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Could Germany Have Won WWII?[W:513]

Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I always wonder why people don't instead look at, why did Hitler attack France and the West in the first place. Why did Germany not attack and do away with Russia first. Through Chzechoslovakia or their Ally, Romania? They could have amassed troops and attacked, tacking out Russia and then turning to the West. He could have completely ignored Poland for years and made a sneak attack on France. Essentially Island Hope around Europe. Solidify Italy as a power instead of seeing their pathetic army get their asses handed to them over and over. There are lots of ways that they could have done things much better.

Hitler had a bone to pick with the French.

Hitler served in the trenches during the WWI and was furious over the German surrender to France in that railroad car.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Perfect answer. Stalin only threw 35 infantry divisions to Finland and 6 tank brigades. Nobody expected a big war

That probably still felt like overkill.

I mean 150,00-200,000 Finns against the Red Army?
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Most people say that Hitler lost the war when he attacked Russia. Of cause attacking Russia while Britain was still in the war and thus having to fight on two fronts was foolish, Germany could have won the won in the east in 1941 if Hitler did not demand that army group center stop its march on Moscow, turn south and take Kiev. If left to drive on Moscow, army group center would have took the city and with it the hart of the USSSR.

No one has ever been able to conquer (win) the whole world. Much less keep ahold of it. And no one ever will. Even with the US being the number one super power in the entire world we would still fall to the concerted efforts of the entire world.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Hitler had a bone to pick with the French. Hitler served in the trenches during the WWI and was furious over the German surrender to France in that railroad car.
Correct. I meant at the same time. He should have dealt with the East first. That was what my entire post was about.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Most people say that Hitler lost the war when he attacked Russia. Of cause attacking Russia while Britain was still in the war and thus having to fight on two fronts was foolish, Germany could have won the won in the east in 1941 if Hitler did not demand that army group center stop its march on Moscow, turn south and take Kiev. If left to drive on Moscow, army group center would have took the city and with it the hart of the USSSR.

I do not think so, it is an big pressure on a country to occupy a great number of countries. Also, there was not enough natural resources to keep all those people fed, warm and docile while still keeping the army, navy and airforce active with enough guns/ammunition/fuel/replacement parts/cold weather clothes etc.

The attack on Russia just made the end of the Third Reich come around a lot faster. It was a war that could not be won. Russia was just too large, there were just too many Russians and the Russians made some smart decisions.

They employed the tactic of scorched earth, burning bridges and other infrastructure, burning agricultural fields to a crisp and moving big factories to behind the Ural mountains. Far away from the German airforce and artellery. Combine this with a lot of natural resources to feed a war machine that made guns/tanks/planes/katusha rockets/etc.etc.etc. in great numbers and a population under a tyrannical communist leader who didn't care if 10 or 20 million people died fighting the germans, there were more where those soldiers came from.

Combine that with Russians winters and the Germans having no or almost no winter clothes for the soldiers all spelled the beginning of the end for Adolf and his buddies.

Another issue that speeded up Hitlers defeat was the refusal to pull back/hitlers orders to fight to the last man and the fact that Hitler was a mad and refused to head the warnings of his generals and did all the wrong things at all the wrong moments. Stalin was also a madman but he had the resources to sometimes ignore his generals but at times also listened to them.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Excellent post. Hitler could no more have conquered Russia than Napoleon a hundred years or so before him. It's too big, too populous, the weather is too bad, the existing infrastructure at the time did not support heavily mechanized warfare, they had no heavy bomber, their supply routes were way too long, etc. etc. And the Russians possessed very effective weapons - especially the T-34 tank which could be produced in very large numbers and was tough and durable.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Excellent post. Hitler could no more have conquered Russia than Napoleon a hundred years or so before him. It's too big, too populous, the weather is too bad, the existing infrastructure at the time did not support heavily mechanized warfare, they had no heavy bomber, their supply routes were way too long, etc. etc. And the Russians possessed very effective weapons - especially the T-34 tank which could be produced in very large numbers and was tough and durable.

The german tanks were superior to any other tank out there in the 2nd world war. It was far superior to any US/UK/Rusky tank out there. It was it's saving grace but also it's downfall. The achievements the tanks were capable of were brilliant but not enough were made. They did not have the endless fuel supply the russians and americans/english had and in the russian winter, these tanks were not that reliable.

The complexity of the tank meant a long and difficult production. This while being bombed almost daily by US/UK planes. The T34 was not as impressive as any of the german tanks but was still a very decent tank. The good thing about it was that the production process was easy, lots of resources and no pesky nazi bombers to hamper production. They pumped them off the line like they were easter candy. They were also reasonably easy to learn to drive and hey presto, massive tank army's.

The problem with the Luftwaffe was not enough good bombers and they spent too much time and effort on the Battle of Britain. Another stupid german idea, no doubt inspired or decided by Hitler. They lost masses of planes and even more flying crews.

Add to that the specific challanges of Russia, the long supply lines created by the russians due to scorched earth and a leader that was there more for political reasons than military genius IMHO. Goring was not a briliant leader of the luftwaffe and did not stand up to Hitler when it was needed.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The german tanks were superior to any other tank out there in the 2nd world war. It was far superior to any US/UK/Rusky tank out there.

Except for the PII, PIIIC, PIIID, PIVD, 38t.






It was it's saving grace but also it's downfall. The achievements the tanks were capable of were brilliant but not enough were made. They did not have the endless fuel supply the russians and americans/english had and in the russian winter, these tanks were not that reliable.

The complexity of the tank meant a long and difficult production. This while being bombed almost daily by US/UK planes. The T34 was not as impressive as any of the german tanks but was still a very decent tank. The good thing about it was that the production process was easy, lots of resources and no pesky nazi bombers to hamper production. They pumped them off the line like they were easter candy. They were also reasonably easy to learn to drive and hey presto, massive tank army's.

The problem with the Luftwaffe was not enough good bombers and they spent too much time and effort on the Battle of Britain. Another stupid german idea, no doubt inspired or decided by Hitler. They lost masses of planes and even more flying crews.

Add to that the specific challanges of Russia, the long supply lines created by the russians due to scorched earth and a leader that was there more for political reasons than military genius IMHO. Goring was not a briliant leader of the luftwaffe and did not stand up to Hitler when it was needed.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Excellent post. Hitler could no more have conquered Russia than Napoleon a hundred years or so before him. It's too big, too populous, the weather is too bad, the existing infrastructure at the time did not support heavily mechanized warfare, they had no heavy bomber, their supply routes were way too long, etc. etc. And the Russians possessed very effective weapons - especially the T-34 tank which could be produced in very large numbers and was tough and durable.

Actually, if one looks, Napoleon actually got further (he got to Moskva for God's sakes, only to find that the Russians have burnt it down), the Germans in WWI had much more meaningful gains (they had Finland, the Baltic states, the whole of Ukraine, Byelorussia, with only a fraction of the casualties due to the collapse of the Russian Empire).
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Except for the PII, PIIIC, PIIID, PIVD, 38t.

The 38t is German :doh
I've never heard of the PII, PIIIC, PIIID, or the PIVD. If they are American, then :doh. All it took for an M-4 Sherman to be destoyed was one single shot from an Sdkfz or any 88 gun
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

I am thinking if the Germans had got rid of Hitler just after the French takeover,
there may have been a chance.
This also would start a question, of without Hitler, would Germany continue the war?

One of my favorite stories was when the Czar heard Napoleon had left Moscow,
He ordered his top general to attack. On his way out the General said to his
aid "I think I will let General Winter fight this next battle."
 
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Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The 38t is German :doh

It was in 1939

I've never heard of the PII, PIIIC, PIIID, or the PIVD. If they are American, then :doh. All it took for an M-4 Sherman to be destoyed was one single shot from an Sdkfz or any 88 gun

Well the PIII and the PIV were the most numerously produced German tanks.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Actually, if one looks, Napoleon actually got further (he got to Moskva for God's sakes, only to find that the Russians have burnt it down), the Germans in WWI had much more meaningful gains (they had Finland, the Baltic states, the whole of Ukraine, Byelorussia, with only a fraction of the casualties due to the collapse of the Russian Empire).

Yeah, one could say they were "stabbed in the back" for losing WW1.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Excellent post. Hitler could no more have conquered Russia than Napoleon a hundred years or so before him. It's too big, too populous, the weather is too bad, the existing infrastructure at the time did not support heavily mechanized warfare, they had no heavy bomber, their supply routes were way too long, etc. etc. And the Russians possessed very effective weapons - especially the T-34 tank which could be produced in very large numbers and was tough and durable.

The only reason that the Germans wouldn't have been able to conquer Russia, is because their lines of communication were too long and vulnerable.

The whole, "Russian", winter thing is revisionist bull****.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The german tanks were superior to any other tank out there in the 2nd world war. It was far superior to any US/UK/Rusky tank out there. It was it's saving grace but also it's downfall. The achievements the tanks were capable of were brilliant but not enough were made. They did not have the endless fuel supply the russians and americans/english had and in the russian winter, these tanks were not that reliable.

The complexity of the tank meant a long and difficult production. This while being bombed almost daily by US/UK planes. The T34 was not as impressive as any of the german tanks but was still a very decent tank. The good thing about it was that the production process was easy, lots of resources and no pesky nazi bombers to hamper production. They pumped them off the line like they were easter candy. They were also reasonably easy to learn to drive and hey presto, massive tank army's.

The problem with the Luftwaffe was not enough good bombers and they spent too much time and effort on the Battle of Britain. Another stupid german idea, no doubt inspired or decided by Hitler. They lost masses of planes and even more flying crews.

Add to that the specific challanges of Russia, the long supply lines created by the russians due to scorched earth and a leader that was there more for political reasons than military genius IMHO. Goring was not a briliant leader of the luftwaffe and did not stand up to Hitler when it was needed.

German tanks were garbage. They were either too slow, too undergunned, too unreliable, or required to much maintanance and too many support personel to do that maintanance. The Tiger required an average of 10 mechanics, per tank.

Let's not forget that the Germans got their armored tactics ass backwards: they saw infantry as support for the tanks instead of the other way around.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The 38t is German :doh
I've never heard of the PII, PIIIC, PIIID, or the PIVD. If they are American, then :doh. All it took for an M-4 Sherman to be destoyed was one single shot from an Sdkfz or any 88 gun

"P" is for, "Panzer". Actually, it's Pkfw
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

German tanks were garbage. They were either too slow, too undergunned, too unreliable, or required to much maintanance and too many support personel to do that maintanance. The Tiger required an average of 10 mechanics, per tank.

Let's not forget that the Germans got their armored tactics ass backwards: they saw infantry as support for the tanks instead of the other way around.

While German tanks had down sides, they certainly weren't "garbage." And I don't know of anyone that would ever say they were "undergunned." The 88 on the Tiger was a devastating weapon. It's true the Tiger was a finicky beast that needed too much attention and maintenance, but when it was working it was a terror on the battlefield. The Panther had plenty of speed, could be mass-produced, and had an effective long-barreled 75. This gun was much better than the Sherman's gun. The US and Russia defeated them with maneuvers and sheer numbers. The Sherman and T-34 could out-maneuver the German tanks with speed, but that and numbers were their only advantage.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Yes, Germany could have won. If they had not slaughtered Jews, including Einstein's own sister, Germany would have had the scientists to complete the atom bomb AND Einstein, previously a pacifist, would not have sent the critical letter to FDA that lead to the astronomically expensive Manhattan Project. With Germany have the V2 and adding atomic bombs, Germany would have quickly forced the UK and Russia to surrender and ultimately the USA.

It is "justice" that the holocaust cost Germany the war.

All the what-ifs of battle tactics as just what-ifs. Because if you change one aspect (not attacking Russia, invading the UK despite the known huge loses in the crossing etc) do not work because that would alter all else that happened.

But I think it fair to say that given how close Germany came to having the A-bomb anyway, but for the holocaust Germany would have had both the A-bomb and the first intercontinental ballistic missiles and that would have won the war ais a certainty. Everything else is just what-ifs leading to then unknown other ifs.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

German tanks were garbage. They were either too slow, too undergunned, too unreliable, or required to much maintanance and too many support personel to do that maintanance. The Tiger required an average of 10 mechanics, per tank.

Let's not forget that the Germans got their armored tactics ass backwards: they saw infantry as support for the tanks instead of the other way around.

That 'backasswards' tactics is what defeated the French, Belgium, and British armies.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Yes, Germany could have won. If they had not slaughtered Jews, including Einstein's own sister, Germany would have had the scientists to complete the atom bomb AND Einstein, previously a pacifist, would not have sent the critical letter to FDA that lead to the astronomically expensive Manhattan Project. With Germany have the V2 and adding atomic bombs, Germany would have quickly forced the UK and Russia to surrender and ultimately the USA.

Oh brother.

Einstein didn't even work on the atom bomb, and his sister is who again?
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

While German tanks had down sides, they certainly weren't "garbage."

The ones at the beginning of the war would.

Play WWIIONLINE (best tank simulator with spalling, detailed plate thickness, including component damage, ricochettes, obliqueness of projectile) and die to a Panhard or Daimler scoutcar sporting a 2 pounder. They can easily take out the PII, PIIIE, PIVD, Stug-B. Well with the PIIIE/StugB you've got to drive up close to the flank with the Panhard's puny 25mm gun, but with the Daimler you don't. It's pathetic really, especially for an online game that's suppose to be fair.



Here's a crappy light french tank (640 of them in WW2) H-35 taking on the best of the German early war tanks.

First kill is a PIVD, 75mm short barrel with very thin armor.

Second kill is on the 75mm short barrel Stug-B that has heavy front armor, but light side and rear armor, which has to turn to shoot cause it's got no turret hehe.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

The ones at the beginning of the war would.

Play WWIIONLINE (best tank simulator with spalling, detailed plate thickness, including component damage, ricochettes, obliqueness of projectile) and die to a Panhard or Daimler scoutcar sporting a 2 pounder. They can easily take out the PII, PIIIE, PIVD, Stug-B. Well with the PIIIE/StugB you've got to drive up close to the flank with the Panhard's puny 25mm gun, but with the Daimler you don't. It's pathetic really, especially for an online game that's suppose to be fair.

Here's a crappy light french tank (640 of them in WW2) H-35 taking on the best of the German early war tanks.

First kill is a PIVD, 75mm short barrel with very thin armor.

Second kill is on the 75mm short barrel Stug-B that has heavy front armor, but light side and rear armor, which has to turn to shoot cause it's got no turret hehe.

I'll grant that the Panzer II and III weren't anything to write home about, but on the other hand nobody else had anything better. The Panzer IV was all 'round pretty good tank. Anyone can name many shortcomings of the tank, but once again, it's contemporaries were even worse (Grant/Lee). It's weaknesses really began to show when the Sherman showed up. But by then, Germany was deploying Tigers, and that changed everything.
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

It was in 1939



Well the PIII and the PIV were the most numerously produced German tanks.

Surely you mean the PzKpfws (:doh sorry, didn't realize that the P stood for Panzerkampsfwagen)
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Yes, Germany could have won. If they had not slaughtered Jews, including Einstein's own sister, Germany would have had the scientists to complete the atom bomb AND Einstein, previously a pacifist, would not have sent the critical letter to FDA that lead to the astronomically expensive Manhattan Project. With Germany have the V2 and adding atomic bombs, Germany would have quickly forced the UK and Russia to surrender and ultimately the USA.

It is "justice" that the holocaust cost Germany the war.

All the what-ifs of battle tactics as just what-ifs. Because if you change one aspect (not attacking Russia, invading the UK despite the known huge loses in the crossing etc) do not work because that would alter all else that happened.

But I think it fair to say that given how close Germany came to having the A-bomb anyway, but for the holocaust Germany would have had both the A-bomb and the first intercontinental ballistic missiles and that would have won the war ais a certainty. Everything else is just what-ifs leading to then unknown other ifs.

The projects for the V1 and the V2 were also astronomically expensive, the resources that went to it would have produced an astonishing 24000 more planes. God knows what the Luftwaffe could have done with 24000 planes, even if there weren't fuel for them. It would have taken the entire German war effort to produce the atomic bomb under 5 years. Stop with the hyperbole
 
Re: Could Germany Have Won WWII?

Oh brother.
Einstein didn't even work on the atom bomb, and his sister is who again?

His sister, Jewish, was killed in a concentration camp in the holocaust. This took Einstein away from his totally pacifist, not involvement attitude about the war. Einstein's role was sending a letter to FDR warning him of the danger of Germany obtaining the bomb. He had the scientific reputation for it to gain attention.

Einstein's Letters to Roosevelt
The letter that launched the arms race. A warning to President Roosevelt of the possibility of constructing "extremely powerful bombs of a new type" with hints that the German government might be doing just that. Addressed and dated Peconic, Long Island, August 2nd 1939, it was most likely written by Leo Szilard, the scientist who invented the chain reaction. Nevertheless, Einstein took full responsibility for its consequences, calling it "the greatest mistake" of his life.
 
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