Could Germany Have Won WWII?[W:513]

[Bodi]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Too much Luftwaffe strength had to be diverted to anti-tank and ground support operations because of the extreme pressure exerted by the Red Army on the Wehrmacht.eace

But with the air power from the West freed up....?

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Good points. I also forgot to mention, in my scenario, not lend lease help that sustained Russia at the beginning until '43.

Couldn't Germany simply have attacked with the bombers used in the Battle of Britain, building airstrips into Russia as they conquered territory? That is what they Americans did in the Pacific to get B-29 strips. There is no way to tell what might have been, I just see Germany beating Russia if it was 1v1. As it was, or if Russia was able to do what they did, Germany was in trouble.

Even with advanced bases they were never that close to Russian industry after it moved east. As to battle of Britain one of the reasons they could never fully win it was because their fighters lacked the range to protect bombers into northern Britain. Ranges got better as war went on but German bomber fleet basically remained a short range tactical air force.

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

:lol:

Agreed. What is it about those that discuss history that seems to make them reasonable and open? I have to add that you one of the most reasonable and open people at DP, IMO.

Thanx though I don't respond so nicely to those who post nonsense, see the CT forum
Well even here when someone claims without Overlord, Russia would have lost then backs it up with posts that do not actually support his theories I kind of treat them differently than those like you who make rational arguments.

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

But with the air power from the West freed up....?

Don't have time ATM maybe tomorrow or if you have time look it up yourself and check the relative strengths of the opposing air forces. Even with all western aircraft diverted east if memory serves me the Germans were outnumbered by 1943.
Could be wrong, like I said have to look it up but if memory serves....

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

But with the air power from the West freed up....?

Interesting question.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Thanx though I don't respond so nicely to those who post nonsense, see the CT forum
Well even here when someone claims without Overlord, Russia would have lost then backs it up with posts that do not actually support his theories I kind of treat them differently than those like you who make rational arguments.

I was just thinking that as I was walking back to the cpu... :lol:

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Right, but it wasn't about the preservation of life. It was the preservation of strategic resources. Stalin had no problem expending Soviet lives when there were Soviet lives to spare and it reinforced the regime. As the war swung towards its conclusion the need to spare Soviet lives for a future conflict with the Allies and for the reconstruction of the Soviet Union figured prominently in Soviet planning.

From the perspective of winning the war, with the Red Army intact, I agree.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

My personal conclusion has been that Guderian and Manstein were the two best on any side. Stilwell may have been the best American, but he never really had the resources to show it. Among the Russians I prefer Rokossovsky, but that may only be because he was the general Stalin didn't favor. British generalship was as bad as their equipment. eace

There were other great American generals, to be sure--Stilwell, Truscott, Abrams--but at the corps/army level few displayed the same talent and tenacity that Patton did.

The Brits had the only tank that could kill a Tiger, so their equipments weren't nearly as bad as their generals.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Lend-lease helped and no mistake...but Overlord took place over a year AFTER the back of the Wehrmacht was broken at Stalingrad...and the strategic bombing did not have that much of an effect because the level of production of tanks, etc., did not fall, but kept increasing. The bombers in those days were simply not accurate enough - especially when the pilot's watching the ME-109's and FW-190's shoot down their fellow bombers...and the P-51 escorts did not arrive to provide protection all the way to the bombing target until mid- to late 1943.

No, guy, as much as you want to believe otherwise, except for the Lend-Lease program and Hitler's decision to delay Barbarossa by a couple months, the Soviets pretty much beat the Wehrmacht on their own.

You can keep trying to pump up the Soviets, all you want, but it'll never be true...

Operation NEPTUNE (Naval Aspects of Operation OVERLORD) Administrative History (1948).

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Thanx though I don't respond so nicely to those who post nonsense, see the CT forum
Well even here when someone claims without Overlord, Russia would have lost then backs it up with posts that do not actually support his theories I kind of treat them differently than those like you who make rational arguments.

I posted supporting information. You posted lip.

I'll say it again, you won't find ANY credible historian that will support what you're claiming. If I'm so far off base, you should be able to post dozens of links.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Read this:

Stalin's General: The Life of Georgy Zhukov: Geoffrey Roberts: 9781400066926: Amazon.com: Books

...and this:

When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler (Modern War Studies): David M. Glantz, Jonathan M. House: 9780700608997: Amazon.com: Books

How about you post the specific passages that prove me wrong?

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I posted supporting information. You posted lip.

I'll say it again, you won't find ANY credible historian that will support what you're claiming. If I'm so far off base, you should be able to post dozens of links.

The Germans deployed approximately two thirds of their ground power in the East, so certainly the Red Army bore the greatest burden. On the other hand, the US fought the Japanese with negligible assistance from the other allies, so there was enough to go around.eace

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The Germans deployed approximately two thirds of their ground power in the East, so certainly the Red Army bore the greatest burden. On the other hand, the US fought the Japanese with negligible assistance from the other allies, so there was enough to go around.eace

Everyone had their burden to bear and without any one of The Big Three, Germany wouldn't have lost the war. Those two things, I'll never dispute.

What I do dispute--and is totally untrue--is that the Sooviets could win without The US and Britain.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Everyone had their burden to bear and without any one of The Big Three, Germany wouldn't have lost the war. Those two things, I'll never dispute.

What I do dispute--and is totally untrue--is that the Sooviets could win without The US and Britain.

Although it can't be proved, your point is sound. John Keegan calculated German ground units had more combat power than any others.

 

[Bodi]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Everyone had their burden to bear and without any one of The Big Three, Germany wouldn't have lost the war. Those two things, I'll never dispute.

What I do dispute--and is totally untrue--is that the Sooviets could win without The US and Britain.

Agreed. None of the three could have beaten Germany alone... the USA could have if they cared and had 20 years of Total War, perhaps.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Agreed. None of the three could have beaten Germany alone... the USA could have if they cared and had 20 years of Total War, perhaps.

Let's try a different proposition. The Soviet Union could have won without the US, and the US could have won without the Soviet Union, but neither could have won without Britain. Brits would have been a useful distraction for the Soviets and a critical logistics and staging base for the US. eace

 

[Bodi]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Let's try a different proposition. The Soviet Union could have won without the US, and the US could have won without the Soviet Union, but neither could have won without Britain. Brits would have been a useful distraction for the Soviets and a critical logistics and staging base for the US. eace

Interesting... and going further, the Brits could never have defeated the Germans on their own.

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I posted supporting information. You posted lip.

I'll say it again, you won't find ANY credible historian that will support what you're claiming. If I'm so far off base, you should be able to post dozens of links.

I did post links. Go back and look at post 901.
However posting links that said Stalin wanted a 2nd front in no way shape or form means that Russia would have lost without Overlord
Or in other words you haven't posted anything to support your position.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Interesting... and going further, the Brits could never have defeated the Germans on their own.

Agreed. Brits knew that.

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Everyone had their burden to bear and without any one of The Big Three, Germany wouldn't have lost the war. Those two things, I'll never dispute.

What I do dispute--and is totally untrue--is that the Sooviets could win without The US and Britain.

Total rubbish.
Germany maybe possibly somehow could have beaten Britain alone or even possibly Russia alone (doubt it but possible) However I cant see anyway of Russia and Germany fighting without going through Poland so no real chance Britain wouldn't be involved.
There is No way in Hell Britain and Russia vs Germany results in German victory. America just hastened the inevitable.
You apparently have no clue about the logistics, industrial capacities and the manpower issues involved. But then what would I expect from someone who thinks Stalin asking for a 2nd front means without Overlord Germany would have beaten Russia.
I would say back up this nonsense with sources but you have no clue what a source is.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I did post links. Go back and look at post 901.
However posting links that said Stalin wanted a 2nd front in no way shape or form means that Russia would have lost without Overlord
Or in other words you haven't posted anything to support your position.

The first link you posted was an editorial by Mao Tse Tung, on marxists.com - marxists.

The second claimed that the turning point of the war was in 1941.

We can go ahead and discount both of those, I believe.

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The first link you posted was an editorial by Mao Tse Tung, on marxists.com - marxists.

The second claimed that the turning point of the war was in 1941.

We can go ahead and discount both of those, I believe.

Discount them if you want they actually are germane to the conversation unlike your link that in no way shape or form supports your pathetic and failed analysis.
So I got 2 links you don't like but actually support me and more you refuse to comment on and you have 0 links that support you.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Let's try a different proposition. The Soviet Union could have won without the US, and the US could have won without the Soviet Union, but neither could have won without Britain. Brits would have been a useful distraction for the Soviets and a critical logistics and staging base for the US. eace

I don't believe that any two of the big three could have defeated Germany, even with the collasal mistakes that Hitler made.

All one needs to do is look at the contribution made by each country, then imagine the outcome in Germany's favor, to realize that.

No United States, no Lend-Lease, no Overlord, no Italian Front.

No Britain, no Project Ultra, no forward staging area for Overlord, no North Africa Campaign, half the bombing out of the picture.

No Soviet Union, no Stalingrad, no Kursk, no tieing up of hundreds of German divisions on the Eastern Front.

 

[apdst]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Discount them if you want they actually are germane to the conversation unlike your link that in no way shape or form supports your pathetic and failed analysis.
So I got 2 links you don't like but actually support me and more you refuse to comment on and you have 0 links that support you.

An editorial by Mao is nothing more than Communist propaganda.

 

[Quag]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

An editorial by Mao is nothing more than Communist propaganda.

A post by apdst is nothing more than irrelevant propaganda.


But seriously, at least it actually talks about what I'm saying unlike your source that has nothing to do with your ridiculous and still unsupported position. But go dismiss it because you don't like Mao, move on to the next and the next and the next. They all support my position that Overlord wasn't necessary for ultimate defeat of Germany. I am still waiting for you to post 1 source that says without Overlord Russia would have lost.