• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Covid: USA VS EUROPE

TU Curmudgeon said:
NOVEMBER SIERRA SIERRA



The data represents the data. Nothing more and nothing less.



In short,
​
"I will 'listen to reason' when you produce something that is impossible to produce and until that time what ever I say is to be taken as 100% gospel despite the fact that I have no evidence to back it up."​



Unfortunately for the whole structure of your "rebuttal" that is not what I am asserting at all.



Since it isn't "my conclusion" at all, why should that bother me?



Well, possibly, if I were to have presented the conclusion that you say I was presenting I might give some consideration to that question.

Click to expand...

So you agree that the outcomes do not support your assertion that the people are NOT following the mitigation measures.

That's all I was pointing out.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
While I'm not quite yet ready to completely write off a combination of "weekend data lag" and "The Christmas Effect", I am becoming hopeful that THIS wave has crested (or, at least, will have crested by mid January). This is the first time in a long time that I have seen the 10 day average of the 7 day averages coming down.
Click to expand...


It looks like a day-date peak of 12/16, which is consistent with the approx 30-day lag of my 1918 pandemic curve overlay peaks. But our Xmas/NY behavior could very well see Twin Peaks for this curve. In fact, more likely than not.
 
In Cuba, there are clinical trials of 4 vaccines. One unique, does not require needle insertion.
Damn socialist totalitarianism. Cursed soviet medicine!

Eqa3y7QW4AE1jCT
 
snakestretcher said:
They did. Why else am I seeing people partying, wandering around maskless, travelling around in big numbers and spreading the disease?
Click to expand...

Sounds like the folks in your part of the UK have relaxed. Too bad. They were so close.

I watched a TV commentator discuss the possibility of any individual being the last one to die from Covid. So close to safety, but still a victim.
 
code1211 said:
Sounds like the folks in your part of the UK have relaxed. Too bad. They were so close.

I watched a TV commentator discuss the possibility of any individual being the last one to die from Covid. So close to safety, but still a victim.
Click to expand...

The UK government has never really taken it seriously and that is the root problem. The government bungled this from the start. While all other countries banned flights, the UK was open. While countries put in restrictions and fines.. the UK did a half hearted attempt. Spain had a minimum fine of 300 euros.. the UK ... 20 pounds, at the beginning of the pandemic.

When Boris himself got the bug, then the UK government started to take it more seriously but too late. Even now, they are more interested in promoting British nationalism, than doing anything with the collapse of the hospitals in many areas. They in fact are closing the Nightingale temporary hospitals that cost 100s of millions to build, because... not enough nurses and doctors. So now days, people are being put in the gift shop or staying in the ambulance in London and dying there, all in a while there are hundreds of beds available at these Nightingale hospitals.

I remember at the start of the pandemic.. pictures from Tesco of people in line, not distancing and no masks. It took months for the government to mandate masks on public transport and even then it was not mandated for the freaking drivers. The UK government has bungled the response far more than most governments around the world.. and yes no guvernement is perfect, even New Zealand.
 
code1211 said:
Why not?
Click to expand...

We have already been around that mulberry bush at least twice.

However, I will try one more time.

The use of the preventive/ameliorative measures came TOO LATE in the game to have the effect that those who are claiming that they are totally ineffectual claim that they were supposed to have.

Those protective/ameliorative measures NEVER HAD THE EFFECT that those who are claiming that they are totally ineffectual claim that they were supposed to have AND the people advocating them never said that they would.

I have no doubt that the effects of COVID-19 would be at least an order of magnitude worse if the American people hadn't FINALLY gotten their thumbs out and started to apply them on a more wide-spread and consistent basis. BUT, no one is going to know to what extent the increase in the use (and consistency of use) of those protective/ameliorative measures likely reduced the American death toll for some time.

Quite frankly the American medical care system is too damn busy actually attempting to keep people from dying to waste a lot of time figuring out how much worse the situation would be if everyone took the advice of "Claque Trump" and simply carried on as if it were December 2019.

Yes, I know that you are wedded to the "COVID-19 is all a big hoax." theory and that you actually believe that the best way of dealing with that hoax is to completely abandon all protective/ameliorative measures so that everyone can "get on with their lives", but the data proves that both of those are, quite frankly, "boneheaded stupid". Of course, since you, like **D*O*C*T*O*R** Mashmont firmly believe that the data is all lies, you don't agree with that.
 
PeteEU said:
The UK government has never really taken it seriously and that is the root problem. The government bungled this from the start. While all other countries banned flights, the UK was open. While countries put in restrictions and fines.. the UK did a half hearted attempt. Spain had a minimum fine of 300 euros.. the UK ... 20 pounds, at the beginning of the pandemic.

When Boris himself got the bug, then the UK government started to take it more seriously but too late. Even now, they are more interested in promoting British nationalism, than doing anything with the collapse of the hospitals in many areas. They in fact are closing the Nightingale temporary hospitals that cost 100s of millions to build, because... not enough nurses and doctors. So now days, people are being put in the gift shop or staying in the ambulance in London and dying there, all in a while there are hundreds of beds available at these Nightingale hospitals.

I remember at the start of the pandemic.. pictures from Tesco of people in line, not distancing and no masks. It took months for the government to mandate masks on public transport and even then it was not mandated for the freaking drivers. The UK government has bungled the response far more than most governments around the world.. and yes no guvernement is perfect, even New Zealand.
Click to expand...

Were the mitigation steps you recommend or desire still ignored in the lead up to the third wave hitting or were they already being employed by the great majority of folks that you saw around you?

Around here, the mitigation steps were being widely employed, but the third wave occurred in spite of the widely employed measures.

As I posted here before, the mitigation recommendations are used by most, but the third wave happened in any event.

Thank God, and Trump, for recognizing the actual threat(s) posed by the virus. Without an effective vaccine rising from the implementation Operation Warp Speed programs, we'd ALL be well and truly screwed.

Now, we have the soon to be calculated effectiveness of the vaccine to measure. With luck, it will be more effective than the masks.

Cold and Flu Season is only now just starting. The effectiveness or lack of effectiveness should be easy to note.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
We have already been around that mulberry bush at least twice.

However, I will try one more time.

The use of the preventive/ameliorative measures came TOO LATE in the game to have the effect that those who are claiming that they are totally ineffectual claim that they were supposed to have.

Those protective/ameliorative measures NEVER HAD THE EFFECT that those who are claiming that they are totally ineffectual claim that they were supposed to have AND the people advocating them never said that they would.

I have no doubt that the effects of COVID-19 would be at least an order of magnitude worse if the American people hadn't FINALLY gotten their thumbs out and started to apply them on a more wide-spread and consistent basis. BUT, no one is going to know to what extent the increase in the use (and consistency of use) of those protective/ameliorative measures likely reduced the American death toll for some time.

Quite frankly the American medical care system is too damn busy actually attempting to keep people from dying to waste a lot of time figuring out how much worse the situation would be if everyone took the advice of "Claque Trump" and simply carried on as if it were December 2019.

Yes, I know that you are wedded to the "COVID-19 is all a big hoax." theory and that you actually believe that the best way of dealing with that hoax is to completely abandon all protective/ameliorative measures so that everyone can "get on with their lives", but the data proves that both of those are, quite frankly, "boneheaded stupid". Of course, since you, like **D*O*C*T*O*R** Mashmont firmly believe that the data is all lies, you don't agree with that.
Click to expand...

What you know and what is true are connected in no meaningful way.
 
code1211 said:
Were the mitigation steps you recommend or desire still ignored in the lead up to the third wave hitting or were they already being employed by the great majority of folks that you saw around you?
Click to expand...

The 3rd wave has not hit yet.. still in 2nd wave in the UK, and first in the US.

Around here, the mitigation steps were being widely employed, but the third wave occurred in spite of the widely employed measures.
Click to expand...

Mitigation steps employed in the US? Where? No national mask mandate, no shut downs in the hardest hit areas, no national coordination and even no state coordination. Lack of action by the Trump administration to make needed PPE and other stuff and now we are seeing a totally failed roll out of the vaccine.... so again what mitigation?

As I posted here before, the mitigation recommendations are used by most, but the third wave happened in any event.
Click to expand...

The next wave happened/is happening due to people getting comfortable after seeing the numbers decline to single and double digits (in Europe), a more infectious mutation, but also in the case of Europe... certain areas of countries where local government claimed victory but in fact did not have the virus under full control.

Thank God, and Trump, for recognizing the actual threat(s) posed by the virus. Without an effective vaccine rising from the implementation Operation Warp Speed programs, we'd ALL be well and truly screwed.
Click to expand...

Eh? what alternative universe are you in? The first vaccine did not use "Operation Warp Speed", nor did the new one out of Europe. Maybe Moderna used it some what, but that I am un sure about. Also Trump has never recognized the threat, even after he got the bloody thing.

Now, we have the soon to be calculated effectiveness of the vaccine to measure. With luck, it will be more effective than the masks.
Click to expand...

Masks are effective, but can only be effective in public spaces if all wear it.. that is a problem in certain places when there is a large portion of the population who refuse to do so. The current spread is primarily happening (in Europe and the US as well) in private spaces where masks are not being worn because "hey my sister, who I see once a month, is okay" attitude. That is where a vaccine will come into the picture.. BUT, like with masks, there are anti-Vaxers who will pose a massive threat to the effectiveness of the vaccine in the short and medium term.

And then there are idiotic politicians like Boris Johnson of the UK, who have announced that to get as many people vaccinated with the first dose, they are pushing the second dose for everyone. Problem is that the manufacture of the vaccine says that is not a good idea, but the morons are pushing for it anyways.

Cold and Flu Season is only now just starting. The effectiveness or lack of effectiveness should be easy to note.
Click to expand...

Cold and flu season has been going on for 2 months now, if not 3. Thanks to masks and social distancing the amount of flu in society has drastically gone down since the flu is far far far far harder to catch when wearing a mask, washing hands and not being around people.
 
code1211 said:
What you know and what is true are connected in no meaningful way.
Click to expand...

Since you don't appear to understand what the old saw about locking the barn door after the horses have been stolen means, I can quite understand why you don't quite understand that widespread use of protective measures AFTER giving COVID-19 an almost free run doesn't prevent anyone who is already infected from catching COVID-19 AND also provided a wider pool of potential infection sources.

21-01-01 C1 - 7 Day Average GRAPH.JPG
21-01-01 C3 - Daily NEW Case Averages.JPG
21-01-01 B3 - Our World in Data CDC G-8 plus China GRAPH.JPG
(More charts and graphs at Daily Statistical Summary of COVID-19)​
If you look closely at that last graph you will see something unusual about the US line - it is getting steeper. The dips in the top two graphs are (most likely) due to a combination of "weekend reporting lag", "holiday reporting lag", and "The Christmas Effect" (which is the "reluctance" of people to die on dates that have particular significance).

Now I will admit that it is highly possible that YOU are seeing an increase in compliance where YOU live. That, however, is not the same thing as saying that there is an increase in compliance in ALL areas.
 
PeteEU said:
The 3rd wave has not hit yet.. still in 2nd wave in the UK, and first in the US.



Mitigation steps employed in the US? Where? No national mask mandate, no shut downs in the hardest hit areas, no national coordination and even no state coordination. Lack of action by the Trump administration to make needed PPE and other stuff and now we are seeing a totally failed roll out of the vaccine.... so again what mitigation?



The next wave happened/is happening due to people getting comfortable after seeing the numbers decline to single and double digits (in Europe), a more infectious mutation, but also in the case of Europe... certain areas of countries where local government claimed victory but in fact did not have the virus under full control.



Eh? what alternative universe are you in? The first vaccine did not use "Operation Warp Speed", nor did the new one out of Europe. Maybe Moderna used it some what, but that I am un sure about. Also Trump has never recognized the threat, even after he got the bloody thing.



Masks are effective, but can only be effective in public spaces if all wear it.. that is a problem in certain places when there is a large portion of the population who refuse to do so. The current spread is primarily happening (in Europe and the US as well) in private spaces where masks are not being worn because "hey my sister, who I see once a month, is okay" attitude. That is where a vaccine will come into the picture.. BUT, like with masks, there are anti-Vaxers who will pose a massive threat to the effectiveness of the vaccine in the short and medium term.

And then there are idiotic politicians like Boris Johnson of the UK, who have announced that to get as many people vaccinated with the first dose, they are pushing the second dose for everyone. Problem is that the manufacture of the vaccine says that is not a good idea, but the morons are pushing for it anyways.



Cold and flu season has been going on for 2 months now, if not 3. Thanks to masks and social distancing the amount of flu in society has drastically gone down since the flu is far far far far harder to catch when wearing a mask, washing hands and not being around people.
Click to expand...

I have to admit, I only got about half way through your response(s).

You level of ignorance borders on insanity.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Since you don't appear to understand what the old saw about locking the barn door after the horses have been stolen means, I can quite understand why you don't quite understand that widespread use of protective measures AFTER giving COVID-19 an almost free run doesn't prevent anyone who is already infected from catching COVID-19 AND also provided a wider pool of potential infection sources.


If you look closely at that last graph you will see something unusual about the US line - it is getting steeper. The dips in the top two graphs are (most likely) due to a combination of "weekend reporting lag", "holiday reporting lag", and "The Christmas Effect" (which is the "reluctance" of people to die on dates that have particular significance).

Now I will admit that it is highly possible that YOU are seeing an increase in compliance where YOU live. That, however, is not the same thing as saying that there is an increase in compliance in ALL areas.
Click to expand...

The increase in the use of mitigation measures, masks in particular is obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

WHY you deny that the use of mitigation measures has increased compared to May, as an example, is beyond my ability to grasp.
 
code1211 said:
The increase in the use of mitigation measures, masks in particular is obvious to anyone with eyes to see.
Click to expand...

Quite likely. However that increase does NOT prove your "point" that those mitigation measures are totally useless.

code1211 said:
WHY you deny that the use of mitigation measures has increased compared to May, as an example, is beyond my ability to grasp.
Click to expand...

I quite understand that you would be unable to grasp a position that I have not taken.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Quite likely. However that increase does NOT prove your "point" that those mitigation measures are totally useless.



I quite understand that you would be unable to grasp a position that I have not taken.
Click to expand...

Can you please cut and paste the post in which I said this?

Hint: I NEVER said this.
 
code1211 said:
Can you please cut and paste the post in which I said this?

Hint: I NEVER said this.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe you only said that the mitigation measures "were useless" and not "were TOTALLY useless".
 
From my rather limited knowledge of the English language, but more than less than zero as in the case of Donald Trump, I believe "useless" and "TOTALLY useless" cannot mean anything else than the same thing, the latter being redundant. However, that there is no diff in meaning may not change the fact that code did not use the word "totally". Calling TU out on a verbatim technicality. A foul with no penalty or change in game clock. Proceed.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Well, maybe you only said that the mitigation measures "were useless" and not "were TOTALLY useless".
Click to expand...

Then cut, paste and post THAT from an actual post.

I merely note that the mitigation recommendations seem to be more widely used in the last few months than in the previous months and yet, statistically, the worst impacts have occurred in the last few months.

Observing reality is only that. Observing reality.

Why do so many folks choose to argue with Straw Men rather than actually discuss topics? Why do YOU do this?
 
code1211 said:
Then cut, paste and post THAT from an actual post.

I merely note that the mitigation recommendations seem to be more widely used in the last few months than in the previous months and yet, statistically, the worst impacts have occurred in the last few months.

Observing reality is only that. Observing reality.

Why do so many folks choose to argue with Straw Men rather than actually discuss topics? Why do YOU do this?
Click to expand...

There are three possible meanings for "the mitigation recommendations seem to be more widely used in the last few months than in the previous months and yet, statistically, the worst impacts have occurred in the last few months" and those are:

  1. The mitigation efforts have increased and so have the adverse impacts, so that means that the mitigation efforts are actually making things worse (read as "worse than useless").

  2. The mitigation efforts have increased and so have the adverse impacts, so that means that the mitigation efforts are of no use (read as "useless").

    and

  3. The mitigation efforts have increased and so have the adverse impacts, so that means that the mitigation efforts are possibly keeping the adverse impacts from being even worse than they would have been if the mitigation efforts had not been increased.

Which of those do you mean when you write that you "merely note" that "the mitigation recommendations seem to be more widely used in the last few months than in the previous months and yet, statistically, the worst impacts have occurred in the last few months"?

The meaning that you intend to convey that I draw from the tenor of your posts is the second, with the first coming close behind, and with the third being the exact opposite - but I could be wrong, so please clarify.
 
You have been captured by code's labyrinth. Forcing you to get 'round another obstacle of his after you getting by the last. Only getting deeper into the labyrinth. Akin to the double or nothing bet. Keep betting, keep losing. The constant loser wins once and calls the entire debate a win.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
There are three possible meanings for "the mitigation recommendations seem to be more widely used in the last few months than in the previous months and yet, statistically, the worst impacts have occurred in the last few months" and those are:

  1. The mitigation efforts have increased and so have the adverse impacts, so that means that the mitigation efforts are actually making things worse (read as "worse than useless").

  2. The mitigation efforts have increased and so have the adverse impacts, so that means that the mitigation efforts are of no use (read as "useless").

    and

  3. The mitigation efforts have increased and so have the adverse impacts, so that means that the mitigation efforts are possibly keeping the adverse impacts from being even worse than they would have been if the mitigation efforts had not been increased.

Which of those do you mean when you write that you "merely note" that "the mitigation recommendations seem to be more widely used in the last few months than in the previous months and yet, statistically, the worst impacts have occurred in the last few months"?

The meaning that you intend to convey that I draw from the tenor of your posts is the second, with the first coming close behind, and with the third being the exact opposite - but I could be wrong, so please clarify.
Click to expand...

The meaning that I intend to convey is the meaning that I convey. When I state, pretty clearly I think, that two things are happening simultaneously, that is what i have conveyed.

In this case, I have conveyed that the recommended mitigation measures are being widely employed during the time when the worst onset of bad result is being recorded.

No implication mad. Just the statements of pretty obvious fact.

Also, my personal observations of a very narrow sliver of society showing that the employed mitigation measures did not work to stave off infection. Again, nothing implied. Simply writing my observations.

The direction from the government says quite clearly that employing the measures will "slow the spread". I DO question the effectiveness of the mitigation recommendations.

Seeing the actual real world facts in light of the actual real world recommendations would make anyone comparing promises to results question the effectiveness.

The question that I have for you is this: Why are you so committed to believing in the effectiveness of the recommendations from the government given the obvious failure to protect promised in their recommendations?

There is a saying in the south, like so many in the south, that is very wise: "That dog don't hunt". What it means is, simply, what you are being told is proven to be false to at least some degree.

They are telling us that there are specific steps we are mandated to take that will protect us. Well, that dog don't hunt.

There are more people infected and more people dead from the virus that at any point in the national epidemic.

If the mitigation measures are 100% effective, then the recorded statistics must be lies. If the effectiveness of the mitigation measures is pretty weak, then the recorded statistics make sense.

Are you going to continue to deny the science? If so, why so?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom