Crunching the Numbers.

[iguanaman]

This is not possible to determine.

Other than all the uses of guns which save lives lol.

Which is directly refuted by the CDC's published study of over 500,000 defensive firearms uses annually.

LOL You just admitted that not one of those "uses" were proven to save a life. That study refuted nothing.

 

[RF667799]

LOL You just admitted that not one of those "uses" were proven to save a life. That study refuted nothing.

Self defense doesn't hinge on proving that a life was saved.

Think of it this way. If you see someone flailing about in a river, in the grasp of the current, obviously getting weaker and weaker....and you jump in, swim to that person, and haul him to shore, people would hail you as a hero who saved that person's life.

But there's no proof you did. We can only speculate what might have happened in the absence of your action.

 

[rahl]

LOL You just admitted that not one of those "uses" were proven to save a life. That study refuted nothing.

Of course it did.

 

[Rucker61]

How many of those supposed uses saved lives? There is no evidence that guns save more lives than they cost in a home. The data I showed you was quite extensive and clearly showed that guns in the home do not save lives they cost lives.

So does living alone or renting, even more so.

 

[rickc]

I say if you want to end it all then use the most efficient method. Why drag it out.

But that is no reason to restrict my gun ownership.

 

[NWRatCon]

Perfectly valid, and factual argument actually. That it refutes the position you hold, is the only reason you don't like it.

Nope. The claim is that firearms cause higher rates of suicide. That is quite demonstrably false, as I've shown

You haven't "shown" squat. You just don't understand well enough to understand that. You made an argument. That argument is fallacious. It belies a lack of understanding of sociology, statistics, logic, and common sense. You make an argument in the form if a then b, therefore x. It's a non-sequitur.

Japan has a culture distinct from the United States. Each culture has a different view of suicide. Cultural, economic, social, and demographic factors all play into suicide rates. So does prevalence of firearm availability. It's pretty simple, really. The US suicide rate is higher than 80% of the rest of the world.

 

[Rucker61]

You haven't "shown" squat. You just don't understand well enough to understand that. You made an argument. That argument is fallacious. It belies a lack of understanding of sociology, statistics, logic, and common sense. You make an argument in the form if a then b, therefore x. It's a non-sequitur.

Japan has a culture distinct from the United States. Each culture has a different view of suicide. Cultural, economic, social, and demographic factors all play into suicide rates. So does prevalence of firearm availability. It's pretty simple, really. The US suicide rate is higher than 80% of the rest of the world.

I'm sure there are people here who appreciate this public service announcement, for that's all it is.

 

[NWRatCon]

You should let the CDC know that the study they published showing over 500,000 defensive uses of a firearm, ANNUALLY, is incorrect lol.

Yes, it is. It's been refuted dozens of times. It's poorly designed, sloppily done and, frankly, ridiculous. The conclusion is unsupported. The CDC didn't endorse it, they forwarded to the public. They're a conduit.

 

[NWRatCon]

LOL You just admitted that not one of those "uses" were proven to save a life. That study refuted nothing.

This is getting tiresome. I'd bet serious money he hasn't even read it, just parroting someone else's taking point. "Defensive use" according to the author, included anyone who "felt" they were safer because they had a firearm.

 

[zsu2357]

I'm not in support of restricting all rifles. Are you in support of any restriction whatsoever? Including registration, etc.?

No just all magazine fed semi auto's. Rifles and shotguns.

 

[rahl]

You haven't "shown" squat.

I've shown that firearms are irrelevant to suicide rates.

You just don't understand well enough to understand that.

I'm sorry that your position has been shown to be nonsense. That isn't my fault.

You made an argument. That argument is fallacious.

Calling something that refutes your position "fallacious" doesn't actually make it so.

It belies a lack of understanding of sociology, statistics, logic, and common sense.

It directly refutes the premise of "more guns = more suicides"

You make an argument in the form if a then b, therefore x. It's a non-sequitur.

You apparently don't know what non sequitur means.

Japan has a culture distinct from the United States.

So you agree, that firearms are not the cause of suicide. You are proving my point lol.

Each culture has a different view of suicide. Cultural, economic, social, and demographic factors all play into suicide rates. So does prevalence of firearm availability.

Nope. Firearm availability is entirely irrelevant.

It's pretty simple, really.

I know

The US suicide rate is higher than 80% of the rest of the world.

irrelevant. You can not demonstrate a causal relationship between firearms and suicide. I can demonstrate that there is no causal relationship.

 

[rahl]

Yes, it is. It's been refuted dozens of times.

Awesome! Then you should call them up and let them know! Maybe post the study you are referring to, which refutes the CDC"s study?

It's poorly designed, sloppily done and, frankly, ridiculous. The conclusion is unsupported. The CDC didn't endorse it, they forwarded to the public. They're a conduit.

"nuh uh" isn't an argument. Show the study which rebutted the CDC's study that they published.

 

[zsu2357]

Suicide?

Think gun control will reduce suicide?

I believe if you want to kill yourself lack of a gun isn't going to slow you down.

You've heard the expression "faster than a speeding bullet"? How about faster than a speeding brick off of a ten story building?

 

[Mach]

Suicide?
Think gun control will reduce suicide?
I believe if you want to kill yourself lack of a gun isn't going to slow you down.

Data says otherwise:

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don't own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don't.

med.stanford.edu

"Owning a handgun is associated with a dramatically elevated risk of suicide, according to new Stanford research that followed 26 million California residents over a 12-year period."

Guns and suicide: A fatal link | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45

www.hsph.harvard.edu

“Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

Are you able to revise your belief based on new data?
@rahl has demonstrated he won't revise his false claims, despite evidence to the contrary, and none to refute it.

 

[Rucker61]

Data says otherwise:

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don't own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don't.

med.stanford.edu

"Owning a handgun is associated with a dramatically elevated risk of suicide, according to new Stanford research that followed 26 million California residents over a 12-year period."

Guns and suicide: A fatal link | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45

www.hsph.harvard.edu

“Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

And other studies don't embrace the impulsive theory of suicide.

What Role Does Impulsivity Play in Suicide? | Military Suicide Research Consortium

msrc.fsu.edu

Are you able to revise your belief based on new data?
@rahl has demonstrated he won't revise his false claims, despite evidence to the contrary, and none to refute it.

Are belts and ropes generally easy to access at home?

 

[rickc]

Look if you are planning on killing yourself then what difference does it make how you do it. Now personally I would use my .45. Quick and painless.

but suicide should have no impact on my right to own a gun.

 

[RF667799]

Data says otherwise:

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don't own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don't.

med.stanford.edu

"Owning a handgun is associated with a dramatically elevated risk of suicide, according to new Stanford research that followed 26 million California residents over a 12-year period."

Guns and suicide: A fatal link | Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45

www.hsph.harvard.edu

“Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

Are you able to revise your belief based on new data?
@rahl has demonstrated he won't revise his false claims, despite evidence to the contrary, and none to refute it.

What part do you want gun control to play in suicide prevention?

 

[Mach]

Are belts and ropes generally easy to access at home?

Why are you asking that when it's irrelevant/accounted for in the study (generally speaking)
Did you see the studies on this I linked? They were the first search results, I'm sure we can stack them up.

This risk was driven by a much higher rate of suicide by firearm — not by higher rates of suicide by other methods.

What do you think a study like this takes into account? Wouldn't everyone in the study genearlly have similar access to belts/ropes, and yet it doesn't show the risk that handguns do, does it?

 

[zsu2357]

This is getting tiresome. I'd bet serious money he hasn't even read it, just parroting someone else's taking point. "Defensive use" according to the author, included anyone who "felt" they were safer because they had a firearm.

Do you really think that a DGU is sticking a gun in someones face? Let's say I reach to get something off of a shelf /supermarket or where ever and a would be robber that was going to follow me out saw a sidearm (I'm more careful then that) and he decides bad idea (so someone else gets busted up). Couple of days later him and his criminal friend need some cash and the 'friend' sees me and the other friend says no he's armed. Okay there's two [2] DGUs I don't even know about. I was safer because I had a firearm.

 

[Mach]

Look if you are planning on killing yourself then what difference does it make how you do it.

It matters, based on the data. You haven't evidenced otherwise, you're just repeating yourself.

 

[zsu2357]

And other studies don't embrace the impulsive theory of suicide.

What Role Does Impulsivity Play in Suicide? | Military Suicide Research Consortium

msrc.fsu.edu

Are belts and ropes generally easy to access at home?

I wonder how many people read these studies before killing themselves? I know if I read all that stuff about guns and suicide and I mean all of it, shit I would probably forget about or just go to sleep and forget.

 

[Rucker61]

Why are you asking that when it's irrelevant/accounted for in the study (generally speaking)
Did you see the studies on this I linked? They were the first search results, I'm sure we can stack them up.

I've seen lots of studies. There are enough that have different results not to automatically pick one side. Only a fraction of a percent of handgun owners commit suicide in any year. Half of all suicides are committed by non-firearm methods.

What do you think a study like this takes into account? Wouldn't everyone in the study genearlly have similar access to belts/ropes, and yet it doesn't show the risk that handguns do, does it?

Not having a handgun doesn't mean other methods aren't immediately available.

What gun control do you want to impose based on your handgun suicide studies?

 

[Mach]

I've seen lots of studies. There are enough that have different results not to automatically pick one side.

So basically you don't believe the evidence provided. OK, I can't make you.

Not having a handgun doesn't mean other methods aren't immediately available.

Which hasn't shown to be relevant in the studies. You keep typing it, but it's just as irrelevant now as it was the last time you typed it.
Why are you doing that?

What gun control do you want to impose based on your handgun suicide studies?

Right now I'm content to set the record straight on the misinformation.
People accepting the reality would be a good start.

 

[Rucker61]

So basically you don't believe the evidence provided. OK, I can't make you.

Even 8 times a very small number is a very small number.

Which hasn't shown to be relevant in the studies. You keep typing it, but it's just as irrelevant now as it was the last time you typed it.
Why are you doing that?

Why aren't you paying attention? Since 1999, the gun suicide rate, with 200 million more guns available, only grew 16%. The hanging/suffocation suicide rate doubled, 100% growth. Even with all those guns available suicide victims are increasingly using non-firearm means for suicide. 13,000 victims a year vs 20,000 isn't 8 to 1 in regards to those who choose either method.

Right now I'm content to set the record straight on the misinformation.
People accepting the reality would be a good start.

Well, this is a gun control forum. Either you've got some gun control goal in mind or you're off topic.

 

[Rucker61]

Data says otherwise:

Handgun ownership associated with much higher suicide risk

Men who own handguns are eight times more likely to die of gun suicides than men who don't own handguns, and women who own handguns are 35 times more likely than women who don't.

med.stanford.edu

"Owning a handgun is associated with a dramatically elevated risk of suicide, according to new Stanford research that followed 26 million California residents over a 12-year period."

Perhaps interestingly, there were 19,345 firearm suicides in California over this time period, 2004-2016. There were 30,265 non-firearm suicides.