• Please keep all posts on the Rittenhouse verdict here: Rittenhouse Verdict. Note the moderator warnings in the thread. The thread will be heavily moderated with a zero tolerance policy for any baiting, flaming, trolling or other rule breaks. Stick to the topic and not the other posters. Thank you.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Could the bulge in the wall of WTC 7 have been a sign of instability?

Tony Szamboti

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 26, 2012
Messages
1,017
Reaction score
338
Location
Philadelphia, Pa metropolitan area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Of course, most of us who have studied the building collapses in NYC have heard about the bulge in one of the walls of WTC 7 that firemen put a transit on.

There are a number of people who feel it was a sign that the building was unstable, but they never explain how it could have been and what makes them believe it was or could have been.

I started this thread so we could give those who believe it was a sign of instability a chance to explain why they believe it was.

The kind of discussion I would like to see is some explanations for how they believe the bulge was caused and how it would cause instability in the the structure.

There are two individuals who claim it was a sign of instability that I would certainly like to hear more specific thoughts from on this, MarkF and Fledermaus.
 
Last edited:

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Of course, most of us who have studied the building collapses in NYC have heard about the bulge in one of the walls of WTC 7 that firemen put a transit on.

There are a number of people who feel it was a sign that the building was unstable, but they never explain how it could have been and what makes them believe it was or could have been.

I started this thread so we could give those who believe it was a sign of instability a chance to explain why they believe it was.

The kind of discussion I would like to see is some explanations for how they believe the bulge was caused and how it would cause instability in the the structure.

There are two individuals who claim it was a sign of instability that I would certainly like to hear more specific thoughts from on this, MarkF and Fledermaus.

Yes. It was a sign of instability.
 

Mark F

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
8,814
Reaction score
3,835
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Of course, most of us who have studied the building collapses in NYC have heard about the bulge in one of the walls of WTC 7 that firemen put a transit on.

There are a number of people who feel it was a sign that the building was unstable, but they never explain how it could have been and what makes them believe it was or could have been.

I started this thread so we could give those who believe it was a sign of instability a chance to explain why they believe it was.

The kind of discussion I would like to see is some explanations for how they believe the bulge was caused and how it would cause instability in the the structure.

There are two individuals who claim it was a sign of instability that I would certainly like to hear more specific thoughts from on this, MarkF and Fledermaus.

Even after I point out what is wrong with what Tony is claiming he doesn't correct the error.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...bsite-launched-w-111-a-14.html#post1065783998

However, if a firefighter describes a building that is creaking, moaning and moving with a 3-story bulge in one face we can ignore everything but the bulge ,...
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
THE SIGNS OF IMPENDING BUILDING COLLAPSE
07/01/2000


BY TOM BRENNAN

Building movement most times is very subtle. But a moving building is a collapsing building. For what other signs-in addition to cracks, bulges, leaning walls-should we be looking?

TOM BRENNAN has more than 35 years of fire service experience. His career spans more than 20 years with the Fire Department of New York as well as four years as chief of the Waterbury (CT) Fire Department. He was the editor of Fire Engineering for eight years and currently is a technical editor. He is co-editor of The Fire Chief's Handbook, Fifth Edition (Fire Engineering Books, 1995). He is the recipient of the 1998 Fire Engineering Lifetime Achievement Award.
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
28,601
Reaction score
11,970
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Can you guys get into a little more detail on what you think would have caused the bulge to begin with? and why it would then cause instability?

Your the engineer. Why don't you give us your opinion.

Also explain how many CD of buildings produced bulges way before the collapse?
Or how the planters of the explosives knew to protect the explosives from fires that might occur for several hours.
 

Tony Szamboti

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 26, 2012
Messages
1,017
Reaction score
338
Location
Philadelphia, Pa metropolitan area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Your the engineer. Why don't you give us your opinion.

Also explain how many CD of buildings produced bulges way before the collapse?
Or how the planters of the explosives knew to protect the explosives from fires that might occur for several hours.

I did say I think it was just the non-structural curtain wall expanding between its connections due to temperature. Since it was constrained at the connections it could only expand outward. I don't think it had any structural implications.
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I did say I think it was just the non-structural curtain wall expanding between its connections due to temperature. Since it was constrained at the connections it could only expand outward. I don't think it had any structural implications.

I can't believe an engineer cannot understand the concept.
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
You haven't explained your concept yet.

It isn't "my" concept.

It is the concept accepted by firefighters that building movement is an indicator of instability.

Repeated since you must have missed it...

THE SIGNS OF IMPENDING BUILDING COLLAPSE
07/01/2000

BY TOM BRENNAN


Building movement most times is very subtle. But a moving building is a collapsing building. For what other signs-in addition to cracks, bulges, leaning walls-should we be looking?
 

mike2810

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
28,601
Reaction score
11,970
Location
arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I did say I think it was just the non-structural curtain wall expanding between its connections due to temperature. Since it was constrained at the connections it could only expand outward. I don't think it had any structural implications.

Thanks for the opinion.

You do have a track record of not answering questions regarding CD. You could at least give your opinion.
 

Tony Szamboti

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 26, 2012
Messages
1,017
Reaction score
338
Location
Philadelphia, Pa metropolitan area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
It isn't "my" concept.

It is the concept accepted by firefighters that building movement is an indicator of instability.

Repeated since you must have missed it...

THE SIGNS OF IMPENDING BUILDING COLLAPSE
07/01/2000

BY TOM BRENNAN


Building movement most times is very subtle. But a moving building is a collapsing building. For what other signs-in addition to cracks, bulges, leaning walls-should we be looking?

Was there a significant movement of WTC 7 as well as a bulge?
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Building Collapse: Learn the Warning Signs

Mar 4, 2009

One of the greatest hazards in firefighting is the threat of collapse in a building. What makes this scenario even more dangerous is that we do not have to be on the inside to get killed. We must be alert on the fire scene, and be aware of the signs of imminent collapse.

Too often we are being hurt or killed as a result of exterior collapse situations. Statistics from the USFA reveal that the number of firefighters lost annually due to residential collapses have tripled since the 1980s — despite a decrease in the average number of annual fatalities during the same time period. Structural collapses can come without any warning, and often are very difficult to predict.

Incident command should consider the following when determining collapse potential:

Structural inadequacy, poor construction, illegal or non engineered renovations
Fire size and location, and conditions on arrival
Age of building
Previous fire
Fire load to structural members
Backdraft or explosions
Engineered lumber, truss joists, nail plates
Load increase as a result of water load
Cutting structural members during venting operations
Cracks or bulges in wall
Water or smoke that pushes through what appears to be a solid masonry wall
Unusual noises coming from building or dwelling
Truck operations notice soft or spongy footing
Weather extremes


Handwave away,,,,
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Signs of Building Collapse

Condition of the Walls

Cracks or bulges in a building's walls are a sign of imminent structural collapse. Walls no longer able to support the weight of the building's roof or upper floors will start to crack under the pressure. In addition, water or smoke that is able to push through walls that would normally have solid masonry are a sure sign that substantial fatigue has occurred.

Signs of Building Collapse | eHow
 

Fledermaus

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
88,925
Reaction score
17,978
Location
Peoples Republic of California AKA Taxifornia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Is it safe to work in the environment you have responded to?

Anytime you enter a disaster or accident situation and building integrity is questionable, there are things to look for to determine the structural soundness.

Determining safety can be as straightforward as examining the outward appearance of the building. Does the building look straight or are the walls leaning or bulging? The closer a wall gets to a 15-degree angle, the more likely it is going to fall.

Others things to consider: Does the structure of the building have cracks? Do you hear creaking sounds, which suggest the building is moving? You also can look for sagging floors and beams. When walls start leaning and are out of plumb or you see cracks in a structure and hear creaking noises to indicate structural movement, you should treat the building as if it is unstable.


Structural Collapse Awareness | EHS Today
 

ozeco41

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
3,514
Reaction score
2,448
Location
Moss Vale, NSW, AU
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The OP is a strawman - the real issue is the validity of the decision by the emergency controller. "Pull the resources - it is probably going anyway and we cannot give priority to trying to save it".

So - implicitly - the choice was "It is a steel framed building and with fires unfought it will have to take its chances - lets get all the people clear so no one is hurt if it falls."

AND Tony's demands for post event re-assessment of the technical issues are irrelevant. The emergency incident is over. The decision that was made was made.

And any decision in a developing emergency has to be made in the live time line of the incident and with the data available at that stage of the event by those making the decisions.

Now - if anyone wants to discuss realities about emergency management practices and pragmatics - let me know. Tony Szamboti's alleged 20/20 clarity in hindsight was not available on the day.

(And he is wrong anyway - but let that pass for now...:roll:)




RE-posted to avoid the trap of doing a "Late Edit" on the previous errant Post #21
 

gerrycan

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
1,822
Reaction score
84
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Signs of Building Collapse

Condition of the Walls

Cracks or bulges in a building's walls are a sign of imminent structural collapse. Walls no longer able to support the weight of the building's roof or upper floors will start to crack under the pressure. In addition, water or smoke that is able to push through walls that would normally have solid masonry are a sure sign that substantial fatigue has occurred.

Signs of Building Collapse | eHow

What materials are mentioned in the paragraph before that one, just for context?
How much of WTC7's weight was supported by masonry ?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom