his labor. New monolith luxury buildings are going up in the outer counties, with prices similar to Manhattan when they are a subway stop or two from Manhattan. They sellout before construction is completed. There are neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens where home prices have surpassed Manhattan. If anything, it is the poor who are leaving, heading south as they are cut off from government assistance because now they have to work for the benefits. There is no more welfare without work, except for the disabled and severely ill. The homeless ranks have stabilized, and they find themselves being harassed out of gentrified neighborhoods, by private hired security, hired because our illustrious progressive mayor keeps failing them. They are also beginning to leave, where I don't know, but they are leaving.