Crises of Capitalism

[Donc]

The term "fair share" must have been focus grouped approved because those words are used often but never defined. What is fair share about 47% of income earning families not paying any FIT? Class warfare is all Obama has because he cannot run on his record.

Still willing to discuss this with you.

 

[Boo Radley]

Do you understand the rest of the story, "reducing tax loopholes?" Did Simpson and Bowles propose a reduction in rates/

Yep, which increases revenue. And what did I say? Increase tax revenue and cut spending. Overall, it will be an increase in actual tax dollars collected.

 

[Conservative]

Still willing to discuss this with you.

bring it on, define fair share

 

[Conservative]

Yep, which increases revenue. And what did I say? Increase tax revenue and cut spending. Overall, it will be an increase in actual tax dollars collected.

You didn't say this in a post on this thread?

I'm answering how to deal with the debt, which includes tax increases and spending cuts

You don't have to increase taxes to increase revenue

 

[Boo Radley]

You didn't say this in a post on this thread?



You don't have to increase taxes to increase revenue

I've repeated the claim many times, more often using tax revenue. But it doesn't matter hwo we get there, for those paying, it would mean them paying more. I'm not sure you understand that.

 

[Donc]

bring it on, define fair share

What is fair share about 47% of income earning families not paying any FIT

looks like you found out what a surplus is .Thatsa start.:rock

I believe we should start by defining tax shall we?

 

[Conservative]

looks like you found out what a surplus is .Thatsa start.:rock

I believe we should start by defining tax shall we?

no, actually we need to start by defining the role of the Federal Govt. and the state and local governments to determine how much revenue is actually needed. Then you define what the actual taxes fund before addressing FIT

 

[Donc]

no, actually we need to start by defining the role of the Federal Govt. and the state and local governments to determine how much revenue is actually needed. Then you define what the actual taxes fund before addressing FIT

I coulda sworn that you were in doubt about the amount of tax the poorer among us paid. Does the term 47% ring a bell in the ole dome?

 

[Conservative]

I coulda sworn that you were in doubt about the amount of tax the poorer among us paid. Does the term 47% ring a bell in the ole dome?

Sure it rings a bell, it comes from the Treasury Dept. and it represents the INCOME EARNING HOUSHOLDS that don't pay a single dime in Federal Income Taxes. Are you telling me that someone who earns income isn't capable of paying any Federal Income Taxes? That is why definition as to the roles of the various goverments are required

 

[Donc]

Sure it rings a bell, it comes from the Treasury Dept. and it represents the INCOME EARNING HOUSHOLDS that don't pay a single dime in Federal Income Taxes.

What do you think that the poorer amongst us were paying in 2007?

 

[Conservative]

What do you think that the poorer amongst us were paying in 2007?

Why is that relevant? This is 2011 and going into 2012. you seem to have a problem defining the role of the Federal Govt. Do you honestly believe we need a 3.7 trillion dollar budget and if so why do we need 50 sovereign states?

 

[Donc]

Why is that relevant? This is 2011 and going into 2012.

The reason its relevant is that first $150 billion dollar stimulus package, the one pushed by, and signed by dubya in January of 08, had all of the goodies that your bitching about now. The goodies were, $600 for individuals, $1,200 for couples and $300 a child. Kinda hard to pay anything besides SS and Medicare, when your making poverty level wages.


The 47% figure a big ass canard anyway,drummed up by the propaganda ministers of the right,probably named "some say on fox news " . In 2007, before the recession started 38% was the number of those not paying income taxes. Besides according to the Congressional Budget Office about 10 percent of all households pay no federal taxes. Most of those are on SS,or some kinda disability.

 

[Conservative]

The reason its relevant is that first $150 billion dollar stimulus package, the one pushed by, and signed by dubya in January of 08, had all of the goodies that your bitching about now. The goodies were, $600 for individuals, $1,200 for couples and $300 a child. Kinda hard to pay anything besides SS and Medicare, when your making poverty level wages.


The 47% figure a big ass canard anyway,drummed up by the propaganda ministers of the right,probably named "some say on fox news " . In 2007, before the recession started 38% was the number of those not paying income taxes. Besides according to the Congressional Budget Office about 10 percent of all households pay no federal taxes. Most of those are on SS,or some kinda disability.

Is the Huffington Post a rightwing Fox News site?


46 Percent of Americans Exempt From Federal Income Tax in 2011

Still waiting for the role of the Federal, State, and Local Governments and why we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt?

 

[Donc]

Is the Huffington Post a rightwing Fox News site?


46 Percent of Americans Exempt From Federal Income Tax in 2011

Still waiting for the role of the Federal, State, and Local Governments and why we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt?

I guess this quote slipped right by ya eh? "Did they realize that being poor, while perhaps an attractive tax shelter, tended to come with such hard-to-bear downsides as not knowing where your next meal will come from?"

As well as this one.” Those in the bottom quintile have incomes of less than $16,812. “


Of course this on slipped by as well,” In most cases, tax filers who don’t pay federal income tax are still on the hook for other taxes. They can still be responsible for payroll taxes, withheld from their paychecks, and for excise taxes on gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and other goods. And they may have to pay income tax at the state or local level. “


Then there is this group…who if I felt like doing some math and a bit of diggin I would more that likely come up with proof that they have managed to skate out from under more taxes than the entire bottom half. Thanks for the link…I might bring it to “Obvious Childs” attention.:thumbs:

“There are 78,000 non-paying units in the top 95th to 99th income percentile, 24,000 in the top 1 percentile, and 3,000 in the top tenth of a percentile. “

 

[TheDemSocialist]

What does any of that have to do with class warfare which was the issue?

Just pointing out how big a hypocrite Reagan was.

And you never answered my question or responded to one of my points:


How was firing thousands of workers and banning them from any federal work making us safer? The workers went on strike because their work was not safe with grueling hours...

 

[Karl]

Is the Huffington Post a rightwing Fox News site?

46 Percent of Americans Exempt From Federal Income Tax in 2011

Still waiting for the role of the Federal, State, and Local Governments and why we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt?

If I recall correctly, you don't want to acknowledge the FICA contributions made by those in the 46% that do not pay federal income taxes, so a $3.7 trillion dollar figure for the budget -- in reference to them -- is intellectually dishonest.

Subtracting the $1.2 trillion spent on Social Security and Medicare in the proposed 2012 budget would give us a more honest figure of $2.5 trillion (again, with respect to the 46%).

But still, that is not completely honest. Given that total federal income tax collections (again, envisioned in the 2012 budget) are only 43% ($1.14 trillion) of the total collections, including corporate taxes, excise taxes, etc, of $2.6 trillion, then the most honest figure to use in reference to those 46% who pay no 'FIT' would be 43% of $3.7 trillion, or $1.6 trillion.

It would seem that the right wing outrage over the 46% is 131% ($2.1 trillion) overstated. Shocking, that :2razz:



2012 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Conservative]

I guess this quote slipped right by ya eh? "Did they realize that being poor, while perhaps an attractive tax shelter, tended to come with such hard-to-bear downsides as not knowing where your next meal will come from?"

As well as this one.” Those in the bottom quintile have incomes of less than $16,812. “


Of course this on slipped by as well,” In most cases, tax filers who don’t pay federal income tax are still on the hook for other taxes. They can still be responsible for payroll taxes, withheld from their paychecks, and for excise taxes on gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and other goods. And they may have to pay income tax at the state or local level. “


Then there is this group…who if I felt like doing some math and a bit of diggin I would more that likely come up with proof that they have managed to skate out from under more taxes than the entire bottom half. Thanks for the link…I might bring it to “Obvious Childs” attention.:thumbs:

“There are 78,000 non-paying units in the top 95th to 99th income percentile, 24,000 in the top 1 percentile, and 3,000 in the top tenth of a percentile. “

NO, it is you that misses the point, if you want revenue and believe we have a revenue problem, people that don't pay a dime can pay something, anything and should. I don't think we have a revenue problem but rather a spending problem. I asked you why we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt. and the silence is deafening.

 

[Conservative]

Just pointing out how big a hypocrite Reagan was.

And you never answered my question or responded to one of my points:


How was firing thousands of workers and banning them from any federal work making us safer? The workers went on strike because their work was not safe with grueling hours...

Having them go on strike made us less safer and firing them was the right thing to do. They were replaced so how is that class warfare which was the issue in the first place? That is leadership. public unions have no place in the work force, FDR knew it and Reagan found out why. He was the leader that liberals can only dream about today.

 

[Conservative]

If I recall correctly, you don't want to acknowledge the FICA contributions made by those in the 46% that do not pay federal income taxes, so a $3.7 trillion dollar figure for the budget -- in reference to them -- is intellectually dishonest.

Subtracting the $1.2 trillion spent on Social Security and Medicare in the proposed 2012 budget would give us a more honest figure of $2.5 trillion (again, with respect to the 46%).

But still, that is not completely honest. Given that total federal income tax collections (again, envisioned in the 2012 budget) are only 43% ($1.14 trillion) of the total collections, including corporate taxes, excise taxes, etc, of $2.6 trillion, then the most honest figure to use in reference to those 46% who pay no 'FIT' would be 43% of $3.7 trillion, or $1.6 trillion.

It would seem that the right wing outrage over the 46% is 131% ($2.1 trillion) overstated. Shocking, that :2razz:



2012 United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, you seem to lack the basic understanding of what FICA funds. That is their SS and Medicare which is like putting money aside for retirement. Guess you don't think about those things as a liberal. Now, "your" President wants to cut funding for SS and Medicare and pay for it out of Federal income taxes from taxing the rich. That only makes sense to a liberal, not any thinking individual.

 

[Donc]

QUOTE Conservative

NO, it is you that misses the point, if you want revenue and believe we have a revenue problem, people that don't pay a dime can pay something, anything and should.

Lets make a deal. when the following companies start paying taxes,then is when we start gouging the poor for a few quid.:2wave:

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

 

[Conservative]

Lets make a deal. when the following companies start paying taxes,then is when we start gouging the poor for a few quid.:2wave:

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

You just cannot get over the revenue issue, i don't give a damn who pays what and how much. Why do we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt? Seems liberals have a different role for the Federal Govt. than the Founders envisioned. 3.7 trillion is ridiculous and the sign of a govt. out of control.

 

[Donc]

QUOTE Conservative

You just cannot get over the revenue issue, i don't give a damn who pays what and how much.

You say you don't give a damn, yet this was the original post that i responded to. :shock:

What is fair share about 47% of income earning families not paying any FIT?

 

[Conservative]

You say you don't give a damn, yet this was the original post that i responded to. :shock:

Not sure how many times I have to respond to that statement, but my point is in regards to the attempts to raise the taxes on the people already paying 38% of all the FIT collected and that is the point. Looks like it went right over your head. if you believe we have a revenue problem then go after the ones not paying anything versus punishing those who are paying the most now and trying to extract more.

Still waiting for an explanation as to why we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt?

 

[Donc]

QUOTE Conservative

Not sure how many times I have to respond to that statement,

No you didn't.

but my point is in regards to the attempts to raise the taxes on the people already paying 38% of all the FIT collected and that is the point.

why not raise taxes as a percent of ALL INCOME then? Would you consider that fair?

if you believe we have a revenue problem then go after the ones not paying anything versus punishing those who are paying the most now and trying to extract more.

See the above paragraph.

Still waiting for an explanation as to why we need a 3.7 trillion dollar Federal Govt?

Lets keep the goal post where its at for a little while longer.:2wave:

What is fair share about 47% of income earning families not paying any FIT?

 

[Conservative]

No you didn't.


why not raise taxes as a percent of ALL INCOME then? Would you consider that fair?




See the above paragraph.





Lets keep the goal post where its at for a little while longer.:2wave:

not going to let the revenue issue go, are you? A good start would be to implement the Simpson/Bowles Commission findings of lowering rates and eliminating deductions for all income earners. That isn't going to happen though as liberals need to continue to buy votes from those not paying any FIT by keeping them dependent.

The bigger problem is not one of revenue but instead size of Govt. many of the expenses of the Federal Govt. are duplicated at the state level thus are really a waste of money. The biggest mistake made was creating a unified budget that put FICA, Excise taxes into the Federal Budget to be used by the politicians. That has given them way too much power and why things aren't likely to change very soon.